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2012 CBA Discussion III (Lockout Talk)

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Old
11-14-2012, 11:46 AM
  #926
Dogberry
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Originally Posted by RussellmaniaKW View Post
what does "NHL pasta y strong" mean?
"Y" is Spanish for "and", so I suppose it means that the NHL is both strong and made of noodles.

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11-14-2012, 11:59 AM
  #927
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You're all over the place here, sorry, it's hard to follow. He's made the owners money, but you acknowledge less then half of those owners made money last year? You think his job description is all talk and bluster, and that being responsible for the league on a whole is really no biggie? Unless you think someone else is responsible and he's just the face of the league (couldn't they have picked a face that doesn't look like Despereuax)?

I'll say this. The league will immediately survive without Gary Bettman. Another commissioner would be hired, life would go on. But the league will also survive without a Sid Crosby, Alex Ovechkin, Evgeni Malkin, Tyler Myers, Shae Weber, etc etc etc... New players will come in and take their place and life will go on. The only things the league can't survive without are owners and fans. It needs both. Viable owners aren't exactly lining up at the door anymore. If they aren't going to make money they aren't going to buy, that's just common sense. Every team needs to make money for this thing to work and it can't happen with players salaries where they are right now and where they're headed regardless of how many hours Tyler Myers spends in the gym.

The owners aren't locking the players out because they only care about money. The owners are the only ones losing money at this point. They've locked out the players because too many teams are losing money, because too many can't afford payroll demands from their players already and because the players want to make even more money then they currently are.

Sorry, I know there is this whole line of thought out there that players sacrifice so much that they deserve, or should be entitled to the money the league earns. If that's true then why aren't soldiers fighting for their country entitled to an equal portion of the countries GNP? They sacrifice a hell of a lot more. That whole argument kinda falls on deaf ears here, people sacrifice for their work, that's just how it goes.
No i think a good amount of his bettmans job is talk and bluster. He's told what to do by the owners. Simple as that. Ok so if players sacrifice for their work, and as you said as do all of us. Then what about the owners? they're the ones crying poor mouth after signing huge deals for players, and winning the last cba to get what they wanted. The talent of the players is what brings the fans to the game. Once again.. no one wants to watch owners counting their money. So basically.. the players needs to sacrifice more than the owners.. who have more money than the players? The amount of people sticking up for the millionaires and billionaires crying poor mouth is ludicrous. I'm not saying that players aren't without faults. But to blame the players for the league wanting teams in areas where hockey can not prosper is also ludicrous. But might as well just say agree to disagree since this whole argument is a circle jerk of futility.

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Old
11-14-2012, 12:04 PM
  #928
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Originally Posted by Dogberry View Post
"Y" is Spanish for "and", so I suppose it means that the NHL is both strong and made of noodles.
The NHL: Al Dente.

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11-14-2012, 12:05 PM
  #929
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"Y" is Spanish for "and", so I suppose it means that the NHL is both strong and made of noodles.
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Originally Posted by EverettMike View Post
The NHL: Al Dente.

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Old
11-14-2012, 12:12 PM
  #930
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1. The first point was in response to the idea that an individual could always go somewhere else to get the money he demands if a team refuses to pay him. The problem is that the "somewhere else" is always another team. Players only get paid when owners decide to pay them.

2. When the NHLPA agreed to a salary cap and a max contract tied to the cap number (20%), they agreed to profit sharing among players. Why not place the same profit sharing equation on owners? As it is, three teams individually take home more than 20% of league profits- the Leafs take home 2/3 of all league profit alone! If 20% is a good cap number for players, why not 20% for owners and the health of the league?
in the nfl... there is definitely much better profit sharing. the owners there made the choice. there was individuals that owned the most profitable teams that made the choice. i guess ultimately they knew football was popular enough that a national tv contract would give them all enough money that it would be in their best interest to profit share in order to make it all work.

but it wouldnt have been possible without the owner of the teams in cities like new york and chicago and dallas and los angeles being willing to see this as the right move.

