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Off-season Madness the 3rd: Jeffrey Loria taketh and Jeffrey Loria giveth away

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Old
11-14-2012, 11:03 AM
  #476
NeverGoingToWin
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Is Santos supposed to be fully healthy by the beginning of the season?

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11-14-2012, 11:04 AM
  #477
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What a great business decision by Rogers. In the early 90's there wasn't a kid in Canada who didn't know who Joe Carter was. Now, I would highly suspect a good portion of kids couldn't even name a Blue Jay.

I'm sure from an investment standpoint someone has done a cost-benefit analysis. I would guess that the benefit far outweighs the large cost. If you can get a generation of kids excited about the Blue Jays again. That will recoup the money easily within 10 years.

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11-14-2012, 11:05 AM
  #478
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Originally Posted by ryno23 View Post
Ohio,

The only fact I will dispute is that this is the move AA and Rogers were looking for. No where did anyone see the Marlins fire sale going this deep.

If the deal was Hech and Marisnick, Nicolin, Mathis for Josh Johnson and John Buck most on here would be screaming it too much for a pitcher 1 year removed from FA.

The difference is the Marlins included Reyes and Burhele cause they wanted to shed all payroll. If this was any other franchise in baseball this type of trade would not have happened as ownership would have been chastised in their own market and fans would have revolted with no shows to games.

Hell even the Astro's did not pull a fire sale like this all in one move.

So only under a perfect storm did this happen and not because AA had a stacked farm or willing to spend it was because another franchise basically said screw it to their fanbase.

Anyone on here would have never thought it would have happened and if a poster would have posted that deal it would have been laughed at saying the Marlins would not even do that.

Now I am going to give AA credit for taking advantage of a weaker GM in a bad position predicated by an owner who is just a plain idiot and willing to screw his franchise over in the name of getting more revenue sharing and keeping a payroll under 20 million.

Lets all be honest when thinking of adding both pitchers there was never talk of getting both from the same team and getting 2 all-stars neither was there talk of getting an all-star shortstop.
Not sure if I'm understanding your post right, but here's what I make of it:

Discount everything AA did in order to get this trade done, because he basically hit the jackpot and the only way this got done is because Loria lost his mind.

Don't pay any attention to the man behind the mirror, aka the other 29 GM's who would have also loved to be a part of this Marlins firesale but clearly none of them made offers, because as mentioned earlier, AA was the only one with the correct lottery numbers.

If AA had acquired an All-star shortstop, a front of the rotation ace and horse innings eating veteran in separate deals would you have given him more credit?

Thats like saying you don't respect a guy because he made 100 millions dollars in one large business, but respect a different guy because he turned the same profit in 3 smaller businesses.

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11-14-2012, 11:05 AM
  #479
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Originally Posted by The Amazing Ralph View Post
There was PLENTY of reasons to hold the opinion "Rogers is Cheap" UNTIL approximately 6:15 PM yesterday. I see no reason as to why that attitude was invalid. The Jays had a pretty low payroll and are owned by a mega-corporation with DEEP DEEP pockets. It is highly understandable that people would get pissed off when they see division rivals outspending them and typically making the playoffs, whereas the Jays hadn't been relevant since 1993.

NOW, it is not appropriate to hold the view "Rogers is Cheap". The amount of money they have spent acquiring these players is proof.
The attitude was invalid because the argument structure was that because it had happened in the past, it would happen in future and potential future additions were negated prior to happening for this reason. Keep in mind that payroll has risen several times in the past with each result being poor attendance. Anthopoulos has built himself a team and can add where he sees fit (instead of throwing money at the players that happen to be available).

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11-14-2012, 11:05 AM
  #480
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dredeye View Post
well after my last post I'm done with that discussion. Back to baseball and more speculation. I can't believe AA did all this and we haven't even gotten to the winter meetings yet.

As for what the roster looks like I can sum it up in one word

Amazing.
It looks good on paper.

Just getting everyone back from injury will be a huge boost.

Romero needs to get back to his old self; if he pitches like last year, he shouldn't even be on the team.

