This trade isnt as bad for the Marlins as many think it is.
First off, they get rid of bad contracts. Reyes had a healthy season last year and that isnt the usual status quo. He will help the Jays when he is healthy, and now he doesnt have the burden of living up to that contract now in Toronto and will no doubt be back where he usually is on the DL. Good, not great player whose career year was when he was in a contract year. Better then what the Jays had, but thats not saying much.
Buehrle was the best piece in this deal. An inning eater who has a proven track record for being a winner. A WS champion who should be the guy to mentor the young guys in Toronto. He will give you 200 innings, but he is past his prime. That back loaded contract will be an albatross soon enough.
JJ is one year. I, imo, highly doubt he wants to stay in Toronto after this year. I question his health, but think he should be energized next year pitching for his payday.
The rest was fluff.
And the Marlins fleeced a bevy of the Jays farm system while getting rid of all those huge contracts and dropping their payroll down to 16 mil. Not bad. Loria is a huge piece of trash and doesnt deserve that team, but in reality, its his team to do as he pleases. In a business stand point, its a brilliant move.
How does this help the Jays? Well, theres still the Yankees and Rays in that division. This traded doesnt make them closer to that caliber of team, imo. A huge trade didnt help the Dodgers last year and this one, with even more question marks, doesnt magicly place the Jays into a position of being a contender.
The Jays got bigger names, but the Marlins get piece of mind and can restart the building by taking many pieces from one of the best prospect pools in baseball. The Jays put all of their eggs in one basket and are hoping next year is the year, it seems.
Right now, its a toss up. We shall see what happens in a few months.
Just because Keith Law says Josh Jonhson won't not re-sign with Toronto since he is a free agent in 2013 is a dumb thing to say. It might be a fact about his contract status, however what proof does he have that it will become true?
The example you used about the Dodgers making a similar trade there is one thing you forgot. Their major trade was done during the season and they couldn't make up the games they were behind the Giants. At least the Blue Jays have all season to contend since they are starting from scratch.
The Blue Jays still have a great minor league system and I the loss of some of those prospects won't change it.
I bet if this was the New York Yankees who made this exact same trade people would be willing to say what a great move for them since they are always contenders. However when people see the Toronto Blue Jays make this move some want to use an excuse that it won't work out for them because of the city they play in. Last night on ESPN from what I saw John Kruk basically talked about what the Marlins gave up. Now maybe they did a segment on what the Blue Jays got, however I didn't see one. So I think there is some Toronto bias from others because a Canadian team made this deal.
CHICAGO -- On his way into the baseball owners meetings here, Marlins owner Jeffrey Loria in an interview with CBSSports.com defended the megadeal with the Blue Jays that has been characterized as a "fire sale'' in many places.
"We finished in last place. Figure it out,'' a defiant Loria said.
Loria emphatically said he isn't selling the team.
"Absolutely not,'' Loria said. 'That's more stupidity.''
Loria took issue with the coverage and suggested selling the team's veteran stars was the right course of action.
"We have to get better,'' Loria said. "We can't finish in last place. We finished in last place. That's unacceptable. We have to take a new course.''
...
"Wonderful guy. I love Jose Reyes,'' Loria said. 'What's not to love?"
There's some rumblings that with the acquisition of Buck and the progression of D'Arnaud, along with his upcoming payday, the Jays might now be looking to deal JPA. Anyone care to speculate on who would be interested and what he might be worth?
I bet if this was the New York Yankees who made this exact same trade people would be willing to say what a great move for them since they are always contenders. However when people see the Toronto Blue Jays make this move some want to use an excuse that it won't work out for them because of the city they play in. Last night on ESPN from what I saw John Kruk basically talked about what the Marlins gave up. Now maybe they did a segment on what the Blue Jays got, however I didn't see one. So I think there is some Toronto bias from others because a Canadian team made this deal.
To be fair most people are saying the Jays killed on this deal. The people talking bad about it are all American baseball media people and that's nothing new. It's been like that for 30 years.
If we're going to bring up all the negatives about the Marlins players, then its only fair to do the same about the guys the Jays are moving
Theres negatives for every single MLB player to go along with the positives. The biggest positive for the Marlins in this situation is their former problems had huge contracts that are now on another team. Nothing can trump that considering the Marlins thought a new stadium and freely paying out so much money would have transformed them into being a team that Florida would want to watch.
