Political Discussion - "on-topic & unmoderated"Rated PG13, unmoderated but threads must stay on topic - that means you can flame each other all you want as long as it's legal
Am I the only one that doesn't care? As long as the US doesn't get involved, let them do whatever they want. I mean hell, Israel has said they could handle Iran without our help. The less we spend on helping other countrie's military campaigns the better IMO.
Israel's greatest hope for normalcy is to come to the recognition that co-existence with the Palestinians is the real path to peace and security. A unified Israel/Palesitne living "together and equally" -- as this requirement is non-negotiable in a real democracy -- becomes a beacon for regional stability and growth, and thus presents itself as a meaningful alternative to Saudi Arabia and other Persian Gulf states (Qatar, UAE, Kuwait), the true "racist scum" in the Middle East (see how they treat SE Asian and Indian laborers), who live shielded by the American military (on the taxpayer's dime, no less).
It's a crazy system that needs end if Israel is to not just survive, but prosper beyond its wildest dreams. But that is possible when everyone is equal before the law, regardless of religious affiliation. If not for American meddling, there is not doubt in my mind Israel would well down this path already.
1) Palestinians never had a country. The area was sovereign territory of the Ottomon Empire than a British territory after, then split between Israel, Egypt and Jordan.
2) Many arabs are themselves descended from "colonists" who have only beeen there for 100-150 years.
You can get wishy washy about it if you want, but the fact is the Israelis would not have this problem now if they actually did engage in outright expulsions of people like many other nations have in the past 100 years (Hindus out of Pakistan, Greece-Turkey, Germans out of Eastern Europe, Jews out of Mid-East, etc.).
Why does it matter if there never was a country. There have been Palestinian people for thousands of years, and the West bank and Gaza have been where they have lived for thousands of years. If Israel, (let's not kid ourselves, they have more power and international influence to make change happen) just let go of those territories, and Jerusalem was declared a neutral territory (similar to Antarctica) because it is not important to only Jewish people. Then that would tone down fighting a lot.
If nations should engage in ethnic cleansing, or as you put it expulsion, then maybe all the aboriginal people should kick us out of the Americas, Australia, and New Zealand. Not to mention "those other Arab countries" that you think Palestinians should move, should kick out all the Palestinians
Well, I guess they can keep fighting and losing if they want, just like they have been since the 1948 war. Until somebody who can actually beat Israel in a fight shows up, Israel isn't going away.
Seems like a lot easier for an Arab "Palestinian" to just go move his family to a country populated by other muslim arabs and build a new prosperous and peaceful life instead of dedicating his life to Jihad against Israel. millions of displaced people had to do this post-WW2 all over the world (Germans, Finns, Romanians, Ukrainians, Japanese, Chinese, Brits, etc.), including a million Jews who were kicked out of africa and mid-east, the only ones still fighting to reclaim what they lost (after the failures of their own aggressions) are these Arab Palestinians.
The other arab nations don't want them. That's as simple as that. They are too numerous and poor to be of any benefit to the already rather poor and underdevelopped arab countries.
The muslim countries like to blame Israel for their treatment of the Palestinians, but they are quite happy that the Palestinians are staying where they are.
Doesn't make it right.
Doesn't make the Israeli right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Burke the Legend
It's true that terrorism is misused, but "terrorist" has a pretty objective dictionary definition:
The Intelligence Community is guided by the definition of terrorism contained in Title 22 of the US Code, Section 2656f(d):
•The term "terrorism" means premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant targets by subnational groups or clandestine agents.
I'd say Hamas' & friends' rocket campaign fits that. Although you could actually argue that Hamas is a sovereign entity in which case it gets upgraded from "terrorism" to outright acts of war so a hard Israeli military response is even more justifief.
It'd be an interesting way of looking at things if Hamas actually had WAYS to attack actually combattant targets. They are holed up in a walled off section of the world, have minimal intelligence regarding the Israeli except the permanent settlements nearby.
Therefore, striking at these civilian settlements is litteraly the only way they have to fight back. Had they the means to fight and try to win properly, they would. But they clearly can't, and nobody fights to lose.
Arabs don't want to be ruled under Jews. The Arabs nations would prefer to subjugate their minorities.
