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[MIA / TOR] Big Blockbuster (Reyes, Johnson, Buerhle to TOR)

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Old
11-14-2012, 01:20 AM
  #226
Drop The Mits
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martini View Post
This trade isnt as bad for the Marlins as many think it is.

First off, they get rid of bad contracts. Reyes had a healthy season last year and that isnt the usual status quo. He will help the Jays when he is healthy, and now he doesnt have the burden of living up to that contract now in Toronto and will no doubt be back where he usually is on the DL. Good, not great player whose career year was when he was in a contract year. Better then what the Jays had, but thats not saying much.

Buehrle was the best piece in this deal. An inning eater who has a proven track record for being a winner. A WS champion who should be the guy to mentor the young guys in Toronto. He will give you 200 innings, but he is past his prime. That back loaded contract will be an albatross soon enough.

JJ is one year. I, imo, highly doubt he wants to stay in Toronto after this year. I question his health, but think he should be energized next year pitching for his payday.

The rest was fluff.

And the Marlins fleeced a bevy of the Jays farm system while getting rid of all those huge contracts and dropping their payroll down to 16 mil. Not bad. Loria is a huge piece of trash and doesnt deserve that team, but in reality, its his team to do as he pleases. In a business stand point, its a brilliant move.

How does this help the Jays? Well, theres still the Yankees and Rays in that division. This traded doesnt make them closer to that caliber of team, imo. A huge trade didnt help the Dodgers last year and this one, with even more question marks, doesnt magicly place the Jays into a position of being a contender.

The Jays got bigger names, but the Marlins get piece of mind and can restart the building by taking many pieces from one of the best prospect pools in baseball. The Jays put all of their eggs in one basket and are hoping next year is the year, it seems.

Right now, its a toss up. We shall see what happens in a few months.
So if Mark Buerhle is past his prime at 33 will JJ be past his prime in 4 years? Since a big trade (involving different players, who knew?) didn't help the Dodgers, surely it won't help the Blue Jays. Reyes may be overpaid but he is better than Escobar, good thing theres no such thing as a salary cap, eh? You think JJ won't sign with Toronto next year so.... this trade is a toss up What ridiculous arguments.

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Old
11-14-2012, 01:25 AM
  #227
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Wow can't believe they Jays Pulled this off. So excited!
LOL That was great, thanks for posting it.

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11-14-2012, 02:09 AM
  #228
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Old
11-14-2012, 02:14 AM
  #229
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Originally Posted by Drop The Mits View Post
So if Mark Buerhle is past his prime at 33 will JJ be past his prime in 4 years?
Buehrle is a 13 win pitcher, nothing more, nothing less. His prime ended in 2005 when he was a top of the rotation guy. What he gives the Jays is 200 innings barring injury, so of course, he is the best piece in this trade considering he is consistantly, you know, 200 innings and 13 wins, which is a far cry from his minimum 15 win prime.

JJ, on the other hand, is very injury prone and has one great year under his belt and a bunch of hope that he will one day regain that form of pitcher and even then, its questionable at best. Can he be? Sure, but that remains to be seen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drop The Mits View Post
Since a big trade (involving different players, who knew?) didn't help the Dodgers, surely it won't help the Blue Jays.
It remains be seen what will happen. This trade doesnt magicly transform a perennial bottom feeder like the Jays into a team that can challenge the might of the East. Of course, it makes them better, but there are teams that are much more adapted to winning, such as the Rays and Yankees, who either have deep pockets and/or a great system to keep pumping out championship quality teams to compensate any move a team in their division makes. This trade does indeed make the Jays better, but it will also put the GM's on those teams on notice to use whatever assets they have to build a better team. I will put my money on the Yankees and Rays every day of the week and twice on sunday that they pull some magic out of their hats to do something productive this off season. The Jays are a mediocre team, and have been for a long time. One huge trade doesnt suddenly make them the class of the east is all I am saying.
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Originally Posted by Drop The Mits View Post
Reyes may be overpaid but he is better than Escobar,
That isnt saying much. Escobar is very mediocre.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drop The Mits View Post
good thing theres no such thing as a salary cap, eh?
Tell that to the Yankees and Red Sox, both of whom will spend to their hearts content this off season without restriction while the Jays might have hit their personal cap with one big move filled with question marks while vanishing a bunch of MLB ready talent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drop The Mits View Post
You think JJ won't sign with Toronto next year so.... this trade is a toss up
This trade is a toss up considering JJ has a history of injury, so does Reyes, leaving the only proven commodity in a guy whose arm has 12 years of 200+ innings on it while the Marlins pretty much took whomever they wanted from the Jays farm system and can rebuild their last place team that failed with a bunch of huge contracts suddenly jettisoned, leaving them financially stable to start from scratch while using those riches from the Jays farm system as their corner stone.
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Originally Posted by Drop The Mits View Post
What ridiculous arguments.
If you think so, but the fact remains the Marlins were a last place team with those names on the team and the Jays were a 73 win team last year in a division that had three teams reach 90. The same division that has a team in the Red Sox who have a excellent farm system and limitless funds to spend. The Jays needed to make such a move to keep up with the other teams in that division now that the O's have turned the corner.