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11-14-2012, 11:05 AM
  #481
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Originally Posted by JaysLeafsTFCfan View Post
One big issue to come out of this is Rogers better be willing to spend from here on out because two of the deals are heavily back-loaded and Johnson will require a lot too if he has a good year.
Santos also has a pretty high rising contract as the years go on. It appears to me that Rogers was willing to put the 45 million they'll get from the new tv deal straight back into the team. They don't get all of it until next year but the back loaded deals will be covered by that revenue. The rest can be driven by more fans supporting a winning team.

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Old
11-14-2012, 11:06 AM
  #482
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ryno23 View Post
Ohio,

The only fact I will dispute is that this is the move AA and Rogers were looking for. No where did anyone see the Marlins fire sale going this deep.

If the deal was Hech and Marisnick, Nicolin, Mathis for Josh Johnson and John Buck most on here would be screaming it too much for a pitcher 1 year removed from FA.

The difference is the Marlins included Reyes and Burhele cause they wanted to shed all payroll. If this was any other franchise in baseball this type of trade would not have happened as ownership would have been chastised in their own market and fans would have revolted with no shows to games.

Hell even the Astro's did not pull a fire sale like this all in one move.

So only under a perfect storm did this happen and not because AA had a stacked farm or willing to spend it was because another franchise basically said screw it to their fanbase.

Anyone on here would have never thought it would have happened and if a poster would have posted that deal it would have been laughed at saying the Marlins would not even do that.

Now I am going to give AA credit for taking advantage of a weaker GM in a bad position predicated by an owner who is just a plain idiot and willing to screw his franchise over in the name of getting more revenue sharing and keeping a payroll under 20 million.

Lets all be honest when thinking of adding both pitchers there was never talk of getting both from the same team and getting 2 all-stars neither was there talk of getting an all-star shortstop.
But if the Red Sox made the move, you'd be all over them yelling and screaming Rogers is cheap and how Anthopolous doesn't do his due dilligence in getting market information from the rest of the league.

Please stop posting. You must be a miserable person to be around.

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11-14-2012, 11:07 AM
  #483
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Quote:
Originally Posted by topched View Post
Not sure if I'm understanding your post right, but here's what I make of it:

Discount everything AA did in order to get this trade done, because he basically hit the jackpot and the only way this got done is because Loria lost his mind.

Don't pay any attention to the man behind the mirror, aka the other 29 GM's who would have also loved to be a part of this Marlins firesale but clearly none of them made offers, because as mentioned earlier, AA was the only one with the correct lottery numbers.

If AA had acquired an All-star shortstop, a front of the rotation ace and horse innings eating veteran in separate deals would you have given him more credit?

Thats like saying you don't respect a guy because he made 100 millions dollars in one large business, but respect a different guy because he turned the same profit in 3 smaller businesses.

Cafardo has mentioned that Boston tried to put an offer in, but Toronto blew them out of the water. What people miss is that while we won't lose any sleep about the guys we lost, any other team would have (because Anthopoulos built the best farm before pulling the trigger).

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Old
11-14-2012, 11:08 AM
  #484
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Originally Posted by JaysLeafsTFCfan View Post
Is Santos supposed to be fully healthy by the beginning of the season?
I believe he's suppose to be ready for spring training but I'm not 100%.

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11-14-2012, 11:08 AM
  #485
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Amazing Ralph View Post
It looks good on paper.

Just getting everyone back from injury will be a huge boost.

Romero needs to get back to his old self; if he pitches like last year, he shouldn't even be on the team.
If Romero pitches like last year, we are in trouble because Happ is a similar pitcher (with more K ability). A new pitching coach and this coach be the best pitching staff in baseball.

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11-14-2012, 11:09 AM
  #486
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bjindaho View Post
The attitude was invalid because the argument structure was that because it had happened in the past, it would happen in future and potential future additions were negated prior to happening for this reason. Keep in mind that payroll has risen several times in the past with each result being poor attendance. Anthopoulos has built himself a team and can add where he sees fit (instead of throwing money at the players that happen to be available).
Wrong, the attitude was "because it had happened in the past it was unlikely to happen in the future"

Big, big difference.

