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Off-season Madness the 3rd: Jeffrey Loria taketh and Jeffrey Loria giveth away

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Old
11-14-2012, 11:52 AM
  #526
Lebanese Leaf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dredeye View Post
They could paint it the retro blue colour we all love so much. At least it wouldn't look like a giant cinder block
Personally, I love this look at gate 5/6:



If they could follow that sort of theme and apply it to the entire exterior, the RC would look amazing from the outside.

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Old
11-14-2012, 11:53 AM
  #527
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There's no denying the Jays gave up value, but the fact that Loria lied to the Marlins fan base is just so disgusting.

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11-14-2012, 11:57 AM
  #528
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Originally Posted by Bjindaho View Post
I found that certain posters drew most of the ire because they'd use their own ignorance as part of an argument. We have added significantly, but there should still be some tinkering to do.

The funny thing is that the same people that caused the problems before are voicing one of two opinions now 1) I've been wronged and 2) The Jays fleeced Miami FTW!

The reality is that value-wise the deal is reasonably close given how much money we added, but we added a need whereas Miami devastated their fan base.
Come on man !!!! No way is this anything more than a salary dump by an owner who has screwed over 1 city so far in Montreal and now is doing it again to Miami.

Again you guys gotta stop with the I told you AA was going to to something like this Cause not one of you would have even thought about something like this....its a once in a lifetime fire sale that came along at the perfect time.

Say Drabek and Hutch are healthy and they finish at 81 wins this year do you think AA makes this deal? You think AA and goes out and gets 2 starters nope he rolls with those guys and hope for improvement.

It was a perfect storm of injuries, no depth at the higher AAA level, the kids not being ready Gose and Hech, Sierra and crappy record and pressure to compete now while the Yanks and Sox are down or flatlined.

I will give AA credit for swinging for the fences and now comes the hard part wins on the field.

Also if Johnson bolts at season end and Buck is gone after a year you have a

Burhele and Reyes for Escobar, Hech, Nicolin, Marisnick, Alvarez, Delscafini and that doesn't look as great.

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11-14-2012, 12:00 PM
  #529
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Originally Posted by Eyedea View Post
There's no denying the Jays gave up value, but the fact that Loria lied to the Marlins fan base is just so disgusting.
But he didn't really. He brought them prime free agents and they didn't show up. His business model sucks, but people have to show up when the owner spends the big bucks.

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11-14-2012, 12:02 PM
  #530
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Ralph is killing it in this thread, kudos to Ralph. He's a tremendous Canadian.

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11-14-2012, 12:03 PM
  #531
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Players are all reportedly at the Florida training sights getting physicals. Might happen later today, likely in the evening.
by Scott Carson 1:02 PM
ROgers sportsnet for any Questions if you guys wanna ask anything.

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11-14-2012, 12:04 PM
  #532
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http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/201..._scott_carson/

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11-14-2012, 12:04 PM
  #533
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Originally Posted by ryno23 View Post
Come on man !!!! No way is this anything more than a salary dump by an owner who has screwed over 1 city so far in Montreal and now is doing it again to Miami.

Again you guys gotta stop with the I told you AA was going to to something like this Cause not one of you would have even thought about something like this....its a once in a lifetime fire sale that came along at the perfect time.

Say Drabek and Hutch are healthy and they finish at 81 wins this year do you think AA makes this deal? You think AA and goes out and gets 2 starters nope he rolls with those guys and hope for improvement.

It was a perfect storm of injuries, no depth at the higher AAA level, the kids not being ready Gose and Hech, Sierra and crappy record and pressure to compete now while the Yanks and Sox are down or flatlined.

I will give AA credit for swinging for the fences and now comes the hard part wins on the field.

Also if Johnson bolts at season end and Buck is gone after a year you have a

Burhele and Reyes for Escobar, Hech, Nicolin, Marisnick, Alvarez, Delscafini and that doesn't look as great.
You are arguing both sides

Arguing that it isn't fair, but that it is because Johnson and Buck might bolt (considering that Johnson wasn't going to re-sign in MIA).

The point the pro-ownership crowd is making (of which I wasn't one) is that AA made moves to build the farm so that even if this deal doesn't happen, AA could have individually acquired all these assets.

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11-14-2012, 12:04 PM
  #534
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Fun fact I just heard on the radio:

The Vegas odds for the Jays to win the 2013 World Series were 100-1 yesterday before the trade. After the trade: 15-1.

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11-14-2012, 12:04 PM
  #535
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There's ryno! ahah (kidding, kind of)

I'll tackle some of your points.

1. Firesale - AA didn't have to trade with the Marlins, it just worked out that way, but he was still targeting pitchers.

2. Hutch and Drabek - If they were healthy, a lot of things would be different, but not much. Drabek was terribly inconsistent, and we would probably still need 2 pitchers because he wouldn't be a guarantee and we wouldn't likely have Happ

3. JJ bolts - we'd still have 3 players from the trade, the comp pick for JJ, and the goodwill that makes this team a lot more attractive. Trade wouldn't look as good, but if this team contends, there's not much to worry about.

