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Waning fan passion - a growing concern

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Old
11-14-2012, 10:57 AM
  #101
Bongo
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http://espn.go.com/nhl/attendance/_/year/2012

Nashville looks like they're doing okay. That doesn't seem to stop the haters though.

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Old
11-14-2012, 11:36 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by NJDevs26 View Post
I wouldn't go that far but decreased attendance and fan backlash a la baseball in '95 would ultimately get the message through, the way it did in that sport.
I realize the hoping for the destruction of the league is probably unrealistic as it won't happen but I just want these people to suffer. So I will continue to hope for the worst possible outcome for the players in particular.

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Old
11-14-2012, 11:52 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by octopi View Post
In some cities they will, in others they will not.

Even the most passionate of us are getting disgruntled but the apparent lack of 'give a damn' by either side. This game is so important, blah blah blah. This history of this league is important, blah blah blah. Well really? Start playing again,act like it matters. I'm beginning to think the game doesn't.
mark me down as one of those. I've been watching and following major junior and NBA, and while I miss the NHL, these replacement forms of entertainment are sufficing.

the integrity of the league has plummmeted. Most hardcore fans will continue to watch and follow (tho, i think many will spend much less hard cash), but we all see the NHL in a different light. It is not a serious, highend league.

Owners, you are damaging your brand. You are less serious than UFC. you are making it embarrassing to be an NHL fan. If a generation comes to see your league as a joke (possibly too late), the NHL is done.

Players, you are deluded. You are not on equal footing with your bosses. THEY ARE THE OWNERS!!!! this isn't about 'fairness'. they tell you how it is, an you lump it. welcome to the owner/employee relationship.

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Old
11-14-2012, 12:01 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Plan The Parade View Post
Actually, Carolina, Atlanta, Nashville, Pittsburgh, Anaheim, San Jose, Tampa Bay Phoenix and Florida all saw increases in attendance from the 03-04 season to the 05-06 season. The five "non-traditional" markets that saw decreases were Dallas, New Jersey, St. Louis, Washington and Columbus. Colorado and LA were stagnant.
So we have 9 that saw an increase, 5 that did not and 2 that were stagnant.

As for "traditional" markets, Montreal, Toronto, Philadelphia, Minnesota, Ottawa, Calgary, Buffalo, Chicago and the Rangers all saw increases, while Edmonton and the Islanders decreased and Detroit and Vancouver remained static.

This most likely had to do with League wide increase in attendance from 03-04 to 05-06. Funny- the NHL attendance actually increased in the seasons between the lockout.

I'm not going to analyze these numbers (yet), but they suggest that you are wrong.
interesting. but the first lockout was seen as a necessity and a 'one-off'. if they solve it and never have a work stoppage again (or for at least 30 years) then the league will be fine.

but, shutting down your product every 7 years can't be good. a lengthy work stoppage is now, perhaps, the most predicable thing about the NHL. That, and the penalties being called for obstruction and holding softening in the playoffs.

if your brand is a joke, it can't be good.

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Old
11-14-2012, 12:13 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Bongo View Post
http://espn.go.com/nhl/attendance/_/year/2012

Nashville looks like they're doing okay. That doesn't seem to stop the haters though.
They also received a subsidy from the city to the tune of 10 million dollars. Because Nashville is doing among the better of the non traditional markets does not mean that they are doing fine.

And I'm getting really tired of being called a hater when you point out that some teams are not doing well and will have an extremely difficult time going forward. I swear, I really wished that all markets could succeed, I get no satisfaction is bad mouthing new markets.

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11-14-2012, 12:16 PM
  #106
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If they are doing it right, why do they need RS dollars ? And as I said, I have no doubt that there are GREAT FANS in every market, the question is their number. If it gets below a certain point, the team is no longer sustainable in that market. That's not a knock on the passion you have for the game, its a simple question of economics.

I hope that Nashville makes a go of it, I really do. I would hope that all of the new markets could but the evidence so far says that its not likely to happen. I think if efforts can be made to stabilize the team then these efforts should be made, but if a teams existence is going to be forever dependent on RS from have markets, as much as it sucks that's a market that the nhl would benefit from leaving.

