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Off-season Madness the 3rd: Jeffrey Loria taketh and Jeffrey Loria giveth away

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Old
11-14-2012, 10:14 AM
  #451
YMCMBeaulieu
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Logan Morrison ‏@LoMoMarlins

hey @JonHeymanCBS I just read that we got mathematically eliminated from the 2013 playoffs. Is that true?


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Old
11-14-2012, 10:16 AM
  #452
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Originally Posted by HockeyGuruPitka View Post
I couldnít have said it better myself. I posted on this forum a week or two ago voicing my displeasure with the state of the organization and exactly what you described happened. Everyone is entitled to their opinion; however HF only accepts the popular belief. It almost seems like a popularity contest among the most active users.

Itís odd because those who were quick to rebut and defend the blue jays then are now claiming that the franchise is *officially* relevant... Essentially admitting that the pessimists (like myself) were right.
No, you were utterly wrong because you discounted out of hand that the Jays had spent the past three years positioning themselves to make precisely this kind of move. You were routed last week because you made baseless claims founded in emotional pessimism rather than objective evaluation.

The Jays are relevant contenders today precisely because of the work that Anthopolous and Beeston have done over the past three years - work that many posters have been relentless about criticizing, as you did, to the exclusion of any other discussion.

It's not - and has never been - about the "popular" belief. Quite the contrary, as the most popular belief happened to be the ill-founded one you were espousing, which is precisely why those who held a more objective view had gotten seriously tired of poking holes in it. That's why the response you received was as vitriolic as it was. You didn't necessarily earn that response on your own, but you can understand why some posters would have over-reacted to yet another "Johnny-come-lately" parroting the same tired and fallacious arguments to support their pessimistic - and, it has been proven, utterly wrong - opinion as fact.

But that was then, this is now. The debate has been resolved, and after everyone's had a day or two to digest this move, we should all be able to put this dispute in the past and move on to the fun of following a team whose relevance is now agreed upon by all.

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Old
11-14-2012, 10:26 AM
  #453
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Guarantee that grudges will still be held towards herd outsiders.

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11-14-2012, 10:31 AM
  #454
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Not sure why you continue to say herd.

You must feel sheepish

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11-14-2012, 10:32 AM
  #455
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Originally Posted by ForzaZuffa View Post
so what about a poster like me, who has been around this thread since 08 and goes to dbl digit games per season, do I deserve to be called "BJ bandwagon fan"? Just because I don't post every bloody inning with armchair commentary doesn't mean I deserve to be disrespected by the herd. That goes for other posters who are regulars but not the herd.
I love it. The Herd. I'm going to start to use that.

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Old
11-14-2012, 10:39 AM
  #456
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I love it. The Herd. I'm going to start to use that.
I find it an odd choice of words, when the so-called "herd" held the minority opinion. There were far more posters - and fans - who held the pessimistic view of Rogers and Anthopolous. It would seem to me that *they* would be the herd in this scenario, particularly when it was easy to be pessimistic and follow the crowd in taking ill-informed shots at management (in other words, sheep-like behaviour), but took a little effort and research to understand the objective view.

But enough of this. The important thing is that it's a great day to be a Jays fan, and that since everyone now understands that management actually do know what they're doing, we can *all* be optimistic about an exciting season to come.

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11-14-2012, 10:39 AM
  #457
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Good to see even after this trade my favourite posters are whining about their feelings being hurt. Boohoo. Many other places to read and post.

I personally to not even like this trade but it should have at least made the whiners about Rogers happy. Looks like that did not even last a day.

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Old
11-14-2012, 10:41 AM
  #458
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Lol at posting an opinion and then being required to back it up with reason. What is this, school? M I RITE?

This is the internet. This is the place where those that can't do it an educational setting have the internet.

Why are you hipsters or elitists or whatever you wish to be called, enforcing that crap on the casual fan?

I have an opinion. I don't care if you agree or not; I care to make my opinion known. This is all that matters -- for my thought to be heard (regardless of if it is a thought that is well reasoned out).

---------

Anyway, this is just my take.

I, personally, don't care who posts what or who says what, so long as it is argued for well. I only really care about the argument, which if bad, I will criticize. Tons of people have posted things that I disagree with, such as Lind being a platoon player (I think no Lind is better), but the argument has a lot of valid points, which makes it a good argument and something worth more consideration. It's perhaps even better than my argument for no Lind.