Will it work out? Time will tell. In my opinion, I think it was the wrong move giving up all that talent for a bunch of question marks, but thats just me. I firmly believe in getting proven MLB talent at the expense of prospects who may or may not make it, but the talent emassed here is head scratching to say the least.

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11-14-2012, 03:11 AM
  #230
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What I find funny is that Loria traded Hanley Ramirez because he was a headcase. Now he acquires one in Yunel Escobar.

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11-14-2012, 03:20 AM
  #231
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WOAH, WOAH, WOAH!!! Who speculated that?!? You mean the Dodgers could be looking at an outfield of Stanton, Kemp, and Eithier?!? Outfield wet dream....

Go Dodgers!!!
No one "official", basically fans here because he talks constantly about how he grew up a big Dodger fan & how much he loves the area.

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11-14-2012, 04:37 AM
  #232
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11-14-2012, 04:47 AM
  #233
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Goat View Post
WOAH, WOAH, WOAH!!! Who speculated that?!? You mean the Dodgers could be looking at an outfield of Stanton, Kemp, and Eithier?!? Outfield wet dream....

Go Dodgers!!!
crawford, kemp, ethier all signed through 2018. puig through 2017 plus the new japanese import they spent 30 million to negotiate with.

that's like 300 million on outfielders through 2018.

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Old
11-14-2012, 07:05 AM
  #234
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Of course not, however if it was the Yankees it would have been a gem....
I've never hesitated to criticize the Yankees when I don't think they're doing the right thing (it's a natural instinct when you also root for the Jets and Islanders.) In any case, as I said, I would've pulled the trigger on this deal with no hesitation if I were Toronto. So there's no need for that whiny attitude.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gobias Industries
What does overrated mean? He's not a superstar? He's better than Yunel Escobar, and does he shore up the lead-off position, of which the Jays seemingly never have.
Overrated means that Reyes is considered to be a superstar, when in reality his numbers have never backed that up. We're talking about a guy who has hit over .300 just twice in his 10 year career, who still makes mental errors that you'd expect from a rookie, who doesn't play good defense, and who's played 150 or more games in just half of his seasons.

To be fair to Reyes, when he's hot he's an absolutely electric player, and he's definitely an upgrade over Escobar. But he's not the franchise guy that the Mets and Marlins hoped he would be -- which is fine if you're willing to pay $96 million to a secondary piece. Let's see how Toronto manages their payroll over the next 2 seasons before rushing to judgement.

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11-14-2012, 07:13 AM
  #235
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Originally Posted by Oilbleeder View Post
Mark Buehrle's turf stats aren't that bad are they?

238 IP 274 H 116 ER 56 BB 149 K

I believe his K and BB ratio's work out to around his career averages. I believe he gives up slightly more hits. I don't see how one can say his stats on turf aren't good. They are similar to his career norms.
Without getting into the deep weeds, here's a look at the basics for Buehrle on turf.

ERA Grass 3.77
Turf 4.37

Whip Grass 1.26
Turf 1.38

BAA Grass .270
Turf .289

The BAA difference is fairly substantial, which is logical considering he's a contact pitcher.

I'm also surprised how little respect Baltimore gets on this board.
I don't think there's any question they'll compete again.

Toronto probably improved temporarily, but this is the AL East.

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11-14-2012, 07:23 AM
  #236
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Originally Posted by Valrico Gold View Post
Without getting into the deep weeds, here's a look at the basics for Buehrle on turf.

ERA Grass 3.77
Turf 4.37

Whip Grass 1.26
Turf 1.38

BAA Grass .270
Turf .289

The BAA difference is fairly substantial, which is logical considering he's a contact pitcher.

I'm also surprised how little respect Baltimore gets on this board.
I don't think there's any question they'll compete again.

Toronto probably improved temporarily, but this is the AL East.
As it stands now, I think that the Rays and Yankees are roughly even at the top, while the O's and Jays are roughly even about 4 games behind them. The Sox need to find some pitching before they can be considered contenders again.

Obviously this is all subject to change based on the rest of the offseason.

