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We'll Meet Again, Don't Know Where, Don't Know When (CBA/Lockout) XXVII

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Old
11-14-2012, 01:07 PM
  #826
CerebralGenesis
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Fehr hijacked the NHLPA? Bettman's fault for the lockout! Good stuff.

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11-14-2012, 01:08 PM
  #827
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Butch 19 View Post
the jealousy claim again?...
i know, seriously.

Maybe, fans are pro-owner bc of the nonstop bullcrap fed to us from the PA? The fact that Don Fehr is a manipulative dbag who is leading the players off a cliff. Maybe its the fact that the players are so INCREDIBLY UNEDUCATED on the issues yet spew off nonsense(i.e., learn the difference between revenue and profit). The PA keeps asking for more, instead of trying to meet in the middle somewhere. The PA wants a higher % of (sport)RR than any other professional sports league in the US.

Yup...its jealousy.

These players need to remember one huge thing. This longer this lockout, the more damage done to an already fragile league. Cant really expect to get paid ANYTHING when the league folds because they alienated fans and sponsors, can they?

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11-14-2012, 01:10 PM
  #828
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From Lebrun's column yesterday.

Quote:
http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/i...-where-were-we If Iím the NHL, to try to get a deal done, I step down on wanting to move UFA eligibility to eight years' service or 28 years old (from the current seven/27), I step down on wanting to change the entry-level system or salary arbitration, and I give up on trying to limit terms on contracts to five years. The key areas I stick to my guns on if Iím the league: the 5 percent rule introduced in the Oct. 16 proposal, in which salaries from year to year canít go up or down more than 5 percent (this rule essentially makes the five-year term limit needless because it foils any attempt at front-loaded/back-diving deals); the Wade Redden/stashing-players-in-the-AHL rule; the Roberto Luongo back-diving rule (even if a team trades a player, if he retires before end of his deal, the original team that signed him to that contract gets nailed with his cap hit even in retirement). To me, those are the three rules that matter the most to the league because they deal with cap circumvention and, frankly, Iím not sure why the players would even care much about any of those three.

I think those are the three issues Fehr is fighting.

Quote:
Renaud Lavoie ‏@RenLavoieRDS
Bill Daly:"PA give us 17 issues on players contract last week. We have a deal, or made progress on 14 of them."

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11-14-2012, 01:12 PM
  #829
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It's scary that there are posters that wish the league and the PA were more like MLB\MLBPA.

Do you want to know why there's been no games lost in the MLB since 94? Because the PA is more akin to a mafia than a union. The owners know that they're powerless to fight it and the 2 or 3 "bigtime" owners that benefit from the system.

Yeah, the MLB system is great...as long as you're a Yankees or Red Sox fan, and steer far clear of the Kansas City Royals(and topically, the Miami Marlins)

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11-14-2012, 01:16 PM
  #830
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Originally Posted by CerebralGenesis View Post
Fehr hijacked the NHLPA? Bettman's fault for the lockout! Good stuff.
I'm 100% convinced if Bettman wasn't the commissioner, there would be no need for Fehr and no lockout.

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11-14-2012, 01:16 PM
  #831
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I became very anti-PA after I started reading all these tweets from players whining about wanting to play right after they tweet about their cool Ferrari's that make car alarms go off in a parking lot. The constant poor player tweets, and wanting to play while talking about things that only rich people can afford to do completely shut me off of being pro-PA. Also because of the fact that the PA refused to negotiate during the 2011-2012 season because they were playing hockey. If they couldn't do it before because they were playing, they can't do it now while they are playing. It's that simple.

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11-14-2012, 01:17 PM
  #832
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MOD

It's not that the owners are such great and noble guys that causes so many folks to criticize the PA... it's just that many of us can realize the simple fact that the league holds all the leverage. They're not going to lose. Right and wrong has nothing to do with it. This is a business negotiation... all of the emotions, the "us vs. them" good guys and bad guys mentality is useless and doesn't come in to play. In a negotiaton, both sides apply the leverage they have to ensure the deal most favorable to their position.

The league has almost all the leverage. They will end up with a deal more favorable to their positoin than to the PA's position. Not because they're good guys. Not because fans on HF like them better.... It's because they have the leverage, no more no less, and who you emotionally like more has zero impact. The "pro-owner" crowd really aren't... The frustration is that the players appear to have no grasp of the situation, and no game plan other than "destroy ourselves to spite the bad guys"... which isn't a plan put together by businesspeople thinking logically.