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Old
11-14-2012, 12:04 PM
  #536
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndMat View Post
Players are all reportedly at the Florida training sights getting physicals. Might happen later today, likely in the evening.
by Scott Carson 1:02 PM
ROgers sportsnet for any Questions if you guys wanna ask anything.
good

why do i get the feeling AA has another deal or 2 in the works ?

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Old
11-14-2012, 12:05 PM
  #537
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Originally Posted by The Amazing Ralph View Post
There was PLENTY of reasons to hold the opinion "Rogers is Cheap" UNTIL approximately 6:15 PM yesterday. I see no reason as to why that attitude was invalid. The Jays had a pretty low payroll and are owned by a mega-corporation with DEEP DEEP pockets. It is highly understandable that people would get pissed off when they see division rivals outspending them and typically making the playoffs, whereas the Jays hadn't been relevant since 1993.

NOW, it is not appropriate to hold the view "Rogers is Cheap". The amount of money they have spent acquiring these players is proof.
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Originally Posted by theaub View Post
This is completely accurate tbh. There was absolutely no indication that Rogers would spend money until yesterday. As much as the Jays said they would spend money I don't see how anyone can be blamed for taking the "I'll believe it when I see it" approach.
Actually, it's complete nonsense. Rogers had spent handsomely on free agents through the 2000's under Ricciardi's direction, so they had clearly demonstrated that they were willing to spend on the team. They were always willing to do so if it gave them a winning product, because they're not stupid - they know that when it comes to sports other than the Leafs, Torontonians only come out for winners. And they know that a full Rogers Centre is a very profitable operation, particularly when combined with the impact of winning content on their other revenue channels.

But when Ricciardi's program failed to deliver the expected results, they made a smart business move and brought in a baseball operations team that had a plan for achieving sustainable success over the long term. There was one caveat: it would require blowing things up and going through a systematic rebuild of the organization, from the scouting department to the development coaches to the minor-league depth to, yes, the major league roster. And it would take time - during which process it did not make sense to tie up buckets of money on the MLB product. So they didn't.

Anthopolous and Beeston always maintained that this process would take until now to show results at the MLB level. They also confirmed - as did Rogers executives - that the dollars would be there for them when they needed them. And - lo and behold! - they are.

Skepticism is understandable: this is Toronto, after all, where sports fans have been held hostage by incompetent Leafs management for decades. But there's a big difference between being instinctively and subjectively distrusting of management and having an argument based in fact. The "Rogers is cheap" arguments were not based in fact, and were criticized accordingly.

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Old
11-14-2012, 12:05 PM
  #538
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Johnson agent told Jeff Blair this morning on Sportsnet Fan590, they'll likely get somehting done early in the season once they see what they've go
Thats Great news right there.

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Old
11-14-2012, 12:05 PM
  #539
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Can we move past the discussion on who is/isn't a fan, and maybe the infighting about attitudes please? I think we're all pretty excited about the trade and what it means, and there's no reason we can't ride that for a while and get some enjoyment out of the afterglow without bickering over what amount to small issues in the grand scheme of things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jcollins View Post
What an insane trade. So pumped. Glad AA pulled off something major to quiet all his doubters.

What does JJ throw? Buehrle? I've watched them pitch before but never really paid attention to the details.
based on Fangraphs' pitch type data:

Johnson: 93-95 mph fastball, 87-88 mph slider, occasional 86-87mph change with some sink, and 77-78 curve

There's also a Johnson scouting analysis here: http://www.yankeeanalysts.com/2012/0...-johnson-43291

It reads in part like a physics analysis, which is more than we really need, but aside from that it still explains what he throws fairly well and has gifs of each pitch. It also says he throws a sinker, though I wonder if it's maybe just them making too much out of improperly thrown changeups that don't have the velocity dip they should.

Buehrle: 85-86 fastball, 79-80 slider, 77-79ish change, 82-83 cutter, 70-72 curve. So basically the kitchen sink.

scouting report on Buehrle here: http://baseballscoutingreports.wordp...-mark-grade55/

they don't mention the cutter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Man Bear Pig View Post
Since when it Cecil an "asset". He's been horrendous and it easily replaceable from within. You dump him or release him. He is that bad. And there's still no word from Oliver, who's option was picked up but he hasnt decided on retirement yet. Cecil shouldn't even get a sniff with this team, good riddance.
Cecil was much, much, much improved when he was in the pen vs when he was a starter. His velocity returned to its older levels, and he was generally more effective. If Oliver isn't back, Cecil is the guy most likely to inherit his role.

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Old
11-14-2012, 12:06 PM
  #540
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How I would proceed.
Trade for Justin Upton (Arencibia + prospects).
Swap Buehrle with the Cubs for Garza.
Sign Raul Ibanez for DH.
Sign Jeremy Guthrie as 5th starter.
Hire Sandy Alomar Jr.

