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We'll Meet Again, Don't Know Where, Don't Know When (CBA/Lockout) XXVII

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Old
11-14-2012, 12:44 PM
  #851
Fugu
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Originally Posted by ottawah View Post
The league as a whole is definitely profitable, that does not seem in dispute.

Take out the big three and its not though, but they still count.

You know this isn't true.

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11-14-2012, 12:46 PM
  #852
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Originally Posted by JMT21 View Post
This might be a can of worms or completely irrelevant..... but maybe all future contracts should be tied directly into the length of the current CBA that is in place.

This way all player contracts would expire alongside the CBA. If a new CBA has an 8 year term the 8 years would be max. length contract. If a players contract expires one year before the CBA expires then said player could only sign a one year deal... etc.

Not sure if that benefits either side of course.
Maybe I'm not thinking this through thoroughly... but wouldn't this mean that every NHL player becomes a free agent every time the CBA expires (excluding those contracts that are signed past the TBD duration of the new CBA)?

If so, I know I would rather try to work through the problems at hand (having players signed to contracts signed through a CBA expiration) than to have to re-sign every player that was on my team the previous year.

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11-14-2012, 12:46 PM
  #853
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Originally Posted by Yog S'loth View Post
It's not that the owners are such great and noble guys that causes so many folks to criticize the PA... it's just that many of us can realize the simple fact that the league holds all the leverage. They're not going to lose. Right and wrong has nothing to do with it. This is a business negotiation... all of the emotions, the "us vs. them" good guys and bad guys mentality is useless and doesn't come in to play. In a negotiaton, both sides apply the leverage they have to ensure the deal most favorable to their position.

The league has almost all the leverage. They will end up with a deal more favorable to their positoin than to the PA's position. Not because they're good guys. Not because fans on HF like them better.... It's because they have the leverage, no more no less, and who you emotionally like more has zero impact. The "pro-owner" crowd really aren't... The frustration is that the players appear to have no grasp of the situation, and no game plan other than "destroy ourselves to spite the bad guys"... which isn't a plan put together by businesspeople thinking logically.
This. As a simple matter of pragmatism, the players already rejected the high-water mark for money. This is more illogical and inexplicable to us than "rich jerks want to cut labor costs."

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11-14-2012, 12:49 PM
  #854
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Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
What did Gary do after the first lockout?

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/30/sp...0vLp5I8ZhYZE9Q

Gary needs just 8 owners to turn down a deal not supported by him. Screw the 15-20 teams which want to play.
... and the owners agreed to that and they still employ Gary. So apparently, they approve of this change (why are you complaining about it?), otherwise he wouldn't have a job!

Bettman is looking out for ALL 30 teams, right now especially those that are not profitable.

Fehr is mainly looking out for the upper-tier salaried players, those that already make $7 - $10m+. The average NLAPA member will see no relative change in salary - they'll only see a drastic reduction in salary if they don't play.

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11-14-2012, 12:51 PM
  #855
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Originally Posted by OurGocIsAnAwesomeGoc View Post
We also likely would be playing under the same bunk system that we were under prior to 04-05. Not to mention several now-healthy teams that were likely saved by those changes that may not have made it.

If you're placing blame on the owners side, it is probably better suited to the hawks-- Leipold and Jacobs, namely.
Bettman is one of the most reviled commissioners in sports history, with good reason. I can write an entire thesis on how his mistakes have both hurt and embarrassed this league. The Spano incident was absurd enough, then Del Biaggio still happens... Unreal.

No matter how much people want to spew their nonsense about the PA, we have had to endure three lockouts under Bettman with different PA leaders, owners and of course players. The players despise him and Fehr is the direct result of this mistrust and hatred. You can argue the stupidity of kicking out Kelly, but I am beyond certain that never happens if Bettman isn't the commissioner.

People hate Fehr, but can't grasp the reality that he is torturing us and the owners because of Bettman.

