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The Official Arena Thread Part 6

View Poll Results: On what day will city council vote to finalize a new arena for Edmonton's downtown?
Between now and Christmas 2012 8 7.41%
Between New Year's Day and the end of February 2013 30 27.78%
Between March and July, 2013 16 14.81%
Before the October 2013 civic election 14 12.96%
Not until 2014 4 3.70%
Not until 2015 3 2.78%
Not until 2016 1 0.93%
Not until 2017 6 5.56%
Never 26 24.07%
Voters: 108. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
11-14-2012, 01:17 AM
  #251
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Is there any actual news of late?
Bob Stauffer said there could be a "wow" trade when the lockout is over.

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11-14-2012, 01:41 AM
  #252
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Bob Stauffer said there could be a "wow" trade when the lockout is over.
Yeah the city of Edmonton trades their rights to the Oilers for future considerations.

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11-14-2012, 12:41 PM
  #253
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On one hand you are complaining about wasteful spending on govt programs while at the same time you are advocating more/increased taxation.

Where in this discussion have I complained about wasteful spending?

Quote:
It has been my experience and as others have expressed here that no matter what levels of revenue the govt gets, it almost always isnt enough. That has been the pattern over my lifetime. Ive also seen govt depts throw away gross amounts of product with the thought being that they needed to spend all of their budget, otherwise they will get less the following year.

There is incredible waste in some areas of govt, yet other areas are incredibly and borderline criminally underfunded. Not sure what your experience has been with extended care centers but let me tell you they DO NOT receive adequate funding. Not even close. Yet when the people who made the decisions as per funding these areas need them, they are well looked after in private facilities, because, well, the public facilities are disgusting and inadequate.

This is starting to tangent towards politics, but if you were to encourage a new pst to help fund programs, it would likely be the thin edge of the wedge and would only grow over time. Sadly the fixed income earner in this province has great challenges in paying for deregulated utilities, on top of ever increasing living expenses. I dont think yet another tax is fair to them and not having one is what sets us apart from the other provinces and is a big attraction for living here.

Yeah. It's ideal. Come work here and not be taxed enough to pay for current services, then leave when you amass enough cash. It's a great way to run an economy, or not...

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11-14-2012, 12:51 PM
  #254
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The Oilers nightmare is the Florida Marlins reality. Owner strong arms to get a publicly funded arena and promises to field a great team. The arena is built, and the owner trades away all of his expensive stars.

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11-14-2012, 01:03 PM
  #255
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The Oilers nightmare is the Florida Marlins reality. Owner strong arms to get a publicly funded arena and promises to field a great team. The arena is built, and the owner trades away all of his expensive stars.
Loria is pretty much "Exhibit A" when it comes to crooked sports owners. I hope there's a special circle in hell for people like him and he can look forward to roasting for an eternity alongside Harold Ballard, Bill Wirtz, Art Modell...

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11-14-2012, 01:07 PM
  #256
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The Oilers nightmare is the Florida Marlins reality. Owner strong arms to get a publicly funded arena and promises to field a great team. The arena is built, and the owner trades away all of his expensive stars.
Can someone with a clue give me the Readers Digest version as to why this selloff was any worse than any other? I understand it was but why? I really dont know.

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11-14-2012, 01:34 PM
  #257
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The Oilers nightmare is the Florida Marlins reality. Owner strong arms to get a publicly funded arena and promises to field a great team. The arena is built, and the owner trades away all of his expensive stars.
I'm sorry, but you cannot compare the most evil man in sports (Loria) to Katz in any way, shape or form. This is the guy who singlehandedly destroyed the Montreal Expos, leaving the team with literally nothing when he took his money and ran for Miami after intentionally driving the Expos into the hole by pigeonholing their English TV and Radio contracts. When he left Montreal he took EVERYTHING with him. Including all the front office staff AND equipment (computers, fax machines, desks, EVERYTHING).

Now this insanity in Miami, where he literally forced his way into an arena. If you think Katz was trying to be a bully with council, you should read up on what went down in Miami.

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11-14-2012, 01:38 PM
  #258
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Can someone with a clue give me the Readers Digest version as to why this selloff was any worse than any other? I understand it was but why? I really dont know.
Basically what happened is Miami built a new stadium, that noone in the city wanted built, cost many City Councillors their jobs and they also said they were going to spend big money in order to bring in fans and win. Well, fast forward to last year when the stadium opens, late, WAY over budget and then the Marlins totally crap the bed. Then they turn around and trade their best players for spare parts. That trade is basically the equivalent of us trading Hall, Petry, Hemsky and PRV for Jeff Finger and a bunch of guys drafted in the 5th round.

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11-14-2012, 02:05 PM
  #259
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Where in this discussion have I complained about wasteful spending?

