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So who is bummed about the lockout? II

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11-14-2012, 09:13 AM
  #451
bozak911
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The part where the PA is saying they want paid for an 82 game schedule...

I thought that had been de-bunked?

Even D.Fehr isn't that unreasonable to demand that and stick to it. I believe his statement is more along the lines of; Let's get the core economics figured out for the 82 game schedule, agree to that, and then we can *talk* about pro-rating it.

Everyone and their dogs know that the players are not getting paid for the games missed. The new math 65% of last year's HRR that some pro-league analysts have been tossing around is a deception. Sure, if the PA wants their full contracts in an abbreviated season, that number would be 65%, if and only if the games started Dec 1st. That isn't what the PA is asking for, though.

To me, it makes sense. Agree to the core economics based on an 82-game season and then let the NHL produce the schedule (re-aligned) and then pro-rate the salaries based on 82 games - # of games lost = this season's salary pro-rated.

/shrug

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11-14-2012, 09:31 AM
  #452
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the 3 big issues that Burnside reported on being the divide is Core economic issues, contracting rights, and Who pays for the damage of the lockout.

to me the last one seems like the PA is going to want the owners to foot the bill for the damage since they locked out the players.

you can bet Fehr will use the "we were willing to play" rhetoric to drive his point, imho they should split it 50/50 since both sides are equally responsible. But non the less that could be a landmine of an issue if Fehr insists and sells the PA that they are the victims and it's not right they pay for something they didn't do.

http://espn.go.com/nhl/story/_/id/86...akthrough-made

http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/i...-where-were-we

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is just how the NHL and NHLPA will agree to share in the pain of the damage caused by the lockout when it comes to adjusting the core economic language to a shortened season. No question the league will see this as a 50-50 proposition, since both sides in the league’s view are equally guilty of being unable to negotiate a new deal. But I suspect the NHLPA will make this an interesting issue by pointing out that it was the NHL that locked out the players and triggered this lockout. Fehr has set up the league for this moment by repeatedly suggesting since last June that the players would have been willing to play this season while CBA negotiations were ongoing. So yes, another hot potato in the offing, another hurdle to a deal.

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11-14-2012, 09:34 AM
  #453
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bozak911 View Post
The part where the PA is saying they want paid for an 82 game schedule...

I thought that had been de-bunked?

Even D.Fehr isn't that unreasonable to demand that and stick to it. I believe his statement is more along the lines of; Let's get the core economics figured out for the 82 game schedule, agree to that, and then we can *talk* about pro-rating it.

Everyone and their dogs know that the players are not getting paid for the games missed. The new math 65% of last year's HRR that some pro-league analysts have been tossing around is a deception. Sure, if the PA wants their full contracts in an abbreviated season, that number would be 65%, if and only if the games started Dec 1st. That isn't what the PA is asking for, though.

To me, it makes sense. Agree to the core economics based on an 82-game season and then let the NHL produce the schedule (re-aligned) and then pro-rate the salaries based on 82 games - # of games lost = this season's salary pro-rated.

/shrug
I agree that it's unreasonable for the players to ask for that, but the day after Don responded with the agree to the core and then pro-rate, his brother in an interview stated there were 3 main points left to deal with, and that third one being:

...and who absorbs the costs associated with the lockout.

That makes me think they want more salary paid than would be calculated with normal pro-rating. I'm sure they'll argue the owners locked them out, so it's the owners fault for any money the players lost and they want some/all of that back.

I think the Fehr brothers are using full year/pro-rate pay as a bargaining chip, not as an afterthought, no matter what they say publicly. If it were as easy as 'pro-rated to number of games played' it would have been said that way at some point in negotiations and there would be no question about it. If the PA has never stated it that way it's for a reason, they are looking to get more than a regular pro-rated share.

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11-14-2012, 10:05 AM
  #454
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don't kid yourself...the PA was/is going to try to make the players eat "the costs associated with the lockout". As the owners are already eating every other cost (staff, utilities, make-goods on sponsors, season ticket refunds, etc) what on gods green earth do you suppose Fehr is talking about. Its the same vagaries that are probably keeping the players lulled because there is room at the surface for interpretation.