It is a real shame that this league couldn't have a great commissioner like Tagliabue who was able to deftly handle the minefields of the implementation of FA, a cap system, revenue sharing, expansion, etc and keep labor peace the entire time. Not one strike or lockout. Not one single missed game due to labor strife. And if people think the NHL problems were bad, do some research on how White took the league to court to win true FA, and how badly the NFLPA opposed a cap system.

Then we have Gary who handles these situations using one strategy...

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11-14-2012, 12:53 PM
  #856
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Originally Posted by Yog S'loth View Post
MOD
It's not that the owners are such great and noble guys that causes so many folks to criticize the PA... it's just that many of us can realize the simple fact that the league holds all the leverage. They're not going to lose. Right and wrong has nothing to do with it. This is a business negotiation... all of the emotions, the "us vs. them" good guys and bad guys mentality is useless and doesn't come in to play. In a negotiaton, both sides apply the leverage they have to ensure the deal most favorable to their position.

The league has almost all the leverage. They will end up with a deal more favorable to their positoin than to the PA's position. Not because they're good guys. Not because fans on HF like them better.... It's because they have the leverage, no more no less, and who you emotionally like more has zero impact. The "pro-owner" crowd really aren't... The frustration is that the players appear to have no grasp of the situation, and no game plan other than "destroy ourselves to spite the bad guys"... which isn't a plan put together by businesspeople thinking logically.
Great post.

It's very frustrating as a fan to watch this play out when we know that the players will keep losing the longer this goes, yet they're still holding out. I'm not rooting for either side to get more money, I'm rooting for this to be over and that won't happen without the PA caving to the NHL. It's inevitable, and watching them prolong this lockout to lose more is so aggravating.

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11-14-2012, 12:54 PM
  #857
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Originally Posted by Wretched Oil View Post
I've just started reading this, and am not sure it belongs here, but here's piece written for the Denver Law journal about Fehr and his role with the NHLPA.

Law Journal

It's interesting
It is interesting. The author seems to be quite sympathetic to Fehr and speculates that one of the reasons he may have taken the position with the NHLPA is that he was tired of being seen as a villain and a hawk and wanted to show that he could have amicable relations with the NHL.

I guess all the passive aggressive tactics, the delays and lengthy water breaks and so on put the kibosh on that theory or maybe just shown that old habits die hard..

Another reason that sounds closer to the mark is that he wanted the money. He never made more than a million a year working for the MLBPA but even his part time consulting work for the NHLPA gave him 1.5 mil and now with the directors job, they mention in the article that he is making 3 million a year but I am pretty sure that I read that he is getting more than that.

And he is setting up his brother to be his successor,just like royalty.How nice for the family.

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11-14-2012, 12:57 PM
  #858
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
You know this isn't true.
How so?

http://www.forbes.com/sites/kurtbade...snt-have-them/

Quote:
The Toronto Maple Leafs, New York Rangers and Montreal Canadiens had an operating profit (in the sense of earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation and amortization) of $171 million combined. The other 27 NHL teams lost a collective $44 million.

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11-14-2012, 01:02 PM
  #859
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Looks like we have to contract 27 teams so that New York, Montreal and Toronto can compete on an even playing field.

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11-14-2012, 01:06 PM
  #860
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Originally Posted by jimmycrackcorn View Post
It seems to me from reading posts on here since the lockout started that most people who make any comments in favor of ownership are not condemning the NHLPA as the only party at fault - but rather suggesting that the responsibility lies with both parties - but that the owners have some valid arguments for the changes they want to make.

On the other hand, people who are behind the NHLPA for the most part are placing the blame solely on the owners.

Is it just me or has anyone else noticed that trend?
It's not just you. It seems to be exactly that way. Most people here who seem pro-owner aren't pro owner because they think the owners are completely right or completely blameless.

If you say it's the owners fault and I say it's both sides fault, why would I bother debating why it's the owners fault when it seems we're both in agreeance that the owners have blame? Wouldn't it make sense that we argue the point we don't agree on? If we're arguing the same cause then it's not really a debate. I can say for myself that I am not pro-owner, but rather I'm just fed up of the spin coming from the players mouth. For me, it makes it quite easy to pick apart all of the hypocrisies and half truths in their words and I've said countless times that they should leave that to Fehr. But in any case, I don't feel that I should have a disclaimer added to each and every one of my posts to say that I'm not pro-owner and that I'm not in full agreeance with NHL ownership. I think my comments should be responded to based on the content of the post and not based on which side you THINK I'm on.

