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OT An [MLB] owner's word - The cautionary tale of Jeff Loria

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Old
11-14-2012, 10:38 AM
  #26
Gberg
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I absolutely hate it when owners try to get taxpayer funding for their stadium, and if they don't, they'll threaten to move (Edmonton/Katz). It's just not right.

And.... Go Blue Jays!!!

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11-14-2012, 10:39 AM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
The CBA the MLB owners agreed to? Including Bob Nutting. If it was that bad why are they making money? Everyone is. Why can't you admit the NHL is run buy monkeys already? Keep carping about baseball though. On and revenue sharing would not be an issue if the small markets wern't demanding it. The struggle NYR, TOR and players union is simply due to franchises like Pittsburgh used to be, always on the dole from someone whether it be the shiny taxpayer paid arena you got, or $$$ from Toronto.
But the quality of the league has suffered. Teams don't have to spend any fixed sum on salary, just enough to field a 25 man roster that's paid league minimum.

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11-14-2012, 11:06 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by bluesfan94 View Post
But the quality of the league has suffered. Teams don't have to spend any fixed sum on salary, just enough to field a 25 man roster that's paid league minimum.
But it makes all 30 owners money!

That is the one and only thing objective of these organizations to provide for its 30 shareholders! All 30 owners in MLB make money. Not every 1 of the 30 NHL owners makes money. Why is this so hard to udnerstand?

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11-14-2012, 11:09 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by cutchemist42 View Post
But it makes all 30 owners money!

That is the one and only thing objective of these organizations to provide for its 30 shareholders! All 30 owners in MLB make money. Not every 1 of the 30 NHL owners makes money. Why is this so hard to udnerstand?
So you're faulting the league for caring about not creating dead fish teams (no pun intended)?

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11-14-2012, 11:13 AM
  #30
Melrose Munch
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Originally Posted by bluesfan94 View Post
So you're faulting the league for caring about not creating dead fish teams (no pun intended)?
Yes.

That's not an objective. Bettman is supposed to make the owners rich. He does that right. He should stick to that.

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11-14-2012, 11:21 AM
  #31
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Yes.

That's not an objective. Bettman is supposed to make the owners rich. He does that right. He should stick to that.
Actually, his goal is to represent the interests of the owners. If the owners want a league where everyone has to actually financially be competitive, then that's what he represents, especially if they think it will help the overall health of the league

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11-14-2012, 11:24 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by bluesfan94 View Post
So you're faulting the league for caring about not creating dead fish teams (no pun intended)?
If a dead-fish team makes a profit, and that 1 shareholder is happy enough while the other 29 shareholders are happy too, then yes.

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Old
11-14-2012, 11:25 AM
  #33
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The trade is not a done deal yet. It can all blow up.

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Old
11-14-2012, 12:10 PM
  #34
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http://deadspin.com/5960332/the-miam...rious-disgrace

Here is what has happened in the last year of the Miami Marlins, formerly d/b/a Florida Marlins: They swindled the citizens of Miami for a new stadium and drew the SEC's notice. They filched Jose Reyes from a franchise that has actual fans but no money and a municipal government that refuses to be robbed blind. They threw money at Heath Bell, Mark Buehrle, and Albert Pujols, and two of the three took it. They got fish installed behind home plate. Their president called Miamians stupid. They installed a wack-ass home run sculpture. Their snobbish owner blabbed about Joan Miro. Their owner then trotted out a shaking Muhammad Ali to shield him from boos on opening night. Their owner then baked himself a ****ing cake with jewels on it. Ozzie Guillen, whom they honest-to-god hired to manage their baseball team, said some crazy **** about Fidel Castro, which he does, from time to time. The Marlins then suspended him to placate area Cubans. The mollified Cubans still had no interest in going to see the Marlins, because they are the ****ing Marlins. The team stank out of the gate, especially Heath Bell. They complained about not having any All-Stars. Showtime canceled its series about them because they sucked so much. John Buck flipped you off. Heath Bell and Ozzie Guillen got in a pissing match. No one came to the games. The extant fans were hilariously pissed off. The team ate $8 million to dump Heath Bell. They ate less to dump Ozzie Guillen. They replaced Ozzie with a guy who spends his leisure time naked. Then they traded Reyes, Josh Johnson, Emilio Bonifacio, Buck, and Buehrle to the Blue Jays. Giancarlo Stanton, their only remaining player of note, a young dynamo who deserves far better, says he's pissed off. He should be. **** the Marlins


I LOVE DEADSPIN.

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Old
11-14-2012, 12:39 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesfan94 View Post
Actually, his goal is to represent the interests of the owners. If the owners want a league where everyone has to actually financially be competitive, then that's what he represents, especially if they think it will help the overall health of the league
And they have never ever said this. They want revenue sharing to pocket more money. the cap is about saving money. Thats it. Thats all.