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11-14-2012, 10:06 AM
  #455
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owners...i meant owners eat the cost. damn no edit.

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11-14-2012, 10:06 AM
  #456
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Fehr told Russo that the 82-game schedule was to be used for structure only.

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11-14-2012, 11:10 AM
  #457
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bozak911 View Post
The part where the PA is saying they want paid for an 82 game schedule...

I thought that had been de-bunked?

Even D.Fehr isn't that unreasonable to demand that and stick to it. I believe his statement is more along the lines of; Let's get the core economics figured out for the 82 game schedule, agree to that, and then we can *talk* about pro-rating it.

Everyone and their dogs know that the players are not getting paid for the games missed. The new math 65% of last year's HRR that some pro-league analysts have been tossing around is a deception. Sure, if the PA wants their full contracts in an abbreviated season, that number would be 65%, if and only if the games started Dec 1st. That isn't what the PA is asking for, though.

To me, it makes sense. Agree to the core economics based on an 82-game season and then let the NHL produce the schedule (re-aligned) and then pro-rate the salaries based on 82 games - # of games lost = this season's salary pro-rated.

/shrug
When and where was it debunked? I know the associated claim (paid for full 82 game schedule and 5% raise every year) was debunked. But in debunking it, the result was "paid for full 82 game schedule and 5% raise over the course of the agreement."

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11-14-2012, 11:15 AM
  #458
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarick View Post
Fehr told Russo that the 82-game schedule was to be used for structure only.
so what do you suppose the costs associated with the lockout would be if not player's salaries. Given that the owners are already paying for everything else i can think of.

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11-14-2012, 11:19 AM
  #459
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rafterman View Post
I agree that it's unreasonable for the players to ask for that, but the day after Don responded with the agree to the core and then pro-rate, his brother in an interview stated there were 3 main points left to deal with, and that third one being:

...and who absorbs the costs associated with the lockout.
That's a silly question. Of course the owners already "absorb the cost of the lockout." They don't receive revenue for games not played (with the exception of the NBC deal) so they are already eating the cost of the lockout. They still have to pay their rent. They still have to pay many of their employees (although many of the lower level workers are furloughed). They have plenty of costs they have to pay despite not receiving revenue from games. By the simple structure of pro sports, the owners are paying the cost of the lockout no matter what.

As for the players' share, the players didn't play, so why should they receive pay for things they didn't do? That's like claiming "I wanted to work more hours, but my employer didn't schedule me so he should have to pay me for the hours I was willing to work."

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11-14-2012, 11:26 AM
  #460
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It's just another bargaining chip for the players.

Because they are receiving very few new benefits from this CBA compared to the prior CBA, their strategy has just been to dig their heels in the ground and resist the pull to the NHL's position. They are going to use every concession against every other concession.

Remember, there's a big difference about what's being said in private versus said in public. To my knowledge nobody on these boards has shown any proof of being involved in the CBA talks, and until that changes, it's all opinion and speculation. Any of these public quotes may or may not be true or misleading.

Really, until someone breaks the silence and/or there's a finalized deal announced, we won't know anything for sure If getting up in arms or self-righteous about PR stunts is what gets your jollies, knock yourself out...but it's too exhausting for me to get worked up over anymore.

Basically, call me when there's a deal.

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11-14-2012, 11:41 AM
  #461
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I just find it funny that there's virtually zero criticism of Bettman or the league from Squidz (and to a lesser extent you as well Bozak) while nearly every move made by Fehr or the NHLPA is condemned.
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What has the league done that should be criticized?
Waiting

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Old
11-14-2012, 12:11 PM
  #462
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Quote:
Originally Posted by squidz View Post
When and where was it debunked? I know the associated claim (paid for full 82 game schedule and 5% raise every year) was debunked. But in debunking it, the result was "paid for full 82 game schedule and 5% raise over the course of the agreement."
If that is the case, then the NHLPA needs to sit and spin on a broken bottle.

I need to find the quote from Strang about it... let me dig...

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11-14-2012, 12:15 PM
  #463
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Originally Posted by bozak911 View Post
If that is the case, then the NHLPA needs to sit and spin on a broken bottle.