If Israel never existed and the entire region was split between Jordan and Egypt their would be no Palestinian movement today.
The very existence of Israel is a blow to the Arab mindset.
The people of Gaza chose Hamas in a fair election (supposedly). Hamas does not recognize Israels right to exist and continually fires rockets into Israeli territory. If the Palestinians in Gaza want change they should look at themselves first and elect new leaders.
Last edited by PSUCapsFan: 11-14-2012 at 06:33 PM.
Could anyone explain to be why people are pro-Palestine? I don't have a side to this, but to me, it seems as though Israel is just retaliating against Palestinian attacks, yet there are so many people, and that number increases, who support palestine and hate Israel and if anyone has any links I could check out, that would be awesome.
Could anyone explain to be why people are pro-Palestine? I don't have a side to this, but to me, it seems as though Israel is just retaliating against Palestinian attacks, yet there are so many people, and that number increases, who support palestine and hate Israel and if anyone has any links I could check out, that would be awesome.
I don't hate Israel, and consider my self neutral. However, Israel is a fully recognized nation, with good international relations with the developed world, and is the most developed country in the region. Israel has a lot more power to fix the problem
Last edited by saskriders: 11-14-2012 at 11:03 PM.
Could anyone explain to be why people are pro-Palestine? I don't have a side to this, but to me, it seems as though Israel is just retaliating against Palestinian attacks, yet there are so many people, and that number increases, who support palestine and hate Israel and if anyone has any links I could check out, that would be awesome.
It is a chicken and egg argument.
But at the bottom line, which group is getting systematically subordinated, impoverished and abused? I think it's pretty clear to see when looking at it from that perspective.
US, Canada, and Britain have all given their support of Israel for their operation.
Are you actually seeing this somewhere or are you assuming this to be the case?
Quote:
Originally Posted by InglewoodJack
Could anyone explain to be why people are pro-Palestine? I don't have a side to this, but to me, it seems as though Israel is just retaliating against Palestinian attacks, yet there are so many people, and that number increases, who support palestine and hate Israel and if anyone has any links I could check out, that would be awesome.
Undoubtedly there are those that hate Israel, but I think a lot of the reaction has to do with how the media tells the story in the west. Typically, it's rather one sided, portraying the Palestinians as "terrorists" and the Israelis as merely defending themselves. In reality, the entire situation is a complicated mess, and both sides have done wrong.
And like saskriders said, Israel is a fairly developed, relatively powerful nation. Some expect better.
Well, I guess they can keep fighting and losing if they want, just like they have been since the 1948 war. Until somebody who can actually beat Israel in a fight shows up, Israel isn't going away.
Seems like a lot easier for an Arab "Palestinian" to just go move his family to a country populated by other muslim arabs and build a new prosperous and peaceful life instead of dedicating his life to Jihad against Israel. millions of displaced people had to do this post-WW2 all over the world (Germans, Finns, Romanians, Ukrainians, Japanese, Chinese, Brits, etc.), including a million Jews who were kicked out of africa and mid-east, the only ones still fighting to reclaim what they lost (after the failures of their own aggressions) are these Arab Palestinians.
Unless Im mistaken, the other neighboring Arab states didnt want the Palestinian refugees. They knew better.
Why does it matter if there never was a country. There have been Palestinian people for thousands of years, and the West bank and Gaza have been where they have lived for thousands of years. If Israel, (let's not kid ourselves, they have more power and international influence to make change happen) just let go of those territories, and Jerusalem was declared a neutral territory (similar to Antarctica) because it is not important to only Jewish people. Then that would tone down fighting a lot.
If nations should engage in ethnic cleansing, or as you put it expulsion, then maybe all the aboriginal people should kick us out of the Americas, Australia, and New Zealand. Not to mention "those other Arab countries" that you think Palestinians should move, should kick out all the Palestinians
Ethnic cleansing? Laughable. Palestinians or should we say Muslims who live in Palestine since both may be correctly termed Palestinian never accepted peace with the state of Israel and in fact instigated revolt and attacks on the Jews since before 1947. Ethnic cleansing suggests wholesale slaughter of a race or population. Quite a convenient term used by the left.