I still think the question is how long should we give the teams ? I also think that saying " they have had enough time already" is as irresponsible as saying " they need RS for another 30 or forty years". If RS dollars were tied to metrics of improving the stability of the team in their markets, this is money well spent. If it is simply a way for teams to spend low and become the royals of the nhl, then that's not as good.
Building a market isn't an overnight process.

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Old
11-14-2012, 12:20 PM
  #107
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interesting. but the first lockout was seen as a necessity and a 'one-off'. if they solve it and never have a work stoppage again (or for at least 30 years) then the league will be fine.

but, shutting down your product every 7 years can't be good. a lengthy work stoppage is now, perhaps, the most predicable thing about the NHL. That, and the penalties being called for obstruction and holding softening in the playoffs.

if your brand is a joke, it can't be good.
That's my frustration... If the owners get everything they want every 7 years when they lock the players out, what incentive do they have to settle a CBA in the offseason to avoid missing games. Just bite the bullet, miss a few games, wait for the NHLPA to cave, and get what you want.

I actually want things to get worse with this lockout. I want the NHLPA to be stronger. I want there to be REAL incentive to sign future CBA's in the offseason so that isn't a lockout or a strike.

I just want hockey. Now, and in the future. But if it takes more pain now for all of them to realize how bad this makes the situation for fans, then by all means, pile on all the pain we can. If it keeps us going through this every time a CBA expires, it is worth it.

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Old
11-14-2012, 12:24 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
They also received a subsidy from the city to the tune of 10 million dollars. Because Nashville is doing among the better of the non traditional markets does not mean that they are doing fine.

And I'm getting really tired of being called a hater when you point out that some teams are not doing well and will have an extremely difficult time going forward. I swear, I really wished that all markets could succeed, I get no satisfaction is bad mouthing new markets.
That's between the owners and the elected officials. I'm not a socialist. I've never understood taxpayer support for owners.

And you don't consider 97.5% attendance doing well?

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Old
11-14-2012, 12:32 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Bongo View Post
And you don't consider 97.5% attendance doing well?
Neither the raw attendance numbers nor percentage of capacity mean much on their own; what matters is the revenue generated by that attendance and the revenue weight relative to the league mean.

I recall reading somewhere recently that Weber's bonus & salary for this season will eat the vast majority of the Preds' entire ticket sales income for the season - and that was based upon the assumption that a full season would be played out this year. That isn't a good sign for the future.

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Last edited by Gump Hasek: 11-14-2012 at 12:39 PM. Reason: added link to gate revenue
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Old
11-14-2012, 12:32 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by sandysan View Post

The question is whether this hypothetical number is going to increase, I think you could develop a market with this number initially but if after a decade this number is not higher ( or goes down) then what is the alternative ? Replace local support with rs dollars from markets where people actually care about the game?
Interestingly enough, St. Louis, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia and Los Angeles all saw significant increases in their attendance after they started winning.

The NHL is a gate driven league: market is tied to revenue; revenue is tied to ticket sales; ticket sales are tied to attendance; attendance is tied to winning.

Building a market requires a winning team at some point. I can not think of a sports market that can not attribute at least part of its success to winning.

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11-14-2012, 01:05 PM
  #111
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This doesn't work in big markets. And the season off from paying has been a boon to everyone anyway.

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11-14-2012, 01:09 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by MISC View Post
I would like to cancel my 5 season tickets in an act of anger/frustration, but somebody will buy them 2 minutes later.

That's what's frustrating in a hockey market like Vancouver.
What's more frustrating is the 135,000 Vancouverites than claim to hold at least two season tickets.

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11-14-2012, 01:14 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Bongo View Post
That's between the owners and the elected officials. I'm not a socialist. I've never understood taxpayer support for owners.

And you don't consider 97.5% attendance doing well?
If the options are

a) taxpayer support which then keeps high paying jobs in the city as well as arena related jobs & the arena itself booked for 41 nights or,

b) lose the team

it's not hard to understand. While you can choose b for many reasons, you do not ned to be a socialist to see the other side.