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11-14-2012, 01:12 PM
  #861
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
Bettman is one of the most reviled commissioners in sports history, with good reason. I can write an entire thesis on how his mistakes have both hurt and embarrassed this league. The Spano incident was absurd enough, then Del Biaggio still happens... Unreal.

No matter how much people want to spew their nonsense about the PA, we have had to endure three lockouts under Bettman with different PA leaders, owners and of course players. The players despise him and Fehr is the direct result of this mistrust and hatred. You can argue the stupidity of kicking out Kelly, but I am beyond certain that never happens if Bettman isn't the commissioner.

People hate Fehr, but can't grasp the reality that he is torturing us and the owners because of Bettman.

It is a real shame that this league couldn't have a great commissioner like Tagliabue who was able to deftly handle the minefields of the implementation of FA, a cap system, revenue sharing, expansion, etc and keep labor peace the entire time. Not one strike or lockout. Not one single missed game due to labor strife. And if people think the NHL problems were bad, do some research on how White took the league to court to win true FA, and how badly the NFLPA opposed a cap system.

Then we have Gary who handles these situations using one strategy...
Gary Bettman is the best thing that has ever happened to both the owners and players financially...although probably not for the game itself.

Quote:
Under Bettman, the NHL has seen rapid growth of league revenues, from $400 million when he was hired to over $3.0 billion in 201011
Realize the NBA and NFL already have deals worse for their players then the one Bettman is currently offering. If you're pointing to the "problem" it is not Bettman but the stubbornness and lack of business sense of the NHLPA.

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Old
11-14-2012, 01:12 PM
  #862
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Looks like we have to contract 27 teams so that New York, Montreal and Toronto can compete on an even playing field.
Hell of a league though. Super-duper powerhouse teams.

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11-14-2012, 01:13 PM
  #863
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Originally Posted by JMT21 View Post
This might be a can of worms or completely irrelevant..... but maybe all future contracts should be tied directly into the length of the current CBA that is in place.

This way all player contracts would expire alongside the CBA. If a new CBA has an 8 year term the 8 years would be max. length contract. If a players contract expires one year before the CBA expires then said player could only sign a one year deal... etc.

Not sure if that benefits either side of course.
So everyone would be a UFA at once? Wow, that's sure he interesting, to say the least....

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11-14-2012, 01:14 PM
  #864
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Looks like we have to contract 27 teams so that New York, Montreal and Toronto can compete on an even playing field.
Take Columbus and Phoenix out of those 27 and what is the combined loss ?

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11-14-2012, 01:16 PM
  #865
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Looks like we have to contract 27 teams so that New York, Montreal and Toronto can compete on an even playing field.
And even then the Leafs would probably still miss the playoffs

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11-14-2012, 01:16 PM
  #866
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Hell of a league though. Super-duper powerhouse teams.
Add the Flyers as well, Big Ed loses money by choice .

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11-14-2012, 01:17 PM
  #867
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Originally Posted by JMT21 View Post
This might be a can of worms or completely irrelevant..... but maybe all future contracts should be tied directly into the length of the current CBA that is in place.

This way all player contracts would expire alongside the CBA. If a new CBA has an 8 year term the 8 years would be max. length contract. If a players contract expires one year before the CBA expires then said player could only sign a one year deal... etc.

Not sure if that benefits either side of course.
This would undoubtedly throw the emphasis on drafting and scouting out the window, and no way would either side go for it. But could you imagine how fun the frenzy would be? Wild ups and down and chaos reigning as GM's had teams of people trying to call player agents on the same day. HF would need multiple servers to handle the load.

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11-14-2012, 01:19 PM
  #868
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
It is a real shame that this league couldn't have a great commissioner like Tagliabue who was able to deftly handle the minefields of the implementation of FA, a cap system, revenue sharing, expansion, etc and keep labor peace the entire time. Not one strike or lockout. Not one single missed game due to labor strife. And if people think the NHL problems were bad, do some research on how White took the league to court to win true FA, and how badly the NFLPA opposed a cap system.