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Old
11-14-2012, 12:54 PM
  #36
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Knew building a new stadium wasn't going to do them any good in the long-run, and think that the same's true for any proposed new stadium for the Rays in the Tampa Bay area, but this is pretty much the final nail in the coffin for Marlins fans, how few there may be. Loria obviously did all of this to cut salary in spite of having made promises to the public to try to compete in exchange for his new ballpark and competing is the very last thing on his mind. For the life of me, I don't see why anyone would stick with this team as a fan now.

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Old
11-14-2012, 12:57 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sina220 View Post
Ha, we've been dealing with this for 20 years in Pittsburgh with the pirates.

Pirates, marlins, Astros, padres, royals, rays, etc. All great examples of how a league propped up on revenue sharing kills its integrity, parity, and competitive spirit. Revenue sharing essentially removes the incentive to try or work hard for many owners. Just like welfare does to people. There's no incentive to try harder, compete, or spend more to make more, if youre guaranteed a profit before the year even starts.
And i would argue its a function of there being no hard cap.
The markets listed can not sustain high payrolls yr over yr with the knowledge they will and can always be outbid for talent but the top teams where the soft cap does not matter to them.

I think it's a no brainer that if you throw a cap on that league, those teams listed would be rotating regularly into the postseason as the salary/talent starts to spread across the league...

All revenue sharing does is enable those teams to exist in order to bring in the national tv contracts they need.


So i don't think Revenue Sharing is the evil in baseball... its the lack of a cap...

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11-14-2012, 01:01 PM
  #38
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Another success story of Don Fehr's time running the MLBPA.

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Old
11-14-2012, 01:17 PM
  #39
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Jeff Passan rips Selig, the MLB, and Loria a new one.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/marlins...ves-blame.html

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Old
11-14-2012, 03:14 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by sina220 View Post
Ha, we've been dealing with this for 20 years in Pittsburgh with the pirates.

Pirates, marlins, Astros, padres, royals, rays, etc. All great examples of how a league propped up on revenue sharing kills its integrity, parity, and competitive spirit. Revenue sharing essentially removes the incentive to try or work hard for many owners. Just like welfare does to people. There's no incentive to try harder, compete, or spend more to make more, if youre guaranteed a profit before the year even starts.
How does this have anything to do with revenue sharing? For starters, revenue sharing has to be spent on payroll or player development (I.E., your scouts, scouting operations budget + Player Payroll has to be above your RS cheque).

The entire thesis of your argument breaks down to the chicken/egg argument: Are you poor because you suck at running a team, or do you suck at running a team because you are poor?

With revenue sharing, teams like Baltimore, Oakland, Cincinnati, Tampa Bay and Minnesota -- all of whom HAD bargain-basement payrolls - were able to put money into scouting and signing draft picks and make the playoffs recently.

KC and Pittsburgh simply didn't do a good job in scouting, signing draft picks and developing enough talent. Pittsburgh's got some talent now. KC's getting better with a new GM. Their window is smaller (like the teams above).

The Astros -- a big market team -- had an expensive payroll, lots of playoff berths and are rebuilding. Just like plenty of teams have done. Their horribleness now is the byproduct of getting old and rebuilding, and doing it with a GM who tried to take shortcuts and never toredown completely to rebuild from scratch. So then they had to tear down again, with less talent then before to replenish their system with. They are by no means a poor franchise.

Cleveland, Toronto, Baltimore San Diego and Oakland had big payrolls and success in the 90s. Then they tore down.
Detroit swung between small payroll and sucking (almost set the MLB loss record) to spending and winning.

About 25 of 30 teams making the World Series in the past 20 years, and about 25 of 30 teams have also been top 10 in payroll in that span.

Quote:
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The Rays? I don't know how long they were bad for but I wouldn't say they're bad now. I'd say that whatever pains Rays fans have gone through have been quelled by management embracing the opportunity to draft wisely in order to get big talent at a great value.
And they've been good the last 4-5 years without spending a lot.

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I disagree with most of this. The financial framework of MLB is broken right now, so the incentive to actually put revenue sharing money into the team does not exist. There's no salary floor, so there's no mandate to allocate money into the payroll. But there's also no chance of a small-market team suddenly rising up and becoming a contending team over a number of years, which means that there'd simply be a lot of wasted money year after year trying to maybe get one shot at the playoffs before sinking back into mediocrity.
There is incentive to put revenue sharing money into the team. It's required. There is incentive to turn things around and win. You can't look at it in a vacuum, you have to look at a 6-9 year general framework and see how the cyclical nature of sports works.

There IS a chance a small-market team suddenly rises up and becomes a contending team. FIVE TEAMS have done it in the last TWO SEASONS (CIN, BAL, OAK, TB, MIL). Oakland DEAD LAST in payroll and beat the big spending Rangers and Angels to win the West this year.