in baseball... the profit sharing seems to be tied to a luxery cap but in baseball the model doesnt work at all right? there are some teams spending way over 100 mill and some unable to spend even half that.

basketball is closer to hockey i guess in terms of the money involved. Basketball was on deaths door i guess back in the early 1980's and had pretty much busted the union at that point if i understand my history. most the teams were pretty much busted too i guess? i guess this is when they put in their plans to save the league and got lucky cause bird/johnson came along.

in order to convince the owners of any of these leagues that giving from the rich teams to the poor teams was at all a viable idea... it was a difficult process. It is not the first solution that the owners ever easily embrace. Unless the rich owners are the ones pushing for it... its not something in their nature to give into.

and it actually isnt something in the nature of any other big business to do either. Microsoft gave some money to Apple but it was only to avoid anti trust issues. A large franchisee business like a restraunt chain will not see owners of a successful outlet reach into their pockets to help owners of an unsuccessful outlet. Even when the same coperation owns an outlet in one successful location, they dont easily keep an unsuccessful second location going indefinitely. The normal practice is to shut down weak outlets in the chain that cant make it on their own.

So it just is never the normal thought process for anyone that is successful to be forced to give up their success to help someone else that isnt successful. In fact we call this idea communism and we say its an evil thing. Or we quote the bible about giving men fish and letting them eat for a day and how teaching them to fish lets them eat again and again.

our culture isnt set up to make revenue sharing between the owners... the goto fix here. and owners in toronto and newyork and philly answer to shareholders anyhow. so even if someone thinks its the best idea for these teams to give away all their profits... they really cant. They dont really have the authority to agree to it anyhow.

I mean if there was no other solutions... then sure they could probably do it... but there is a very obvious other solution.

Everyone knows the players are now averaging around 2.5 million per year in salary. No one believes that the players need to average 2.5 mill a year in salary to be able to feed their kids or have a roof over their heads. There is obviously room to cut the compensation level of the players back. This will fix the problems and still allow the players to be overpaid.

no one is suggesting for one second to underpay any players. this whole argument is boiling down to how much do the players get overpaid?

i mean.. if you disagree or anyone else here disagrees then id like to see any of you put it down for the record. Would an average salary of 2 million per player put them into the doghouse? Would the players be unable to live in mansions and retire on a 3 year career if they had a minimum salary over 800k per year?

I dont think anyone is suggesting to lower the minimum salary. In fact, I would say it should be raised. I support the idea that the players get enough money to be well compensated. I support raising the minimum salary and making the pension plan better for the players.

For me... i cant stand how the middle class of the players is using the sytem to be getting 3-4-5 mill a year these days. Most middle class players have 8-12 year careers and are making 30-50 mill for their careers easily. This is what is destroying the economic model of the NHL

and I dont see anyone begrudging guys like Crosby or Ovechkin or any other gate attraction from making their money. We see that the top 12 guys in the NHL arent getting more now then they were 8 years ago... and this is WRONG. Guys like Stamkis and the Sedin Twins and Chara deserve whatever they can get.

How many guys are in the NHL that you would pay to go see? 20? 40? 60? Whatever the number... these guys deserve whatever they can get.

I know the number isnt 100 for me... its not 200 for me... its not 300 for me. Theres a couple hundred guys making more then 3 mill per year that could easily be getting paid half their current salary and theyd still be very very rich men. take 200 of these players and cut their salary in half and the funding issue is solved and they will still be getting overpaid.

Thats the thing here. Boychuck and Peverly and Kelly to name 3 guys could all get their contracts cut in half and they would all still be getting over 1.5 mill a year. A person doesnt need more then 1.5 mill a year or 6 mill in their lifetime to be able to live very very very nicely.

None of these players are the reason i watch the Bruins play. I like having them around... but if they were gone and someone else was here that was a similar player then id be fine. I was a fan before these guys joined the team and ill be a fan when they are gone too. I wasnt blown away when we traded for any of them... I wont shed tears when any of them get dealt. I dont buy jerseys or posters of these guys.