Reyes SS
Upton LF
Bautista RF
EE 1B
Lawrie 3B
Ibanez DH
Rasmus CF
Buck/D'Arnaud C
Bonifacio/Izturis 2B

JJ
Morrow
Garza
Romero
Guthrie


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Old
11-14-2012, 12:09 PM
  #541
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quik View Post
There's ryno! ahah (kidding, kind of)

I'll tackle some of your points.

1. Firesale - AA didn't have to trade with the Marlins, it just worked out that way, but he was still targeting pitchers.

2. Hutch and Drabek - If they were healthy, a lot of things would be different, but not much. Drabek was terribly inconsistent, and we would probably still need 2 pitchers because he wouldn't be a guarantee and we wouldn't likely have Happ

3. JJ bolts - we'd still have 3 players from the trade, the comp pick for JJ, and the goodwill that makes this team a lot more attractive. Trade wouldn't look as good, but if this team contends, there's not much to worry about.

Listen I love the deal and have been wanting this type of move and payroll hike for a few years.

AA trading with the Marlins I am sure was him approaching them knowing that they were selling everyone off.

Its like going to a garage sale and asking how much is this trinket worth and if they say $5 then you say well what if I add those 3 other things how much would it cost and they come back and say $10 cause they want to get rid of them all at once.

You jump on that deal knowing dealing each piece pn its own would be more expensive.

Again finally Rogers and AA finally listen to me and open up their wallets and makes this team good again HAHA I knew if I wrote that letter just like I did back in the day to Santa Clause I would get what I wanted haha.

I better call Rogers today and get rid of my cable, cellphone and internet cause I know there is a huge hike in costs coming to pay off the shinny new payroll for the Jays HAHA

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Old
11-14-2012, 12:11 PM
  #542
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Originally Posted by The Amazing Ralph View Post
They ostracized a ton of fans...I read their thread on their main fan forum, and it was pretty sad.

I can't imagine being taken for a ride like that.

Imagine the Jays get taxpayer dollars to build a new stadium and then once its built immediately strip the team of basically ALL its talent...I'd be pissed off.
Something we agree on.

Loria is a disgrace, he should lose the team at the earliest opportunity, and should be banned from ever purchasing another sports team - in any league or sport.

Thank goodness for the Heat, much as a I hate them - without them you've got the Panthers, Dolphins and Marlins. That's almost Toronto-level futility right there.

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11-14-2012, 12:11 PM
  #543
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Amazing Ralph View Post
For example: My friend goes to around 10 games a year, and watches every single game on TV, and records the games that he misses. However, he has no idea what the hell WAR is
So? Not everyone is big on hipster stats. Majority of hardcore baseball fans don't know what WAR is.

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Old
11-14-2012, 12:11 PM
  #544
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Johnson agent told Jeff Blair this morning on Sportsnet Fan590, they'll likely get somehting done early in the season once they see what they've go
Thats Great news right there.
meaning we expect Johnson to have his contract extended by AA at that time ?

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11-14-2012, 12:14 PM
  #545
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I've heard a couple mentions of Jays adding cash. How much money was apart of the trade to Miami?

Also this turf/grass thing always pops up. Are there plans to have grass in the Rogers Center for the start of the 2013 season?

Lastly, I like that news of Johnson considering re-inking

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11-14-2012, 12:14 PM
  #546
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Originally Posted by Lebanese Leaf View Post
Personally, I love this look at gate 5/6:



If they could follow that sort of theme and apply it to the entire exterior, the RC would look amazing from the outside.
Could we change the name to the Rogers' Bird Cage?

- The Blue Jays play there
- There's always birds flying around the joint
- The underside of the dome is a giant mess of steel frames

It's the Rogers' Bird Cage

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11-14-2012, 12:15 PM
  #547
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Speaking of new stadium... I know we won't get one anytime soon, but the Rogers Centre deserves a big image haul. It looks so ugly from the outside, something has to be done if we're going to be in it for the long haul.
that and the CN tower, there's got to be something that can be done to make concrete look better...right? Some sort of coating? Or are we destined to look like some crumbling Soviet city

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11-14-2012, 12:16 PM
  #548
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Also this turf/grass thing always pops up. Are there plans to have grass in the Rogers Center for the start of the 2013 season?
that would be amazing, the turf is the worst part of the dome.

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11-14-2012, 12:16 PM
  #549
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndMat View Post
Johnson agent told Jeff Blair this morning on Sportsnet Fan590, they'll likely get somehting done early in the season once they see what they've go
Thats Great news right there.
To be fair to those who didn't hear it, the agent also stated there might be another shoe to drop becaus a lot of teams were interested in JJ...

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11-14-2012, 12:18 PM
  #550
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lebanese Leaf View Post
Personally, I love this look at gate 5/6:



If they could follow that sort of theme and apply it to the entire exterior, the RC would look amazing from the outside.
Now imagine that with a little retro blue. If I had any photoshop ability I'd just do it.

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