I need to find the quote from Strang about it... let me dig...
It's completely possible that it was debunked and I didn't see it, but I haven't seen it debunked.

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11-14-2012, 12:21 PM
  #464
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/sigh

my digging will have to wait. they enhanced the blocked domain list last night.

no, there is no feasible way around this, because the ****ers also have tunnel sniffers set up... time to start looking at alternatives again...

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11-14-2012, 12:33 PM
  #465
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Star & Tribune

Quote:
It was also reported on Twitter by the New York Post that the union was seeking full 2012-13 salaries even in a shortened season and regardless of league revenues. I was led to believe this, too, and remember again, revenues will surely fall due to the lockout.

The Post also added that in addition, they wanted 5 percent growth or more than $1.9 billion, and this would eat 65-67 percent of league revenue during a shortened season.

However, Fehr said tonight that the union was trying to put a structure in place with the NHL before “dealing with the effects of the lockout.”

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11-14-2012, 01:04 PM
  #466
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That doesn't refute the full season salary claim.

The 5% increase over 2011-2012 portion was debunked. But in that, Fehr denies nothing with regards to the alleged demand for full season salaries. Russo sets it up in a way that implies the players aren't asking for that, but never actually makes that claim, nor provides any evidence of it.

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11-14-2012, 07:08 PM
  #467
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Jarick: Every time I start thinking about anything that has come out of the mouth of D.Fehr... this pops into my head.



I also do not have the baggage of having been a baseball fan and I went into this with an open mind. After Fehr announced that he didn't want to negotiate a year before the 05 CBA expired because he "wanted to educate" himself...

Frankly, that screamed to me of; "I want to brainwash the players."

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11-14-2012, 07:12 PM
  #468
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I think representatives from both sides want what's best for both sides.

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11-14-2012, 07:43 PM
  #469
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Another humorous part about this gong show is that Fehr wants this league to be in the mold of the MLB. Who just also happened to have a team completely gut their entire roster (and most importantly, $$$) just yesterday. Seems like a healthy model.

Pretty much resigned to the fact they won't be playing this year. And quite frankly, this lockout has changed my opinion on a lot of players in this league. Some of which I'm thrilled that they likely won't be able to find themselves a job whenever the league does start back up again.

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11-14-2012, 09:44 PM
  #470
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I think representatives from both sides want what's best for both sides.
Wrong. Union reps can't possibly adequately represent all players. There are too many conflicts of interest. They can only represent a small minority.

That is a fundamental flaw of all unions. One size does not fit all. Ask any attorney - you always get your own lawyer.

So the trick is to beat everybody in line and make the party across the table appear to be the devil.

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11-14-2012, 09:56 PM
  #471
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We don't know what goes on behind closed doors, but we do know results: no hockey, the deal will be around 50/50, and the players have already lost a ton of money.

This is all on Fehr. He could have walked into the NHL in August and gotten a better deal than he's going to get. All the league really cares about is the 50/50. Give them that in the summer and you get to to reject most the contract stuff.

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11-15-2012, 06:43 PM
  #472
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looks promising....

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11-15-2012, 11:01 PM
  #473
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No new talks for 2 weeks?http://www.startribune.com/sports/wi.../57299562.html

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11-16-2012, 12:43 AM
  #474
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That's an awesome photo the Times used. A couple of my buddies were there and said it was awesome.

I don't really have much to say about the lockout that hasn't been said. One thing I was just thinking about though....back in August-ish....The players had TONS of support (myself included). Funny, where's all that support now? Way to shoot yourselves in the foot. WTG Fehr.

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11-16-2012, 06:49 AM
  #475
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I'm starting to doubt there will be a season at all, even the NFL/NBA negotiations they gave fans constant hope, when talks stalled they went to a mediator, in this **** fight both parties seem to want their way at any cost, owners have been hellbent on getting money back on existing deals, now they also want contracting rights while the PA has been hellbent on getting their way to the tune of never at all indicating they are ok with anything NHL has proposed thus far.

in all honesty i just want NHL hockey, i hope we get it sooner rather then later, but as far as this season goes each day that passes i grow weary of a deal being done.

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