Last edited by Fugu: 11-14-2012 at 02:19 PM. Reason: let's not generalize
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Old
11-14-2012, 01:19 PM
  #833
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
I'm 100% convinced if Bettman wasn't the commissioner, there would be no need for Fehr and no lockout.
We also likely would be playing under the same bunk system that we were under prior to 04-05. Not to mention several now-healthy teams that were likely saved by those changes that may not have made it.

If you're placing blame on the owners side, it is probably better suited to the hawks-- Leipold and Jacobs, namely.

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11-14-2012, 01:22 PM
  #834
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No meeting today is a bad thing. Don't see a deal being done on Friday now.

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11-14-2012, 01:26 PM
  #835
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The thing that most don't get is that revenues does not equal profit. 2/3 of the league is in the red and the league as a whole is not profitable, yet the players want guaranteed raises. Ridiculous.

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11-14-2012, 01:26 PM
  #836
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yog S'loth View Post
MOD

It's not that the owners are such great and noble guys that causes so many folks to criticize the PA... it's just that many of us can realize the simple fact that the league holds all the leverage. They're not going to lose. Right and wrong has nothing to do with it. This is a business negotiation... all of the emotions, the "us vs. them" good guys and bad guys mentality is useless and doesn't come in to play. In a negotiaton, both sides apply the leverage they have to ensure the deal most favorable to their position.

The league has almost all the leverage. They will end up with a deal more favorable to their positoin than to the PA's position. Not because they're good guys. Not because fans on HF like them better.... It's because they have the leverage, no more no less, and who you emotionally like more has zero impact. The "pro-owner" crowd really aren't... The frustration is that the players appear to have no grasp of the situation, and no game plan other than "destroy ourselves to spite the bad guys"... which isn't a plan put together by businesspeople thinking logically.
Good post. Leverage is the important word here. The fact that players made over $1,500,000,000 last year while the owners made a net profit of $200,000,000 (with 18 owners losing money) + the fact that for most owners their team is not their primary form of revenue + the fact that owners have an entire lifetime to make money instead of 5-10 years for the vast majority of players guarantees a win for the owners.

Labour unions are valuable to society in that they prevent big business from taking advantage of labour. However the nhl is not taking advantage of nhl players: the nhl made only slightlly more than a 5% profit last year!

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Old
11-14-2012, 01:28 PM
  #837
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrimper View Post
No meeting today is a bad thing. Don't see a deal being done on Friday now.
At this point if a deal gets done before January I will be surprised...I give about a 50% chance that the entire season is lost.

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Old
11-14-2012, 01:29 PM
  #838
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They are back at square one just like the NBA last year.

Nba met for like 30 hours over 3 days and got nothing done.

Steve Fehr is right, when a deal gets done it ill be without any of the media knowing because it will be a huge breakthrough.

This season is canned though because the owners have already thrown in the towell. They are going to win no matter what in the summer of 2013. Donald is thinking the owners are gonna give up an arm and a leg in December but he is sadly mistaken.

This is a really sad situation and my heart goes out to the people that lost their arena jobs. I've never been more ashamed to call myself an NHL fan. It pains me to see the sport we all love go to waste over money.

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Old
11-14-2012, 01:29 PM
  #839
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CpatainCanuck View Post
Good post. Leverage is the important word here. The fact that players made over $1,500,000,000 last year while the owners made a net profit of $200,000,000 (with 18 owners losing money) + the fact that for most owners their team is not their primary form of revenue + the fact that owners have an entire lifetime to make money instead of 5-10 years for the vast majority of players guarantees a win for the owners.

Labour unions are valuable to society in that they prevent big business from taking advantage of labour. However the nhl is not taking advantage of nhl players: the nhl made only slightlly more than a 5% profit last year!
And players make 100% profit every year.

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Old
11-14-2012, 01:30 PM
  #840
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kuhcbaB notnA View Post
I am slowly starting to anticipate (not joyfully) the stories that will come out in a couple years (or sooner) about former NHL players who are scraping by to find lower level assistant coaching jobs, selling real estate or otherwise drifting into nothingness. The 3rd, 4th and many 2nd liners who don't have the megadeals or who haven't socked away what -should- be money they could sustain themselves for many years, will be hurting very soon.

Unknown to me - what is the NHL pension plan? Is it healthy and generous after just a few years of service? Or are these guys really, really screwed?
My understanding is players become eligible after 450 gms of service.
Typical pension plans become greater the longer you serve, or in this case play.

I'm sure there are all sorts of exceptions and rules etc... i.e. injury.. but i think 450 base.