It didnt.
So, they scrapped that template and did what they are known for doing, trading away their top players for premium prospects, this time, from a team that had a bevy of top rated prospects they could pick and choose from. Financially, its what they had to do and restarts yet another changing of the guard where no matter what they do, they will never get the kind of attendance numbers they think they deserve. The Marlins found a sucker in AA to take all those contracts while giving up enough cheap talent in return that the Marlins can be just as bad as last year while saving a whole lot of money in the process.
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Originally Posted by theaub
Escobar - known headcase who's worn out his welcome with both franchises he's played for
And an excellent trade chip come the deadline for a team in need of a excellent defensive short stop who can hit a bit.
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Originally Posted by theaub
Hechavarria - amazing defender but hasn't shown anything close to a plus hit tool; could just be a slightly better hitting Jose Iglesias
But also makes the Marlins up the middle defense that much better then Reyes could ever do.
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Originally Posted by theaub
Alvarez - can't strike anyone out, will need to develop an out pitch to succeed
Inning eater, led the Jays in innings pitched if I recall, so takes over Bur's spot as the resident every 5th day guy while at a much, much cheaper cost.
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Originally Posted by theaub
Mathis - backup catcher
Fluff
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Originally Posted by theaub
Nicolino/Marisnick/DeScalfini - all of them are good prospects, but none of them will be hitting a ML roster before 2015 and who knows what can happen by then
But all cheap, and have a MLB ceiling and dont have to do anything but refine their game in the minors while the Marlins continue their next rebuild.
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Originally Posted by theaub
The biggest joke of that guy's posts is he's implying that the Marlins gutted the Jays farm systems or something when by absolutely everyone's rankings Florida didn't get the Jays best two prospects (D'Arnaud and Sanchez), and per the Fangraphs rankings that came out last week got #5, #6 and #10.
D'Arnaud is as brittle as they come and already a 23 year old prospect at a position where the wear and tear will catch up to him sooner then later. The Marlins were smart not to choose him if they had the chance. On last years BBA prospect list, Marisnick was the Jays number three prospect, with Nicolino five and DeScalfini moving up the charts fast. That is an unglodly haul for a 33 year old pitcher, and two injury prone players alone, not mentioning what else the Marlins also recieved and all the money they now freed up. And lets not forget that the Jays had one of the best farm systems in baseball before this trade and many of those same prospects would be ranked higher on other teams lists if they were there, so gutted is the right word when three top ten rated prospects are dealt for aging vets on bloated contracts.
I highly doubt it would have taken that much talent to aquire three question marks such as that, but the rumors persist that other teams were in play for those players and that AA just blew everybody away with his offer bidding against himself. Imo, I just dont think this is enough to put the Jays at the top of the east and think a few more moves need to be made to make them an actual contender. And this is before the other teams in the division make moves to better themselves. Thats where the Jays are right now, a decent start.
Just because Keith Law says Josh Jonhson won't not re-sign with Toronto since he is a free agent in 2013 is a dumb thing to say. It might be a fact about his contract status, however what proof does he have that it will become true?
You have to ask Keith Law that one. I dont see JJ staying myself, but thats on account of some team will offer him huge money even tho I dont think personally an injury prone pitcher such as JJ is worth it.
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Originally Posted by LEAFS FAN 4 EVER
The example you used about the Dodgers making a similar trade there is one thing you forgot. Their major trade was done during the season and they couldn't make up the games they were behind the Giants. At least the Blue Jays have all season to contend since they are starting from scratch.
In referencing the Dodgers trade, I was saying one huge trade doesnt make a pretender a sudden contender. The Jays, right now, are still in pretender mode. And maybe with a couple more moves they can solidify their team into actually belonging in the east instead of at the bottom of the division when every team in that division will be better by the time spring training starts. Right now, if the season started today, I would predict that the Jays come in last place in the east only because the other teams are still a bit better, and that includes a Red Sox team that self destructed last year. Thats a huge division with proven winners in the Yankees and Rays. Its a good start, at least for the Jays.