The pessimists basically followed trends, and predicted based on that. The optimists conversely, took AA and Rogers for their word when they said they'd eventually spend. The pessimists did not fully believe these statements, and IMO, that is 100% understandable. From Riccard's "five year plan" to seeing a team that Beeston said would likely make the playoffs a couple times in the next 5 years go 73-89 and have a BUNCH of questions marks, posters had every right to sport an attitude of pessimism, because they had heard empty words before. I fail to see how that attitude was wrong in the slightest.

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11-14-2012, 11:10 AM
  #487
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Originally Posted by Woodman19 View Post
The issue was never about who were real fans the issue was that we had a regular group that discussed baseball. People seemed to go out of their way when something bad happend to say "Rogers is cheap". How can you have discussions with people when you have already stated your opinions on the matter? I know it is frustrating to understand but many of us "elitists" don't feel like answering the same criticism 50 times a day. Its not us not respecting you as a fan its simply not respecting the quality of content being spewed out over and over with no base facts.
There was facts on Rogers being cheap and it reflected their record for the last number of years. This year they hyped the team as a team that could compete and when injuries happened there was no going out and spending to fix holes when they had a shot at making the WC. They now understand that they need to spend to compete in the AL when all other teams are arming up the past few years.

Just because you don't feel Rogers was cheap doesn't mean they aren't it that is just your opinion and as your opinion its valid just as much as a person who says they are cheap.

This deal validates both sides of the argument. I truly believe the light went on for Rogers and they realize they needed to spend to compete. They found this out watching high payroll teams make the playoffs year after year.

I don't think they reacted to the fan base or media asking for higher payroll but you can't be oblivious the media coverage in Toronto town and not hear things and that makes you re-evaluate the stance on payroll.

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Old
11-14-2012, 11:10 AM
  #488
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bjindaho View Post
If Romero pitches like last year, we are in trouble because Happ is a similar pitcher (with more K ability). A new pitching coach and this coach be the best pitching staff in baseball.
Why stop there, let's get a new batting coach too...did the Red Sox take murphy??

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11-14-2012, 11:11 AM
  #489
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excuse in the past for not spending big was always "only if we're one or two players away"

now we are

AA could get those few needs now
or......

they could play kids or avg players (ie happ as 5th starter - see how lawrie lind rasmus progress etc) to fill holes 1st half the season
then get a few hired guns with expiring contracts at the trade deadline
like the yankees often do...


Last edited by p.l.f.: 11-14-2012 at 11:19 AM.
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11-14-2012, 11:12 AM
  #490
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Man in White View Post
But if the Red Sox made the move, you'd be all over them yelling and screaming Rogers is cheap and how Anthopolous doesn't do his due dilligence in getting market information from the rest of the league.

Please stop posting. You must be a miserable person to be around.
There is an ignore feature, I've used it several times; considering you haven't used it, your post telling him to "stop posting", is basically the equivalent of spam.

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11-14-2012, 11:13 AM
  #491
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This new ryno scares me...I think I want you to go back to being a part of the "Rogers sucks" herd (see what I did there Zuffa? lol) so things can feel normal again

Also, I don't really want to continue this whole elitists vs. non-AA backers from before, so I'll just say that nobody is trying to make you feel crappy (okay, maybe Quimby is, but nobody else from "our side" is backing that up), and our only point of contention with the opposing view was never that you had one, it was that we were continually called sheep and ostracized for believing AA had the ability to make this kind of move after he basically laid out his modus operandi for us and said this is how it would play out, one way or another. If the elitist group jumped on your opinion, it was more as a defensive reflex and utter annoyance of being told so steadfastly we were wrong with no chance of reasonable, intelligent discussion on the matter from most people spewing that talk.