Here's how it's done:
You suck and draft high.
You make a couple trades, sending guys who are gonna be expensive and don't help you while you're sucking for prospects. (Owner doesn't make money, but doesn't lose a lot because expenses and revenue are both down).
Now the draft picks and prospects form a core that matures together. That young corp blossoms. (the team starts to contend, but makes little in payroll, so the owners make a profit as the stands start to fill)
You add some veterans to the young corps using that profit. (You make a lot of money, because the stands are full, the team is good, and your payroll is average)
Now the team becomes expensive, because the players hit free agency. If you are smart, you trade some soon-to-be expensive guys for players who are almost ready to blossom and get another year of average salary contenders. If you can't you sell off your assets to jump start the process of rebuilding (you make money this year because everyone bought season tickets after last year's success).

Lather. Rinse. Repeat.

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Old
11-14-2012, 03:24 PM
  #41
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Another success story of Don Fehr's time running the MLBPA.
?

This one's all on Selig buddy.

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Old
11-14-2012, 03:32 PM
  #42
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And they have never ever said this. They want revenue sharing to pocket more money. the cap is about saving money. Thats it. Thats all.
I thought the owners want less revenue sharing? And the players wanted more.

What about the floor?

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Old
11-14-2012, 07:35 PM
  #43
Melrose Munch
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I thought the owners want less revenue sharing? And the players wanted more.

What about the floor?
Small market owners want more, and the union/big markets are squabbling over who will pay up.


The floor, I think that debate is more about how much it should be. Obviously they want the floor to be lower if the are a small market.

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11-14-2012, 09:14 PM
  #44
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Donald Fehr: "The only sports stable in America is baseball."

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Old
11-14-2012, 09:22 PM
  #45
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Can't help but LOL at this quote from July:


Names in bold all gone.

Loria is a true snake. Took an already-hurting Expos franchise and detonated a nuke on it, then MLB salted the earth on its remains. He appears to be well on his way to doing the same to the Marlins.
Needless to say, I imagine Expo fans everywhere are saying, "karma *****."

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11-15-2012, 12:54 AM
  #46
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I won't make a comment on Loria and his devious ways, but I will say that the Marlins sucked last year. It isn't like they were a first place team, nor were they thought to be anything close to contenders this year. I really hope they can get a decent team, because they haven't had one since 1997.

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11-15-2012, 01:03 AM
  #47
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I won't make a comment on Loria and his devious ways, but I will say that the Marlins sucked last year. It isn't like they were a first place team, nor were they thought to be anything close to contenders this year. I really hope they can get a decent team, because they haven't had one since 1997.
You are forgetting 2003.

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Old
11-15-2012, 01:21 AM
  #48
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Originally Posted by cutchemist42 View Post
Jeff Passan rips Selig, the MLB, and Loria a new one.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/marlins...ves-blame.html
Reading again about the Expos, and the destroyed 2004 run, just burn my heart.

I'm am SEETHING WITH UNIMAGINABLE RAAAAGE .

He also attempted to get a new building in Montréal. He tried very very hard, but the government at the time decided otherwise. I'm so thankful. I'm not thankful about my meathead government very often, but on that one I am.

Now we know what he would have done as soon as he would have gotten the building. Since Québec's provincial government and Montréal were not willing to play along, they just killed the team. A RICO charge wasn't off mark at all, that's truly and verily racket.

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Old
11-15-2012, 02:22 AM
  #49
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One aspect of the pro player and Fehr crowd that trumpets MLB. I would love to see the players faces when they realized the attachment and rules that go to maintaining players contractual rights. Along with the system of compensation and tagging of free agents. My guess is they aren't too interested in that element of MLB.

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Old
11-15-2012, 08:26 AM
  #50
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Reading again about the Expos, and the destroyed 2004 run, just burn my heart.

I'm am SEETHING WITH UNIMAGINABLE RAAAAGE .

He also attempted to get a new building in Montréal. He tried very very hard, but the government at the time decided otherwise. I'm so thankful. I'm not thankful about my meathead government very often, but on that one I am.

Now we know what he would have done as soon as he would have gotten the building. Since Québec's provincial government and Montréal were not willing to play along, they just killed the team. A RICO charge wasn't off mark at all, that's truly and verily racket.
Yeah, the minority owners once they realized what Loria was doing got on the lawsuit right away. From what I understand, while everything looked fishy by Loria and the MLB, there just was not enough to prosecute.

There is an Expos book coming out soon I believe that is going to be considered one of the most indepth looks into the Expos saga.

I do think Loria and the MLB sabotaged the market intentionally, and do agree Montreal dodged a bullet. I wished Montreal stayed, but not with this man or under his terms.

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