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11-14-2012, 01:31 PM
  #841
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Originally Posted by stuffradio View Post
Also because of the fact that the PA refused to negotiate during the 2011-2012 season because they were playing hockey. If they couldn't do it before because they were playing, they can't do it now while they are playing. It's that simple.
That one makes me laugh too. If not negotiating during last season was because negotiations would've been a distraction to the play on the ice, how much more of a distraction would it be this season, after September 15th? Of all the crap that's been said during the last few months, that one just might take the cake.

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Old
11-14-2012, 01:31 PM
  #842
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And players make 100% profit every year.
They don't pay taxes? Their agents? Use their salary for expenses just like everyone?

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11-14-2012, 01:32 PM
  #843
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Originally Posted by Stuck in Socal View Post
They are back at square one just like the NBA last year.

Nba met for like 30 hours over 3 days and got nothing done.

Steve Fehr is right, when a deal gets done it ill be without any of the media knowing because it will be a huge breakthrough.

This season is canned though because the owners have already thrown in the towell. They are going to win no matter what in the summer of 2013. Donald is thinking the owners are gonna give up an arm and a leg in December but he is sadly mistaken.

This is a really sad situation and my heart goes out to the people that lost their arena jobs. I've never been more ashamed to call myself an NHL fan. It pains me to see the sport we all love go to waste over money.
I haven't given up yet because I don't think the owners have thrown in the towel. But I agree with the shameful part. This league, NHL and NHLPA included, are a disgrace to sports management.

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Old
11-14-2012, 01:35 PM
  #844
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Originally Posted by Ilrider View Post
They don't pay taxes? Their agents? Use their salary for expenses just like everyone?
umm do you not know what 100% profit means? it means (since this seems to trickle down to every single pro-pa person on this board, and in the hockey world) that every single one of the nhl players makes more then they spend.

even if the player only keeps 1 dollar of his 7 million contract, he turned a profit. just because he has expenses doesn't mean he didn't turn a profit.

this is why most people on this board are pro-owners, because they are smart enough to know the difference between revenues (money made), expenses (money paid), and profit (difference between money made and money spent).

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11-14-2012, 01:36 PM
  #845
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Originally Posted by DL44 View Post
My understanding is players become eligible after 450 gms of service.
Typical pension plans become greater the longer you serve, or in this case play.

I'm sure there are all sorts of exceptions and rules etc... i.e. injury.. but i think 450 base.
Interesting: So only the players that have made many millions of dollars in the league get a pension? The 'tweeners who manage only a couple of full seasons get nothing?

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11-14-2012, 01:39 PM
  #846
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This might be a can of worms or completely irrelevant..... but maybe all future contracts should be tied directly into the length of the current CBA that is in place.

This way all player contracts would expire alongside the CBA. If a new CBA has an 8 year term the 8 years would be max. length contract. If a players contract expires one year before the CBA expires then said player could only sign a one year deal... etc.

Not sure if that benefits either side of course.

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11-14-2012, 01:40 PM
  #847
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The thing that most don't get is that revenues does not equal profit. 2/3 of the league is in the red and the league as a whole is not profitable, yet the players want guaranteed raises. Ridiculous.
The league as a whole is definitely profitable, that does not seem in dispute.

Take out the big three and its not though, but they still count.

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11-14-2012, 01:40 PM
  #848
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Observation...

It seems to me from reading posts on here since the lockout started that most people who make any comments in favor of ownership are not condemning the NHLPA as the only party at fault - but rather suggesting that the responsibility lies with both parties - but that the owners have some valid arguments for the changes they want to make.

On the other hand, people who are behind the NHLPA for the most part are placing the blame solely on the owners.

Is it just me or has anyone else noticed that trend?


Last edited by jimmycrackcorn: 11-14-2012 at 01:48 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old
11-14-2012, 01:42 PM
  #849
Barrie22
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Originally Posted by ottawah View Post
The league as a whole is definitely profitable, that does not seem in dispute.

Take out the big three and its not though, but they still count.
true, but those big 3 don't have enough profit to keep up the hurting clubs.

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Old
11-14-2012, 01:43 PM
  #850
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmycrackcorn View Post
It seems to me from reading posts on here since the lockout started that most people who make any comments in favor of ownership and not condemning the NHLPA as the only party at fault - but rather suggesting that the responsibility lies with both parties - but that the owners have some valid arguments for the changes they want to make.

On the other hand, people who are behind the NHLPA for the most part are placing the blame solely on the owners.

Is it just me or has anyone else noticed that trend?
Most of the Recchi thread supports you assertion.

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