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Originally Posted by LEAFS FAN 4 EVER
The Blue Jays still have a great minor league system and I the loss of some of those prospects won't change it.
It sure does. Three top ten players suddenly gone changes the entire landscape of their minor league system.
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Originally Posted by LEAFS FAN 4 EVER
I bet if this was the New York Yankees who made this exact same trade people would be willing to say what a great move for them since they are always contenders. However when people see the Toronto Blue Jays make this move some want to use an excuse that it won't work out for them because of the city they play in. Last night on ESPN from what I saw John Kruk basically talked about what the Marlins gave up. Now maybe they did a segment on what the Blue Jays got, however I didn't see one. So I think there is some Toronto bias from others because a Canadian team made this deal.
There is no conspiracy. The Jays took a gamble. Thats it. It remains to be seen how it will work out.
Theres negatives for every single MLB player to go along with the positives. The biggest positive for the Marlins in this situation is their former problems had huge contracts that are now on another team. Nothing can trump that considering the Marlins thought a new stadium and freely paying out so much money would have transformed them into being a team that Florida would want to watch.
You clearly know nothing of the Marlins, their owner is a borderline crook and this is just a way to make more money until the inevitable sale or move.
Reyes won the batting title in 2011, you now refer to him solely as "injury prone"; while referring to a player who has essentially been kicked off two teams for his attitude as, "...an excellent trade chip come the deadline for a team in need of a excellent defensive short stop who can hit a bit."
Come on man, just a little context, just a little.
It sure does. Three top ten players suddenly gone changes the entire landscape of their minor league system.
Do you have a link, or an explanation of how you came to this conclusion?
If (for example) I trade my #8, 9, and 10 prospects, the entire landscape of my minor league system changes? How does it change? What are the negative ramifications?
In referencing the Dodgers trade, I was saying one huge trade doesnt make a pretender a sudden contender. The Jays, right now, are still in pretender mode. And maybe with a couple more moves they can solidify their team into actually belonging in the east instead of at the bottom of the division when every team in that division will be better by the time spring training starts. Right now, if the season started today, I would predict that the Jays come in last place in the east only because the other teams are still a bit better, and that includes a Red Sox team that self destructed last year. Thats a huge division with proven winners in the Yankees and Rays. Its a good start, at least for the Jays.
You have got to be kidding me. Last year, the Jays finished fourth with 4 more wins than the Red Sox. The Jays improved, what has the Red Sox done so far?
The Jays, right now, are still in pretender mode. And maybe with a couple more moves they can solidify their team into actually belonging in the east instead of at the bottom of the division when every team in that division will be better by the time spring training starts. Right now, if the season started today, I would predict that the Jays come in last place in the east only because the other teams are still a bit better, and that includes a Red Sox team that self destructed last year. Thats a huge division with proven winners in the Yankees and Rays. Its a good start, at least for the Jays.
What makes the Red Sox better? They weren't last year and all they've done is trade major pieces away.
What moves would the Jays need to make to solidify their team, out of last place?
You clearly know nothing of the Marlins, their owner is a borderline crook and this is just a way to make more money until the inevitable sale or move.
I know all about Loria and have stated in this thread he is trash. But, I also see that he tried to spend money and Florida as a whole didnt bother. He did what he had to do, thats it. You cant fault a guy for looking at his bottom line.
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Originally Posted by Gobias Industries
Reyes won the batting title in 2011, you now refer to him solely as "injury prone"; while referring to a player who has essentially been kicked off two teams for his attitude as, "...an excellent trade chip come the deadline for a team in need of a excellent defensive short stop who can hit a bit."
Reyes is also getting paid a ton of money and has never played a full season in his entire MLB career, coming close to 162 three times in a decade. Did I mention he is getting paid a huge sum of money? His defense is already on the decline and it wasnt that impressive even before then while the two SS's who were dealt are that much better up the middle then Reyes. Can Reyes hit? Sure, he can also steal bases, not at the clip he used to, but still can. Thats it. He will be giving up runs with his defense while still producing runs with his offense. You get what you pay for.
Escobar will be a great trade chip, how can you not say he wont?
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Originally Posted by Gobias Industries
Come on man, just a little context, just a little.