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Old
11-14-2012, 01:22 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by craigcaulks View Post
If the options are

a) taxpayer support which then keeps high paying jobs in the city as well as arena related jobs & the arena itself booked for 41 nights or,

b) lose the team

it's not hard to understand. While you can choose b for many reasons, you do not ned to be a socialist to see the other side.
What high paying jobs? Bartenders and wait staff do allright on game nights but those aren't high paying jobs.

If GE wanted to build a plant in your town, they would reach out to the proper officials to insure that they got a good deal on the land and that it was close to rail lines and expressways. They wouldn't ask the taxpayers to build the plant or keep it up once it was built. I don't see why pro teams think they're any different.

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Old
11-14-2012, 02:59 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Plan The Parade
Actually, Carolina, Atlanta, Nashville, Pittsburgh, Anaheim, San Jose, Tampa Bay Phoenix and Florida all saw increases in attendance from the 03-04 season to the 05-06 season.
The only reason attendance (#s) increased was that the Sharks reformatted a few things around the arena and added a bunch of seats. (Including moving the broadcasters -- home/away TV, radio -- from the bottom of the upper rim to the "roof".)

Sharks have pretty much sold out every RS/playoff game since.
No. The reason that there was a significant increase in Sharks attendance from '03-'04 to '05-'06 is that attendance in '03-'04 was down due to the abysmal year in '02-'03 - miss the playoffs for the first time in 8 years, fire the coach, fire the GM, and trade away the Captain and face of the franchise.

The Sharks had their lowest attendance in a year that turned out to be the Sharks best year in their history up to that point - they won the division (for only the second time in their history) with a team record 104 points and made it to the WCF.

However, a drop in the STH base due to low expectations and a slow start to the season (only one win in October) led to significantly lower attendance during the first part of the season. Attendance is a lagging indicator - if you lose STHs in the offseason, it is virtually impossible to make up that attendance with single game sales.

The Sharks STH base did not fully recover after '03-'04 due to the Lockout - a drop in STHs from their pre-'02-'03 levels (capped at ~14K) led to lower attendance in '05-'06 (and their pre-Joe swoon in Oct-Nov certainly didn't help). That was one of the few years (along with 1994 and 2004) that the Sharks offered STH the options to buy add'l playoff tickets (due to the lower STH base).


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Old
11-14-2012, 04:42 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Plan The Parade View Post
Interestingly enough, St. Louis, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia and Los Angeles all saw significant increases in their attendance after they started winning.

The NHL is a gate driven league: market is tied to revenue; revenue is tied to ticket sales; ticket sales are tied to attendance; attendance is tied to winning.

Building a market requires a winning team at some point. I can not think of a sports market that can not attribute at least part of its success to winning.
the cubs and the leafs ?

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Old
11-14-2012, 04:47 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Bongo View Post
That's between the owners and the elected officials. I'm not a socialist. I've never understood taxpayer support for owners.

And you don't consider 97.5% attendance doing well?
So if the preds are doing fine, and this subsidy goes away ( as some politicians have advocated) where do this shortage come from ?

The coyotes demonstrate that you cant keep subsidising a team while other community needs get savaged. Or more accurately you cant do it for long before the torches and pitchforks come out.

And I agree that 97.5 attendance is great, but if some of those seats are filled because the tickets are artifically cheap then that does not help much. The discrepancy between the preds and the habs is not based on attendance, but on the revenue the habs make keeping the bell center at 975 capacity and above.

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11-14-2012, 04:49 PM
  #118
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Building a market isn't an overnight process.
is it shorter than the 100 year war ?

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11-14-2012, 05:06 PM
  #119
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I'll come back but I'm Canadian, and the sport will be fine in Canada.

I think the damage done in the US will be severe though.

Even for me, I'm done with buying any NHL merchandise (no jerseys, hats, shirts, etc.) for at least the next couple of years and while I will watch on TV, honestly I don't think I'll go to more than 1 or 2 games this "season" (provided there is one).

If I was a fan in the US, honestly I'd just drop the NHL for the NFL/NBA and be done with it.

It's got to suck being a hockey fan in the US trying to convince friends and family that the NHL is a worthwhile product and then have both the owners and players slap you in the face like this.

If I was a fringe/casual fan, I'd never come back.