I think the problem arises when posters post something like, "You said he is a good pitcher. His FIP suggests otherwise. Therefore, you were wrong". Well, no... that's not exactly a good rebuttal, either (I think this is the divide between traditionalists and sabremetricans). Perhaps explaining what FIP actually means can suggest if it is a good response or not to the claim. This also then means, some people should actually begin to understand how their argument isn't a good one in light of advanced stats.

This is what separates this forum from others -- well constructed arguments are valued highly over just opinions. This is what makes the discussion here more intellectually stimulating and perhaps what gives rise to this elitist attitude that many people feel.

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11-14-2012, 10:41 AM
  #459
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Originally Posted by Nasty Nazem View Post
TSN and SN comments? You mean the trolling idiots who don't have a clue what they are talking about. No idea how anyone can think they represent the Jays fans.
HAHA you just summed up my post pretty good. Sure there are tons of idiot posters on those comment sections but there are tons of good posters as well you provide comment obviously those sections or for a general response to an article and not a discussion forum like HF but nonetheless doesn't mean they are not any more or less informed than the rest of us.

How do you know what Jays fans are thinking?

Your tight knit little group on HF doesn't represent the mass ideology of what the Jays fan think. Many don't spend hours trolling a website looking to rebut people who do not share the view of your group and tell them they are idiots and their opinion is worthless and here is what you should be thinking about the Jays.

I would say this HF thread probably represents about 1 % of the total fans that follow the Jays. Very small percentage to say the least.

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11-14-2012, 10:44 AM
  #460
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Originally Posted by Ohio Jones View Post
I find it an odd choice of words, when the so-called "herd" held the minority opinion. There were far more posters - and fans - who held the pessimistic view of Rogers and Anthopolous. It would seem to me that *they* would be the herd in this scenario, particularly when it was easy to be pessimistic and follow the crowd in taking ill-informed shots at management (in other words, sheep-like behaviour), but took a little effort and research to understand the objective view.

But enough of this. The important thing is that it's a great day to be a Jays fan, and that since everyone now understands that management actually do know what they're doing, we can *all* be optimistic about an exciting season to come.
Maybe there are specific people that do this but this totally discounts the people that didn't just follow what everyone else was saying and had a different opinion based on facts available to them. This place is like a herd. Disagree with a prevailing opinion and people try to ostracize the dissenter followed by a bunch of people piling on. It's a high school mentality that really irritates me as an adult. People should be able to have a different or unpopular opinion without having to worry about getting swarmed over..

Hey, the swarm is another usage. Then again, it might sound a little cool to people so it would defeat the purpose.

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11-14-2012, 10:45 AM
  #461
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Forget it. Does anybody know exactly what our payroll is going into next year?


Last edited by NeverGoingToWin: 11-14-2012 at 10:50 AM.
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Old
11-14-2012, 10:48 AM
  #462
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Since when it Cecil an "asset". He's been horrendous and it easily replaceable from within. You dump him or release him. He is that bad. And there's still no word from Oliver, who's option was picked up but he hasnt decided on retirement yet. Cecil shouldn't even get a sniff with this team, good riddance.
I never said he's a good asset, but in baseball terms, he's an asset.

He could be a useful 2nd lefty in the pen. I do however want Oliver, I would imagine he's considering staying now hah.

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Old
11-14-2012, 10:50 AM
  #463
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Originally Posted by JaysLeafsTFCfan View Post
Good to see even after this trade my favourite posters are whining about their feelings being hurt. Boohoo. Many other places to read and post
I'm gonna run off thus forum because a useless internet bully says I should? no chance buddy
Quote:
Originally Posted by shakes View Post
Maybe there are specific people that do this but this totally discounts the people that didn't just follow what everyone else was saying and had a different opinion based on facts available to them. This place is like a herd. Disagree with a prevailing opinion and people try to ostracize the dissenter followed by a bunch of people piling on. It's a high school mentality that really irritates me as an adult. People should be able to have a different or unpopular opinion without having to worry about getting swarmed over..

Hey, the swarm is another usage. Then again, it might sound a little cool to people so it would defeat the purpose.
Well said.

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Old
11-14-2012, 10:50 AM
  #464
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Originally Posted by ForzaZuffa View Post
That was aimed at me. How is that suggestion not calling me a bandwagon fan?
Do you understand how a sig/avatar bet works?