I have no issues with your post regarding the Blue Jays players leaving or their status as a contender. However,
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Originally Posted by Martini
D'Arnaud is as brittle as they come and already a 23 year old prospect at a position where the wear and tear will catch up to him sooner then later. The Marlins were smart not to choose him if they had the chance. On last years BBA prospect list, Marisnick was the Jays number three prospect, with Nicolino five and DeScalfini moving up the charts fast. That is an unglodly haul for a 33 year old pitcher, and two injury prone players alone, not mentioning what else the Marlins also recieved and all the money they now freed up. And lets not forget that the Jays had one of the best farm systems in baseball before this trade and many of those same prospects would be ranked higher on other teams lists if they were there, so gutted is the right word when three top ten rated prospects are dealt for aging vets on bloated contracts.
- D'Arnaud does have injury problems, but I'm not exactly sure what the "already 23" thing implies considering most recent top-end catching prospects make their debuts at the 22-23 age range (ie Wieters/Posey). If you're implying that they should've taken Marisnick/Nicolino over him I'm going to have to significantly disagree with that
- Marisnick and Nicolino are certainly top prospects (on my own irrelevant list I have Marisnick at 3 and Nicolino at 5), but I am somewhat amazed at how much you are underselling what the Jays have got back here. Yes, Reyes and Johnson are injury prone, but its not like Reyes is likely going to play 80 games this year (125+ in every year but one since becoming a regular) or Johnson will miss half the season (25+ starts in three of the last four years).
- The money the Marlins freed up is completely inconsequential to the Jays side of the trade. Jeffrey Loria played the citizens of Miami like a fiddle but that's their problem
- Gutted is not the right word. Gutted implies that the farm system had a dramatic drop-off in talent and it will take significant work to rebuild it. The Jays may not have a top 5 system anymore, but its not like they traded away 4 of their top 7 prospects or something, which we've pretty much seen in other trades over the past couple of years.
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Originally Posted by Martini
I highly doubt it would have taken that much talent to aquire three question marks such as that, but the rumors persist that other teams were in play for those players and that AA just blew everybody away with his offer bidding against himself.
I hope that you will continue to share the inside information that you apparently have from around Major League baseball.
I know all about Loria and have stated in this thread he is trash. But, I also see that he tried to spend money and Florida as a whole didnt bother. He did what he had to do, thats it. You cant fault a guy for looking at his bottom line.
Reyes is also getting paid a ton of money and has never played a full season in his entire MLB career, coming close to 162 three times in a decade. Did I mention he is getting paid a huge sum of money? His defense is already on the decline and it wasnt that impressive even before then while the two SS's who were dealt are that much better up the middle then Reyes. Can Reyes hit? Sure, he can also steal bases, not at the clip he used to, but still can. Thats it. He will be giving up runs with his defense while still producing runs with his offense. You get what you pay for.
Escobar will be a great trade chip, how can you not say he wont?
That is all I have been providing.
I get that it's pretty pro-Jays, so I can understand the context.
But...
It is worth noting that:
- Reyes played 160 last year.
- Reyes was third in SB in the NL, so maybe not the same clip, but still as good as it gets.
- Despite his defence, he was still top-10 offensive WAR last year.
- Reyes is getting paid, but we just witnessed Torii Hunter get paid 13 mil a season. What could the Jays do to bring in top talent, without paying top dollar?
You have to ask Keith Law that one. I dont see JJ staying myself, but thats on account of some team will offer him huge money even tho I dont think personally an injury prone pitcher such as JJ is worth it.
In referencing the Dodgers trade, I was saying one huge trade doesnt make a pretender a sudden contender. The Jays, right now, are still in pretender mode. And maybe with a couple more moves they can solidify their team into actually belonging in the east instead of at the bottom of the division when every team in that division will be better by the time spring training starts. Right now, if the season started today, I would predict that the Jays come in last place in the east only because the other teams are still a bit better, and that includes a Red Sox team that self destructed last year. Thats a huge division with proven winners in the Yankees and Rays. Its a good start, at least for the Jays.
It sure does. Three top ten players suddenly gone changes the entire landscape of their minor league system.
There is no conspiracy. The Jays took a gamble. Thats it. It remains to be seen how it will work out.