Chara.. Lucic... Seguin... Bergeron... Tomas... whatever they can make... give it to them. And I think most fans feel as I do. We want our team to keep our heros. We want our heros to get paid what they deserve or even more if the business can afford it.

So.. none of us actually care if Toronto makes 80 mill this year or 180 or 8. We dont... but Toronto cares and its shareholders do. We dont care if Boston makes 1 mill or 10 mill or loses 10 mill... we dont care. None of us do but Jacobs does.

Revenue sharing between the owners isnt their choice how to fix this and its understandable. The players have room to give back and still be paid too much anyhow. Its pretty easy to see where this is going to end up because the owners are willing to lose the season to make it happen.

They wouldnt lose the season unless they felt very strongly about this. We can all wish it wasnt so... but it is. The players can wish they are allowed to keep their 57% but they wont be. Unless the players are able to make their own league... they have to play under the rules of the owners of this league. Its like walmart employees or any other employees. At some point the owners will analyze their business model and offer only so much in salaries to its most valued workers. And at some point the workers either agree to it or go to a different business.

there is no other hockey business in the world paying anything CLOSE to what the NHL is... at least not for non russian superstars anyhow. The players ultimately can only play 1 of the 30 NHL owners against the others when negotiating for their slice of the pie. But right now the majority of the 30 owners are willing to lose this season rather then do revenue sharing or continue under the 57% split.

again, if the players actually stood to 'suffer' it might be alot easier to feel sorry for them. But 50% of 3.3 billion is still 1.65 billion and split over 700 contracts is still well over 2 million average per player. There actually is no suffering to feel sorry for here.

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Old
11-14-2012, 12:25 PM
  #931
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Originally Posted by RussellmaniaKW View Post
what does "NHL pasta y strong" mean?
nhlpastaystrong = NHLPA Stay Strong

NHLPA: Players Association

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Old
11-14-2012, 12:26 PM
  #932
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Originally Posted by Alycat View Post
nhlpastaystrong = NHLPA Stay Strong
Buuuuzzzzzzz-kiiiilllllllll.

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Old
11-14-2012, 12:26 PM
  #933
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Originally Posted by BlackNgold 84 View Post
No i think a good amount of his bettmans job is talk and bluster. He's told what to do by the owners. Simple as that. Ok so if players sacrifice for their work, and as you said as do all of us. Then what about the owners? they're the ones crying poor mouth after signing huge deals for players, and winning the last cba to get what they wanted. The talent of the players is what brings the fans to the game. Once again.. no one wants to watch owners counting their money. So basically.. the players needs to sacrifice more than the owners.. who have more money than the players? The amount of people sticking up for the millionaires and billionaires crying poor mouth is ludicrous. I'm not saying that players aren't without faults. But to blame the players for the league wanting teams in areas where hockey can not prosper is also ludicrous. But might as well just say agree to disagree since this whole argument is a circle jerk of futility.
just to be fair how much blame bettman deserves... its a bit more then you suggest. He doesnt actually need all 30 owners to approve with how hes dealing with this lockout or any other problem. he is able to act with only a handful of them supporting him if thats how it breaks down. Bettman does actually lead the charge here and in my suspicion doesnt actually have the majority of the teams backing him up on this particular decesion.

but the majority of the teams might have 10-15 ideas of their own how to deal with this problem and none of them might have any more support then he does himself. In the end, these 30 owners have to hire a commissioner to repersent them as a group. No one single person they hire could ever do what they want on every single issue. No commissioner will ever be perfect for all 30 owners. But it doesnt do any good to fight the commissioner ever single time he does something you dont like.

A commissioner has to be judged on their body of work. And Bettman has done very well for the majority of owners as a whole over the years. I am very confident that even if they dont want a lockout this year, they wont fire him anyhow because he has done very well for them over the body of his work.

Bettman to me... doesnt strike me as a stupid man. If he felt his job was in jeopordy, I cant imagine he would risk it over this lockout. Bettman wants to fix the 'mistakes' he made in the last lockout and save hockey in the small markets. He wants the middle markets to actually become profitable on a regular basis. He wants the health of the game to get stronger so that expansion will be possible.