Then we have Gary who handles these situations using one strategy...
This is spot on. Bettman's inability to conceive of any strategy for ensuring the economic health of the sport other than to stop it from being played every time a labor contract expires should per se disqualify him from running that sport.

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11-14-2012, 01:20 PM
  #869
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Fugu won't accept those numbers. I understand why, even if I do not agree with him as in my mind its the best numbers we have.

But there is no evidence to the contrary (supporting his position), so we can agree to disagree.

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11-14-2012, 01:21 PM
  #870
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Wow...

So reading that law article.

Fehr basically came in, refused the Executive Directors role, changed the NHLPAs constitution to give the Executive Director more power over the Executive Board then accepted the role of Executive Director.

The players honestly can't see a problem with this?

You let the man take COMPLETE control over their Union.
Yeah, smooth move by the players led by the likes of Lindros.

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11-14-2012, 01:22 PM
  #871
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It is interesting. The author seems to be quite sympathetic to Fehr and speculates that one of the reasons he may have taken the position with the NHLPA is that he was tired of being seen as a villain and a hawk and wanted to show that he could have amicable relations with the NHL.

I guess all the passive aggressive tactics, the delays and lengthy water breaks and so on put the kibosh on that theory or maybe just shown that old habits die hard..

Another reason that sounds closer to the mark is that he wanted the money. He never made more than a million a year working for the MLBPA but even his part time consulting work for the NHLPA gave him 1.5 mil and now with the directors job, they mention in the article that he is making 3 million a year but I am pretty sure that I read that he is getting more than that.

And he is setting up his brother to be his successor,just like royalty.How nice for the family.
No doubt!

I'm now convinced that Fehr's end game is not only his professional legacy, but his financial one. Greed and pride rolled up into one!

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11-14-2012, 01:24 PM
  #872
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No I am 24 and I fully believe what I just said, being a pro-player is being uneducated IMO. If you don't agree, you can ignore.
Actually I don't agree- the average number of players in the NHL (by percent) with college degrees is pretty well equivalent to the national averages for both the USA and Canada, around 28%. Most players (around 90%) in the NHL who were born in the US have degrees; Canadian born players are less at about 20% while European players are essentially at 0%. This compares to the NBA at 21% and the NFL at 46%. Surprisingly, few players in MLB have college degrees; the percentage being 4%. So a pro NHL player is generally as well educated as the general populace in both the US and Canada (and likely as well educated or better educated than most posters on this board, myself included). This should not be surprising, given the opportunities their skills provide in getting an education.

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11-14-2012, 01:24 PM
  #873
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Originally Posted by Bennysflyers16 View Post
Take Columbus and Phoenix out of those 27 and what is the combined loss ?
OK. Loss of 6 million for the remaining 25 teams.

The top 3 teams and columbus and phoenix still make a profit of $133 million.

All the numbers are linked to the article.

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11-14-2012, 01:26 PM
  #874
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Actually I don't agree- the average number of players in the NHL (by percent) with college degrees is pretty well equivalent to the national averages for both the USA and Canada, around 28%. Most players (around 90%) in the NHL who were born in the US have degrees; Canadian born players are less at about 20% while European players are essentially at 0%. This compares to the NBA at 21% and the NFL at 46%. Surprisingly, few players in MLB have college degrees; the percentage being 4%. So a pro NHL player is generally as well educated as the general populace in both the US and Canada (and likely as well educated or better educated than most posters on this board, myself included). This should not be surprising, given the opportunities their skills provide in getting an education.
He didn't question the IQ of the players.

And where are all of these educated players? Crosby, Toews, and the other most outspoken players certainly do not have a degree. Those silent ones are the ones we need to speak up. Miller was quoted a few months ago and has been silenced since.

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11-14-2012, 01:26 PM
  #875
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If anyone cares, Cox is owning Walsh again on twitter about the Kelly report.

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