I understand you're upset, but try and be realistic.
If JJ performs, he'll get paid here...Just like Halladay, just like Bautista. Rogers is a multi-billion dollar company that will spend its money wisely. If JJ has a good season, you can rest assured, the Jays can match any offer financially.
One of the big 3 from Lansing + A ball outfielder with upside and a SS who looks to have a big league glove but a minor league bat? Thats changing the entire landscape? No doubt, 3 were 3 good prospects, but thats the beauty of building up the farm... Most experts rated the Jays either 1st or 2nd in MLB farm rankings.. AA finally parlayed some of those assets into big league help.
The only risk I see is Jose Reyes' injury history. JJ is playing for a contract, so is Buck. Boni is arbitration eligible and you know what you get with Buehrle; workhorse who will pitch a solid 200 every year. I'll take that for 3 more years.
I know all about Loria and have stated in this thread he is trash. But, I also see that he tried to spend money and Florida as a whole didnt bother. He did what he had to do, thats it. You cant fault a guy for looking at his bottom line.
Reyes is also getting paid a ton of money and has never played a full season in his entire MLB career, coming close to 162 three times in a decade. Did I mention he is getting paid a huge sum of money? His defense is already on the decline and it wasnt that impressive even before then while the two SS's who were dealt are that much better up the middle then Reyes. Can Reyes hit? Sure, he can also steal bases, not at the clip he used to, but still can. Thats it. He will be giving up runs with his defense while still producing runs with his offense. You get what you pay for.
Escobar will be a great trade chip, how can you not say he wont?
That is all I have been providing.
I'm not sure where you get the idea that he's great defensively?
He's got a rocket arm, yeah, no question.. But he has very limited range, doesn't move very well, makes lots of bonehead mistakes... He's an incredibly streaky hitter who isn't even very good on a hot streak, and above all, he's a cancer.. ATL fans couldn't have been happier to get rid of him, and Jays fans feel the same..
Now you tell me, whose going to give up value for that? Yea, you could get soemthing for him, but a 'great trade chip'? Get real.
The only real worry I'd have if I'm a Jays fan is Buehrle in the AL East. I can't recall him having much success against the BoSox and Yanks (especially getting lit up by the latter). On an artificial surface on top of that is a bit scary.
Last edited by HawksRule7: 11-14-2012 at 01:50 PM.
just a small note to the fact that Alvarez was highlighted as having led the Jays in innings: That pretty much happened by default. He was the only pitcher on the roster for the whole year who didn't get hurt at some point (Morrow, Drabek, Hutchison) or spectacularly, epicly implode (Romero). That's why he got to lead the team in IP. He was the only one that they could and did trot out every 5th day to make his start. Even though he really, really, really should've probably been in the minors trying to add some diversity to his arsenal.
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At a certain point when you have a great farm system you have to use it to upgrade the ML team. We had 3 higly rated propsects in Nicolino,Sanchez, and Syndergaard. Realistically only 1 of the 3 pan out(if that) Nicolino without a doubt had the lowest ceiling of the 3 so I am very happy we keep the too with high ceilings. Marisnick was highly touted after an amazing 2011 but his bat was average in 2012, pre 2012 I take him over Gose but not anymore. Basically we dealt from our surplus area's, yes we may drop from a top 3 farm system to a top 10 but in the end the prospects are nothing guarenteed and we needed to do something and I am glad it was this.
Oh and if Alverez doesn't get a 3rd "swing and miss" pitch he will 100% be a bull pen arm in the future, you cant survive in the major leagues striking out 3 players a game if that.
There's some rumblings that with the acquisition of Buck and the progression of D'Arnaud, along with his upcoming payday, the Jays might now be looking to deal JPA. Anyone care to speculate on who would be interested and what he might be worth?
What I would do...
1) Dump/Trade/Whatever Lind
2) Move Edwin to 1B
3) Move JP to DH
4) Bring up D'Arnaud
1) Dump/Trade/Whatever Lind
2) Move Edwin to 1B
3) Move JP to DH
4) Bring up D'Arnaud
That's what I was thinking as well but I swear I've read before that Arencibia doesn't have the bat for DH... can anyone confirm? I don't know anything about sabremetrics or I'd check myself