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11-14-2012, 07:33 AM
  #237
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martini View Post
Buehrle is a 13 win pitcher, nothing more, nothing less. His prime ended in 2005 when he was a top of the rotation guy. What he gives the Jays is 200 innings barring injury, so of course, he is the best piece in this trade considering he is consistantly, you know, 200 innings and 13 wins, which is a far cry from his minimum 15 win prime.

JJ, on the other hand, is very injury prone and has one great year under his belt and a bunch of hope that he will one day regain that form of pitcher and even then, its questionable at best. Can he be? Sure, but that remains to be seen.


It remains be seen what will happen. This trade doesnt magicly transform a perennial bottom feeder like the Jays into a team that can challenge the might of the East. Of course, it makes them better, but there are teams that are much more adapted to winning, such as the Rays and Yankees, who either have deep pockets and/or a great system to keep pumping out championship quality teams to compensate any move a team in their division makes. This trade does indeed make the Jays better, but it will also put the GM's on those teams on notice to use whatever assets they have to build a better team. I will put my money on the Yankees and Rays every day of the week and twice on sunday that they pull some magic out of their hats to do something productive this off season. The Jays are a mediocre team, and have been for a long time. One huge trade doesnt suddenly make them the class of the east is all I am saying.

That isnt saying much. Escobar is very mediocre.

Tell that to the Yankees and Red Sox, both of whom will spend to their hearts content this off season without restriction while the Jays might have hit their personal cap with one big move filled with question marks while vanishing a bunch of MLB ready talent.

This trade is a toss up considering JJ has a history of injury, so does Reyes, leaving the only proven commodity in a guy whose arm has 12 years of 200+ innings on it while the Marlins pretty much took whomever they wanted from the Jays farm system and can rebuild their last place team that failed with a bunch of huge contracts suddenly jettisoned, leaving them financially stable to start from scratch while using those riches from the Jays farm system as their corner stone.
If you think so, but the fact remains the Marlins were a last place team with those names on the team and the Jays were a 73 win team last year in a division that had three teams reach 90. The same division that has a team in the Red Sox who have a excellent farm system and limitless funds to spend. The Jays needed to make such a move to keep up with the other teams in that division now that the O's have turned the corner.

Will it work out? Time will tell. In my opinion, I think it was the wrong move giving up all that talent for a bunch of question marks, but thats just me. I firmly believe in getting proven MLB talent at the expense of prospects who may or may not make it, but the talent emassed here is head scratching to say the least.
Post is full of fail. You're bias is showing.

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Old
11-14-2012, 08:16 AM
  #238
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Jays fans should be happy, but that Reyes contract will be an albatross in 2-3 years.

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11-14-2012, 08:24 AM
  #239
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Rogers has so much damn money, if they are willing to spend then why should the fans care?

Worst case AA dumps Reyes Wells style

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11-14-2012, 08:47 AM
  #240
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Reyes will be unmoveable as he ages because his main asset, his legs, will break down.

I am still astonished he got the contract he did. One of the most overrated players in the league.

This coming from a Mets fan who didn't want him back from a fianicial standpoint only. His best year came in his contract season, and has never approached anything close to that in his entire career.

He became my most hated player in baseball when he pulled himself from his last game as a Met, at home, to selfishly win a batting title.

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11-14-2012, 09:06 AM
  #241
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KH1 View Post
I've never hesitated to criticize the Yankees when I don't think they're doing the right thing (it's a natural instinct when you also root for the Jets and Islanders.) In any case, as I said, I would've pulled the trigger on this deal with no hesitation if I were Toronto. So there's no need for that whiny attitude.



Overrated means that Reyes is considered to be a superstar, when in reality his numbers have never backed that up. We're talking about a guy who has hit over .300 just twice in his 10 year career, who still makes mental errors that you'd expect from a rookie, who doesn't play good defense, and who's played 150 or more games in just half of his seasons.

To be fair to Reyes, when he's hot he's an absolutely electric player, and he's definitely an upgrade over Escobar. But he's not the franchise guy that the Mets and Marlins hoped he would be -- which is fine if you're willing to pay $96 million to a secondary piece. Let's see how Toronto manages their payroll over the next 2 seasons before rushing to judgement.
They don't need to manage their payroll, they have an owner that makes almost two billion dollars every year.