I lost an avatar bet on the Hawks/Nucks series a couple years back and sported a spiffy "The Cup is coming home" status with a picture of Luongo until the playoffs ended. That doesn't mean that I'm a Canuck fan...

The entire purpose is to make someone eat the proverbial crow by making them put something embarrassing in there.

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Old
11-14-2012, 10:51 AM
  #465
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To be honest, the average Jays fan is quite a bit less informed than the average poster in this thread, and 100% less informed than the most knowledgable posters in this thread.

For example: My friend goes to around 10 games a year, and watches every single game on TV, and records the games that he misses. However, he has no idea what the hell WAR is, hell, he didn't even know who Josh Johnson was. He watches the games because he simply enjoys it. If anything, the "average" Jays fan is closer to this type of person.

Quite a few posters in here are more of your traditional "hardcore" fans. I am a hardcore Leafs fan but more of a casual Jays fan; however, reading these threads has greatly opened up my mind to the fascinating world of sabremetrics and has also helped me to be more informed about other players in the league.

tl;dr - the average blue Jays fan knows VERY LITTLE compared to many posters in this thread.

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11-14-2012, 10:51 AM
  #466
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The issue was never about who were real fans the issue was that we had a regular group that discussed baseball. People seemed to go out of their way when something bad happend to say "Rogers is cheap". How can you have discussions with people when you have already stated your opinions on the matter? I know it is frustrating to understand but many of us "elitists" don't feel like answering the same criticism 50 times a day. Its not us not respecting you as a fan its simply not respecting the quality of content being spewed out over and over with no base facts.

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Old
11-14-2012, 10:55 AM
  #467
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One big issue to come out of this is Rogers better be willing to spend from here on out because two of the deals are heavily back-loaded and Johnson will require a lot too if he has a good year.

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11-14-2012, 10:56 AM
  #468
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Originally Posted by Ohio Jones View Post
No, you were utterly wrong because you discounted out of hand that the Jays had spent the past three years positioning themselves to make precisely this kind of move. You were routed last week because you made baseless claims founded in emotional pessimism rather than objective evaluation.

The Jays are relevant contenders today precisely because of the work that Anthopolous and Beeston have done over the past three years - work that many posters have been relentless about criticizing, as you did, to the exclusion of any other discussion.

It's not - and has never been - about the "popular" belief. Quite the contrary, as the most popular belief happened to be the ill-founded one you were espousing, which is precisely why those who held a more objective view had gotten seriously tired of poking holes in it. That's why the response you received was as vitriolic as it was. You didn't necessarily earn that response on your own, but you can understand why some posters would have over-reacted to yet another "Johnny-come-lately" parroting the same tired and fallacious arguments to support their pessimistic - and, it has been proven, utterly wrong - opinion as fact.

But that was then, this is now. The debate has been resolved, and after everyone's had a day or two to digest this move, we should all be able to put this dispute in the past and move on to the fun of following a team whose relevance is now agreed upon by all.
Ohio,

The only fact I will dispute is that this is the move AA and Rogers were looking for. No where did anyone see the Marlins fire sale going this deep.

If the deal was Hech and Marisnick, Nicolin, Mathis for Josh Johnson and John Buck most on here would be screaming it too much for a pitcher 1 year removed from FA.

The difference is the Marlins included Reyes and Burhele cause they wanted to shed all payroll. If this was any other franchise in baseball this type of trade would not have happened as ownership would have been chastised in their own market and fans would have revolted with no shows to games.

Hell even the Astro's did not pull a fire sale like this all in one move.

So only under a perfect storm did this happen and not because AA had a stacked farm or willing to spend it was because another franchise basically said screw it to their fanbase.

Anyone on here would have never thought it would have happened and if a poster would have posted that deal it would have been laughed at saying the Marlins would not even do that.

Now I am going to give AA credit for taking advantage of a weaker GM in a bad position predicated by an owner who is just a plain idiot and willing to screw his franchise over in the name of getting more revenue sharing and keeping a payroll under 20 million.

Lets all be honest when thinking of adding both pitchers there was never talk of getting both from the same team and getting 2 all-stars neither was there talk of getting an all-star shortstop.