Also, to the people saying we need to go out and get a LF, 2B and DH...we really don't. A DH would be nice, but we can live with Lind (and might have to with $7M still owed to him), especially if the new manager brings in Mottola or another hitting coach with similar views, rather than the pull happy Murphy approach. Get Lind back to the approach he had in 2009, and maybe he can get his OBP a bit higher and become a solid player. And LF/2B aren't holes on this team, right now they're at least average producers for those positions in the league. With a new approach to hitting (one here hopefully each player gets one tailored to his style), I think this line-up is more than competent:

SS Reyes
CF Rasmus
3B Bautista
1B Encarnacion (or DH)
DH Lind (or 1B)
3B Lawrie
C Buck/TDA
2B Izturis
LF Bonifacio

Balances hitting, speed and power throughout the line-up, gives Rasmus another shot at producing from where he had his best production in the majors, in front of Bautista, gives us almost 2 more lead-off options at the bottom of the line-up...not sure what's not to like (besides the uncertainty of Lind)

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11-14-2012, 11:16 AM
  #492
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I don't follow baseball at all.
Every year I hear "this year the blue jays are supposed to be really good", but hearing about this trade has me a bit excited.

Can anyone compare the players going out and coming in to hockey players, just so I understand the value a bit better?

Edit: looks like this has been done already
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1283067

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11-14-2012, 11:17 AM
  #493
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Amazing Ralph View Post
There is an ignore feature, I've used it several times; considering you haven't used it, your post telling him to "stop posting", is basically the equivalent of spam.
Doesn't work if people quote his stupid posts.

What are you, his girlfriend?

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11-14-2012, 11:19 AM
  #494
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Originally Posted by The Man in White View Post
Doesn't work if people quote his stupid posts.

What are you, his girlfriend?
I'm quoting this to be ironic

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11-14-2012, 11:20 AM
  #495
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Originally Posted by The Man in White View Post
Doesn't work if people quote his stupid posts.

What are you, his girlfriend?
So you unignored him in order to quote his post and tell him to stop posting?



What a hero.

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11-14-2012, 11:20 AM
  #496
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Tbh, both teams win in this deal, for reasons mainly relative to differing off-field reasons. Jays win optically with fans clamoring for immediacy, Marlins dump a TON of cash and grab some solid youth

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11-14-2012, 11:20 AM
  #497
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woll Smoth View Post
I don't follow baseball at all.
Every year I hear "this year the blue jays are supposed to be really good", but hearing about this trade has me a bit excited.

Can anyone compare the players going out and coming in to hockey players, just so I understand the value a bit better?
I'm just going to say that this has been beaten to death now haha. Like probably 5 people have asked this same thing.

Think of us (leafs) acquiring that #1C, starting goaltender, top 6 winger, and top 9 speedster, for prospects, a streaky top 6 forward and 4th line grinder.

edit: nvm, you found another, more specific example.

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11-14-2012, 11:21 AM
  #498
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woll Smoth View Post
I don't follow baseball at all.
Every year I hear "this year the blue jays are supposed to be really good", but hearing about this trade has me a bit excited.

Can anyone compare the players going out and coming in to hockey players, just so I understand the value a bit better?

Edit: looks like this has been done already
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1283067
Just think of it as we traded for two players who in their typical years SHOULD be all-stars, and an aging savvy veteran who has been an all-star in the past and gives you a very consistent effort, as well as a dependable 3rd liner.

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11-14-2012, 11:22 AM
  #499
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Speaking of ignore lists, I wonder what FreeBird has to say about this trade

At least I'm happy the Rogers is cheap stuff can finally be dispelled. They finally proved me wrong.

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11-14-2012, 11:23 AM
  #500
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ForzaZuffa View Post
Tbh, both teams win in this deal, for reasons mainly relative to differing off-field reasons. Jays win optically with fans clamoring for immediacy, Marlins dump a TON of cash and grab some solid youth
They ostracized a ton of fans...I read their thread on their main fan forum, and it was pretty sad.

I can't imagine being taken for a ride like that.

Imagine the Jays get taxpayer dollars to build a new stadium and then once its built immediately strip the team of basically ALL its talent...I'd be pissed off.

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