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Old
11-14-2012, 05:51 PM
  #120
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If these buffoons lose an entire season, it will take 2-3 seasons to get it back, so to speak...and a couple of teams will leave the US for Quebec and Markham...

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11-14-2012, 06:25 PM
  #121
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I'll come back but I'm Canadian, and the sport will be fine in Canada.

I think the damage done in the US will be severe though.

Even for me, I'm done with buying any NHL merchandise (no jerseys, hats, shirts, etc.) for at least the next couple of years and while I will watch on TV, honestly I don't think I'll go to more than 1 or 2 games this "season" (provided there is one).

If I was a fan in the US, honestly I'd just drop the NHL for the NFL/NBA and be done with it.

It's got to suck being a hockey fan in the US trying to convince friends and family that the NHL is a worthwhile product and then have both the owners and players slap you in the face like this.

If I was a fringe/casual fan, I'd never come back.
I'm a Canadian too so I know what hockey means to this country.
Canada really doesn't excel in too many major teams sports, sp hockey is source of great national pride.

For sure Canadian fans will come back to the NHL but sure will have a sour taste in their mouth for a long time.

Americans are nice people too but in general far less passionate about hockey unless they grew up with it in the cold weather areas with history and tradition.

The NHL needs the Canadian passion but also the American money to make it seem close to a major sport.This is why there are so many American teams that are struggling instead of Canadian cities.

All fans would want a stronger league and Canadians would want those weak U.S. franchises relocated to Canada first and stronger markets in the U.S. if there were any.

Having said this the average Joe wonders why the players are so greedy? Even the lowest paid player cannot relate to the average salary of most people. This is why there is growing disdain the longer the lockout goes on.

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11-14-2012, 07:55 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by Plan The Parade
while Edmonton and the Islanders decreased
Just pointing out that Edmonton "decreased" because of the outdoor game in '03.

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11-14-2012, 07:58 PM
  #123
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I was going to type a long post on my waning passion for the NHL but I can't be bothered to put forth the effort.

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11-14-2012, 08:02 PM
  #124
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Missing 2 seasons in the last decade, while already being the fourth most popular sport in North America, at best, provides a quick road to becoming irrelevant.

Hope you enjoyed it players, while the NFL and NBA players are playing for relatively less, you've effectively shot yourself in the foot in the short and long term.

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11-14-2012, 11:24 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by Soundwave View Post
If I was a fan in the US, honestly I'd just drop the NHL for the NFL/NBA and be done with it.

It's got to suck being a hockey fan in the US trying to convince friends and family that the NHL is a worthwhile product and then have both the owners and players slap you in the face like this.

If I was a fringe/casual fan, I'd never come back.
yep. hockey fans will be on par with Affliction t-shirt wearing, UFC yahoos.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skraut View Post
That's my frustration... If the owners get everything they want every 7 years when they lock the players out, what incentive do they have to settle a CBA in the offseason to avoid missing games. Just bite the bullet, miss a few games, wait for the NHLPA to cave, and get what you want.

I actually want things to get worse with this lockout. I want the NHLPA to be stronger. I want there to be REAL incentive to sign future CBA's in the offseason so that isn't a lockout or a strike.

I just want hockey. Now, and in the future. But if it takes more pain now for all of them to realize how bad this makes the situation for fans, then by all means, pile on all the pain we can. If it keeps us going through this every time a CBA expires, it is worth it.
there is merit to this view, but do you really think another year off will prevent another work stoppage? it all comes back to a respect for, and the integrity of, your product. these things just don't enter into the picture for either the NHL or PA. it is only dollars and cents. they are completely oblivious to the fact that they are seen as a complete joke.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buttonwood View Post
Missing 2 seasons in the last decade, while already being the fourth most popular sport in North America, at best, provides a quick road to becoming irrelevant.

Hope you enjoyed it players, while the NFL and NBA players are playing for relatively less, you've effectively shot yourself in the foot in the short and long term.
completely agree. it is not a guarentee to be doom for the NHL, but another lost season is playing with disaster. how many hardcore Canadian hockey fans have you heard that they will not spend another cent on the NHL if they gas the season? I've heard at least a dozen (myself included). you gotta figure at least a few will make good on their proclaimation, and probably all will spend less then otherwise.

they've lost alot of respect.

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