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11-14-2012, 09:15 AM
  #242
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Originally Posted by Martini View Post
Will it work out? Time will tell. In my opinion, I think it was the wrong move giving up all that talent for a bunch of question marks, but thats just me. I firmly believe in getting proven MLB talent at the expense of prospects who may or may not make it, but the talent emassed here is head scratching to say the least.
I'm sorry... the bunch of question marks are the players who've played in the MLB for a few years, not the ones who have yet to make the MLB, or have less than a season on their belt? I guess I am on HF. Prospects >>>>>>> proven talent. Even when some of the prospects do not even have the cieling of the players they were traded for. This must be a joke

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11-14-2012, 09:35 AM
  #243
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Originally Posted by Drop The Mits View Post
I'm sorry... the bunch of question marks are the players who've played in the MLB for a few years, not the ones who have yet to make the MLB, or have less than a season on their belt? I guess I am on HF. Prospects >>>>>>> proven talent. Even when some of the prospects do not even have the cieling of the players they were traded for. This must be a joke
He does have a point. Two of the three (main) pieces we are getting back (Johnson and Reyes) carry with them some injury concern. Johnson is only on a one year deal and Buehrle and Reyes are going to be making more and more each year.

We did give up some good young talent in the deal as well.

Still, I'm definitely glad the Jays made the move. Going on 20 years without post season ball, I'm glad AA used the deep farm to give us a chance in the immediate future. Especially when you consider Joey Bats isn't getting any younger. This is the kind of trade Toronto fans needed, and by golly I sure hope it works out.

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11-14-2012, 09:40 AM
  #244
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Am I the only guy who likes players in contract years?

I mean if Johnson ends up deserving twenty mil, I'll have enjoyed his year quite a bit; and given how much I pay Rogers every month I do not care about money.

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11-14-2012, 09:41 AM
  #245
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I love the fact that the Mets are paying Jason Bay more money to not play for them than the Marlins are paying their entire team.

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11-14-2012, 10:45 AM
  #246
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If we're going to bring up all the negatives about the Marlins players, then its only fair to do the same about the guys the Jays are moving

Escobar - known headcase who's worn out his welcome with both franchises he's played for
Hechavarria - amazing defender but hasn't shown anything close to a plus hit tool; could just be a slightly better hitting Jose Iglesias
Alvarez - can't strike anyone out, will need to develop an out pitch to succeed
Mathis - backup catcher
Nicolino/Marisnick/DeScalfini - all of them are good prospects, but none of them will be hitting a ML roster before 2015 and who knows what can happen by then

The biggest joke of that guy's posts is he's implying that the Marlins gutted the Jays farm systems or something when by absolutely everyone's rankings Florida didn't get the Jays best two prospects (D'Arnaud and Sanchez), and per the Fangraphs rankings that came out last week got #5, #6 and #10.

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11-14-2012, 10:54 AM
  #247
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robert terwilliger View Post
crawford, kemp, ethier all signed through 2018. puig through 2017 plus the new japanese import they spent 30 million to negotiate with.

that's like 300 million on outfielders through 2018.
He's actually Korean

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11-14-2012, 10:58 AM
  #248
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They don't need to manage their payroll, they have an owner that makes almost two billion dollars every year.
Just because Rogers is loaded doesn't mean any of that money will be reinvested into the team -- after all, they haven't in the past.

To use an example from another franchise, David Glass is richer than God but he doesn't put any of that cash into building a winner.

All I'm saying is, if the Blue Jays plan to use Jose Reyes as a centerpiece they're not gonna be happy with the results.

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11-14-2012, 11:03 AM
  #249
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Will it work out? Time will tell. In my opinion, I think it was the wrong move giving up all that talent for a bunch of question marks, but thats just me. I firmly believe in getting proven MLB talent at the expense of prospects who may or may not make it, but the talent emassed here is head scratching to say the least.
Jays haven't even given up their top prospects and you think this is a head scratching move.

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11-14-2012, 11:28 AM
  #250
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It remains be seen what will happen. This trade doesnt magicly transform a perennial bottom feeder like the Jays into a team that can challenge the might of the East. Of course, it makes them better, but there are teams that are much more adapted to winning, such as the Rays and Yankees, who either have deep pockets and/or a great system to keep pumping out championship quality teams to compensate any move a team in their division makes. This trade does indeed make the Jays better, but it will also put the GM's on those teams on notice to use whatever assets they have to build a better team. I will put my money on the Yankees and Rays every day of the week and twice on sunday that they pull some magic out of their hats to do something productive this off season. The Jays are a mediocre team, and have been for a long time. One huge trade doesnt suddenly make them the class of the east is all I am saying.
Personally I don't think the Rays are going to be hard to compete with. Yes they might have a great system and have recent history of going to the World Series in 2008 and making the Playoffs in 2010 and 2011. However one thing that they never do is spend the money to re-sign their star players. So if they keep letting them leave via free agency there is only so many times when their system of young players can help them win. For a number of years the Blue Jays have brought up a lot of their minor league players with a few free agent signings and it didn't work, so now they needed to try something new.

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