He has saved the toronto market for expansion and fought the relocation of teams to keep other markets open for expansion too. I think its easy to speculate that Bettman does want to see more expansion during his reign.

To say Bettman doesnt care about the game... is just wrong. He has pushed for expansion and national tv deals to spread the game around. He championed the small canadien markets when we needed a champion. His entire agenda has been about protecting the smaller/weaker teams to protect the fans in those markets and to spread the game.

He has helped the union keep alot of jobs.

Bettman sucks at PR... in fact the entire NHL office sucks at PR. It is almost like they want to wear the black hats. I think they should hire better PR people but that all said... and giving him his props... i still cant call him just a puppet for the owners.

The owners dont vote as 1 single entity. They vote as 30 individuals with 30 agendas. Bettman doesnt need a majority of support in order to act. And I would say imho he probably doesnt have a majority of support today about how the lockout is going. He has enough support though so this is how its going to go down. He does wear the blame though for this lockout more then the owners do imho.

That said... I think he is in the right. So I dont blame him. I think the game will be healthier if he wins this battle. So I am going to have to support him and hope he wins. He deserves the blame if people want to blame someone... but to me he deserves the credit cause I am not blaming him.

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Old
11-14-2012, 12:28 PM
  #934
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Definitely NHL Al Dente. That's what we're going with.

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11-14-2012, 12:28 PM
  #935
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Originally Posted by EverettMike View Post
Buuuuzzzzzzz-kiiiilllllllll.
Deal with it.

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11-14-2012, 12:29 PM
  #936
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The owners aren't locking the players out because they only care about money.
See Jacobs, Jeremy.

It's good to hear talks were going well until this guy entered the room.

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11-14-2012, 12:33 PM
  #937
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Originally Posted by BlackNgold 84 View Post
No i think a good amount of his bettmans job is talk and bluster. He's told what to do by the owners. Simple as that. Ok so if players sacrifice for their work, and as you said as do all of us. Then what about the owners? they're the ones crying poor mouth after signing huge deals for players, and winning the last cba to get what they wanted. The talent of the players is what brings the fans to the game. Once again.. no one wants to watch owners counting their money. So basically.. the players needs to sacrifice more than the owners.. who have more money than the players? The amount of people sticking up for the millionaires and billionaires crying poor mouth is ludicrous. I'm not saying that players aren't without faults. But to blame the players for the league wanting teams in areas where hockey can not prosper is also ludicrous. But might as well just say agree to disagree since this whole argument is a circle jerk of futility.
The owners made concessions just as the players did during the last lockout that have led us to this point. The main one being a cap tied to league revenues. Had they of gotten what they really wanted, a hard cap, we likely wouldn't be having this discussion right now. We'd also likely have missed out on a lot more hockey then we actually did as the players would have taken much longer to concede then they did. Sadly though, players like Sid Crosby would have had to settle for 7million per year instead of 10mill per. Heinous, I know.

The owners aren't "crying poor mouth" (I've never actually heard that term before so I assume meaning whining about not making enough money?). 18 teams lost money last year and not just southern market teams. Teams like Pittsburgh, NY Islanders, Buffalo, Jersey, Washington are bleeding money and other teams such as our very own Boston Bruins were awfully close to losing money (in fact likely did after you figure in other financial factors). This isn't a Southern Market problem, this is an NHL problem.

Teams can't find owners willing to spend 150+ mill on a team just so they can have the right to bleed millions of dollars in cash a season. Player costs are the reason that's happening.

If you don't believe me, believe Forbes:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/mikeozan...ess-of-hockey/
Quote:
More business is boosting National Hockey League team values but climbing player costs are eroding the sport’s profitability.
And are NHL players not also Millionaires? Rich is rich and who's more of it has little bearing on what needs to happen during this lockout.