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Old
11-14-2012, 10:57 AM
  #469
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Originally Posted by Woodman19 View Post
The issue was never about who were real fans the issue was that we had a regular group that discussed baseball. People seemed to go out of their way when something bad happend to say "Rogers is cheap". How can you have discussions with people when you have already stated your opinions on the matter? I know it is frustrating to understand but many of us "elitists" don't feel like answering the same criticism 50 times a day. Its not us not respecting you as a fan its simply not respecting the quality of content being spewed out over and over with no base facts.
Didn't know someone was holding a gun to your head forcing you to read said opinions and react like a child.
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Originally Posted by theaub View Post
Do you understand how a sig/avatar bet works?

I lost an avatar bet on the Hawks/Nucks series a couple years back and sported a spiffy "The Cup is coming home" status with a picture of Luongo until the playoffs ended. That doesn't mean that I'm a Canuck fan...

The entire purpose is to make someone eat the proverbial crow by making them put something embarrassing in there.
Actually, no one made a bet. I just simply stated I would eat crow, no stipulations were outlined

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11-14-2012, 10:57 AM
  #470
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodman19 View Post
The issue was never about who were real fans the issue was that we had a regular group that discussed baseball. People seemed to go out of their way when something bad happend to say "Rogers is cheap". How can you have discussions with people when you have already stated your opinions on the matter? I know it is frustrating to understand but many of us "elitists" don't feel like answering the same criticism 50 times a day. Its not us not respecting you as a fan its simply not respecting the quality of content being spewed out over and over with no base facts.
There was PLENTY of reasons to hold the opinion "Rogers is Cheap" UNTIL approximately 6:15 PM yesterday. I see no reason as to why that attitude was invalid. The Jays had a pretty low payroll and are owned by a mega-corporation with DEEP DEEP pockets. It is highly understandable that people would get pissed off when they see division rivals outspending them and typically making the playoffs, whereas the Jays hadn't been relevant since 1993.

NOW, it is not appropriate to hold the view "Rogers is Cheap". The amount of money they have spent acquiring these players is proof.

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11-14-2012, 10:59 AM
  #471
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When will this site get back to real talk about baseball?

What does the roster look like at the moment?

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11-14-2012, 11:00 AM
  #472
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Originally Posted by Woodman19 View Post
The issue was never about who were real fans the issue was that we had a regular group that discussed baseball. People seemed to go out of their way when something bad happend to say "Rogers is cheap". How can you have discussions with people when you have already stated your opinions on the matter? I know it is frustrating to understand but many of us "elitists" don't feel like answering the same criticism 50 times a day. Its not us not respecting you as a fan its simply not respecting the quality of content being spewed out over and over with no base facts.
Exactly. We very much encourage differing opinions as it makes this place much more enjoyable. I've changed my views on many situations involving the jays because of these discussions. It's the one day drop ins that don't post for discussion of any sort. They come in and randomly blast ownership or AA and refuse to actually have a discussion about it. A team that is rebuilding is tough to watch at times but you could clearly see what was being put together if you cared to look. Even if people couldn't see it they just didn't care to discuss it. Just how we will continue to tread water forever and the team would never really put a winner together. We've been defending the team since AA took over and at least I believe we have every right to put it back into peoples faces. Make them eat the crow they deserve to be fed.

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11-14-2012, 11:00 AM
  #473
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Originally Posted by The Amazing Ralph View Post
There was PLENTY of reasons to hold the opinion "Rogers is Cheap" UNTIL approximately 6:15 PM yesterday. I see no reason as to why that attitude was invalid. The Jays had a pretty low payroll and are owned by a mega-corporation with DEEP DEEP pockets. It is highly understandable that people would get pissed off when they see division rivals outspending them and typically making the playoffs, whereas the Jays hadn't been relevant since 1993.

NOW, it is not appropriate to hold the view "Rogers is Cheap". The amount of money they have spent acquiring these players is proof.
This is completely accurate tbh. There was absolutely no indication that Rogers would spend money until yesterday. As much as the Jays said they would spend money I don't see how anyone can be blamed for taking the "I'll believe it when I see it" approach.

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11-14-2012, 11:01 AM
  #474
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When does training camp start?

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11-14-2012, 11:02 AM
  #475
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Originally Posted by JaysLeafsTFCfan View Post
When will this site get back to real talk about baseball?

What does the roster look like at the moment?
well after my last post I'm done with that discussion. Back to baseball and more speculation. I can't believe AA did all this and we haven't even gotten to the winter meetings yet.

As for what the roster looks like I can sum it up in one word

Amazing.

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