But at the bottom line, which group is getting systematically subordinated, impoverished and abused? I think it's pretty clear to see when looking at it from that perspective.
Okay that's what I thought. So I guess people expect more out of a rich nation like Israel especially against a weaker nation like Palestine?
Ethnic cleansing? Laughable. Palestinians or should we say Muslims who live in Palestine since both may be correctly termed Palestinian never accepted peace with the state of Israel and in fact instigated revolt and attacks on the Jews since before 1947. Ethnic cleansing suggests wholesale slaughter of a race or population. Quite a convenient term used by the left.
Ethnic cleansing can also mean expulsion of a race or group of people, not just the slaughter of a people. One can make a strong case that the Palestinian expulsion of 1948 was ethnic cleansing
New Historian Benny Morris basically says there's no doubt that Israel was engaging in ethnic cleansing during and after the 1948 War and that they should have done a better job because the Palestinians that remained in Israel have been a thorn in its side and essentially acted as a Fifth Column.
I'm neutral as to who's more at fault, but I've found most North Americans are more pro-Israeli even though Israel is just as much at fault(potentially even more) as the Arabs. The Arabs can definitely be seen as being too stubborn in their refusal to accept the existence of the Israeli state, but Israel's aggressively expansionist policy since the 1948 War has been a huge catalyst for the ongoing conflict.
Ethnic cleansing can also mean expulsion of a race or group of people, not just the slaughter of a people. One can make a strong case that the Palestinian expulsion of 1948 was ethnic cleansing
New Historian Benny Morris basically says there's no doubt that Israel was engaging in ethnic cleansing during and after the 1948 War and that they should have done a better job because the Palestinians that remained in Israel have been a thorn in its side and essentially acted as a Fifth Column.
I'm neutral as to who's more at fault, but I've found most North Americans are more pro-Israeli even though Israel is just as much at fault(potentially even more) as the Arabs. The Arabs can definitely be seen as being too stubborn in their refusal to accept the existence of the Israeli state, but Israel's aggressively expansionist policy since the 1948 War has been a huge catalyst for the ongoing conflict.
Palestinian expulsion. Lets see. A portion left on their own accord due to the war (the war when the Arab league including Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Syria, SA and all other Arab nations declared war on Israel hours after declaring statehood). A portion were kicked out, this I do not disagree. How many, were kicked out? Im sure someone here can supply those figures. Maybe not. So what percentage was it. And due to the declaration of war and assault on Israel, would or could this really be classified as ethnic cleansing. If were talking semantics, cant justified imprisonment of certain ethnic populations, just because they do not want to abide by laws be classified as ethnic cleansing. Im just talking semantics and being facetious of course because that what 'new historians' do.
The Palestinians will probably never make any agreement with Israel and Israel will never give up Jerusalem. Fact is neither side will probably agree to terms as much as the kumbayahs here think they should or might.
Borders have changed throughout history and will continue to change. Thats a fact. Just depends who can hold said territories either by peaceful negotiations, militarily or otherwise.
Fire rockets into Israel. Israel fires back with a drone missile on a Hamas leader. Hamas responds, "HEY? What the HELL GUYS? We were just firing rockets at you but now this is war!"
There won't be peace in that **** hole of a region until one side or the other is annihilated. Get to work Israel, you've got a lot of killing to do if you want peace.
Well, I guess they can keep fighting and losing if they want, just like they have been since the 1948 war. Until somebody who can actually beat Israel in a fight shows up, Israel isn't going away.
Seems like a lot easier for an Arab "Palestinian" to just go move his family to a country populated by other muslim arabs and build a new prosperous and peaceful life instead of dedicating his life to Jihad against Israel. millions of displaced people had to do this post-WW2 all over the world (Germans, Finns, Romanians, Ukrainians, Japanese, Chinese, Brits, etc.), including a million Jews who were kicked out of africa and mid-east, the only ones still fighting to reclaim what they lost (after the failures of their own aggressions) are these Arab Palestinians.
Yeah that's a great excuse. Move all the Native Americans in the U.S. to Canada because they're so easily movable.
There won't be peace in that **** hole of a region until one side or the other is annihilated. Get to work Israel, you've got a lot of killing to do if you want peace.