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11-14-2012, 02:32 PM
  #938
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Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
The owners made concessions just as the players did during the last lockout that have led us to this point. The main one being a cap tied to league revenues. Had they of gotten what they really wanted, a hard cap, we likely wouldn't be having this discussion right now. We'd also likely have missed out on a lot more hockey then we actually did as the players would have taken much longer to concede then they did. Sadly though, players like Sid Crosby would have had to settle for 7million per year instead of 10mill per. Heinous, I know.

The owners aren't "crying poor mouth" (I've never actually heard that term before so I assume meaning whining about not making enough money?). 18 teams lost money last year and not just southern market teams. Teams like Pittsburgh, NY Islanders, Buffalo, Jersey, Washington are bleeding money and other teams such as our very own Boston Bruins were awfully close to losing money (in fact likely did after you figure in other financial factors). This isn't a Southern Market problem, this is an NHL problem.

Teams can't find owners willing to spend 150+ mill on a team just so they can have the right to bleed millions of dollars in cash a season. Player costs are the reason that's happening.

If you don't believe me, believe Forbes:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/mikeozan...ess-of-hockey/


And are NHL players not also Millionaires? Rich is rich and who's more of it has little bearing on what needs to happen during this lockout.
I could go into a rant about forbes as well but i won't. I'm just gonna say agree to disagree. I much rather be arguing over claude's use of the 4th line or why doesn't seguin get more minutes on the power play.. i'm starting to get even more bored and sour with this whole thing. We're the ones losing out in the end.

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Old
11-14-2012, 04:39 PM
  #939
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Originally Posted by Alberta_OReilly_Fan View Post
snip...
dont get me wrong... i think players do deserve a very good living, but lets call it as it is. The owners have been operating under a very crappy system that has seen players salaries skyrocket way beyond reason. The only way the owners even struggle to survive is by taking taxpayer handouts. Without the 10s and 10s of millions of dollars taxpayers give the owners every year, theres at least 10 markets that wouldnt be able to still be supporting hockey at all.
AOF - it's great that you are passionate but you need to make a concise point or 2 in a post and then people will discuss things with you.

I will touch on a couple of your main issues here.

Stop with the taxpayer thing.

1. The owners are the ones that ask for money not the players.
2. The taxpayers get to vote on whether to give the money.
3. The teams bring in more revenue which helps out the taxpayers.
4. The owners are going to ask for money whether they are paying the players 90%, 57%, 50% or 10%.

This argument has nothing to do at all with the players making 57%.

Next competition seems to be a big issue for you. We have had 7 different Cup winners and 12 different finalists under the current CBA. So competition is not a problem in the current CBA.

If you have other major issues which I'm sure you do - bring them up 1 at a time in a clear, concise, quick post and I will show you why you are right or wrong.

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11-14-2012, 05:07 PM
  #940
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Have they even been talking to each other this week?

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11-14-2012, 05:51 PM
  #941
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Originally Posted by BlackNgold 84 View Post
I could go into a rant about forbes as well but i won't. I'm just gonna say agree to disagree. I much rather be arguing over claude's use of the 4th line or why doesn't seguin get more minutes on the power play.. i'm starting to get even more bored and sour with this whole thing. We're the ones losing out in the end.
On this we don't have to agree to disagree at all.

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11-14-2012, 05:56 PM
  #942
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Have they even been talking to each other this week?
I don't think so.

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11-14-2012, 06:04 PM
  #943
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On this we don't have to agree to disagree at all.
How about my annoying trade Krejci pleas???

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11-14-2012, 06:09 PM
  #944
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60 days of no NHL

and meanwhile in Switzerland...


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11-14-2012, 06:10 PM
  #945
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^^ Just strikes me as wrong on many levels ^^

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How about my annoying trade Krejci pleas???
We'll just have to agree to agree on that one .

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11-14-2012, 06:14 PM
  #946
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^^ Just strikes me as wrong on many levels ^^



We'll just have to agree to agree on that one .
Indeed

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11-14-2012, 06:18 PM
  #947
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Hitting 1k soon. New thread here: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1283219

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