Yeah. It's ideal. Come work here and not be taxed enough to pay for current services, then leave when you amass enough cash. It's a great way to run an economy, or not...


Not sure if you are being willfully obtuse about the first part or not.

As far as the second part goes, Alberta's economy seems to be working ok. Probably the best in the country currently and over the course of my lifetime.

You are making an assumption that adding a pst would mean programs would be properly funded. Having lived in provinces that have a pst, I can assure you that isnt the case.

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11-14-2012, 02:32 PM
  #260
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post


Not sure if you are being willfully obtuse about the first part or not.

As far as the second part goes, Alberta's economy seems to be working ok. Probably the best in the country currently and over the course of my lifetime.

You are making an assumption that adding a pst would mean programs would be properly funded. Having lived in provinces that have a pst, I can assure you that isnt the case.
That's why you make it a dedicated sales tax. For example, L.A. put in a half-cent sales tax specifically to fund transit and infrastructure that's expected to bring in $40 billion over 30 years.

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11-14-2012, 02:36 PM
  #261
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Originally Posted by molsonmuscle360 View Post
I'm sorry, but you cannot compare the most evil man in sports (Loria) to Katz in any way, shape or form. This is the guy who singlehandedly destroyed the Montreal Expos, leaving the team with literally nothing when he took his money and ran for Miami after intentionally driving the Expos into the hole by pigeonholing their English TV and Radio contracts. When he left Montreal he took EVERYTHING with him. Including all the front office staff AND equipment (computers, fax machines, desks, EVERYTHING).

Now this insanity in Miami, where he literally forced his way into an arena. If you think Katz was trying to be a bully with council, you should read up on what went down in Miami.
I am waiting for this part of the story to be written. Hoping you are right.

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11-14-2012, 02:42 PM
  #262
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That's why you make it a dedicated sales tax. For example, L.A. put in a half-cent sales tax specifically to fund transit and infrastructure that's expected to bring in $40 billion over 30 years.
So we are going to make a dedicated tax to pay for the operating expenses of a new arena? Or to pay for the construction of a new arena?

That should go over well.

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11-14-2012, 02:49 PM
  #263
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Originally Posted by molsonmuscle360 View Post
I'm sorry, but you cannot compare the most evil man in sports (Loria) to Katz in any way, shape or form. This is the guy who singlehandedly destroyed the Montreal Expos, leaving the team with literally nothing when he took his money and ran for Miami after intentionally driving the Expos into the hole by pigeonholing their English TV and Radio contracts. When he left Montreal he took EVERYTHING with him. Including all the front office staff AND equipment (computers, fax machines, desks, EVERYTHING).

Now this insanity in Miami, where he literally forced his way into an arena. If you think Katz was trying to be a bully with council, you should read up on what went down in Miami.
Wow...I just did and I can not believe how eerily similar this stuff sounds. Granted it is Wikpedia, but you read the part about Public Funding, and Backlash, and it scares me how this sounds exactly like what Katz is doing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marlins_Park

A few quotes:

The threat of leaving - "On February 21, 2008, then MLB president and COO Bob DuPuy gave the commissioners this ultimatum during a hearing on public funding:
"I just want you to know that if you decide not to make a decision tonight, that will be the death knell for baseball in Miami. We are out of time."
City and County Commissioners appeared to take the threat seriously and within hours voted to approve funding for a new ballpark for the Marlins, in the form of a Baseball Stadium Agreement. "

Rising costs - "In the now finalized deal—supported by Miami Mayor Manny Diaz, Miami-Dade County Mayor Carlos Alvarez, and Burgess—the total building cost of the stadium complex rose by a few million to $634 million. More than 80 percent of that would be paid for using public money. Analysts of the bonds sale soon publicized that—with interest compounding over 40 years—the total cost to the county to repay them would rise to $2.4 billion. "

Political donations - "The 2009 election for the next mayor of Miami became a race between two candidates on opposing sides of the controversial stadium vote. As the term-limited City of Miami Mayor Manny Diaz's time in office neared its end, the Marlins endorsed City Commissioner Joe Sanchez's run for the office. Executives from the Marlins and Major League Baseball held fundraisers and donated money to the campaign of Sanchez, a leading supporter of the stadium plan."

Questioning whether the owners are being honest about the financial position of the team - "During the 2009-10 offseason, the other MLB owners reprimanded the Marlins for purloining too much of the approximately $75 million in revenue sharing and Central Fund monies they receive annually. The news raised public suspicion that the Marlins' front office was being dishonest in their arguments to county and city commissioners that they were barely breaking even financially year after year."

"In August 2010, the Marlins' financial documents were leaked to Deadspin and published on the Internet which showed that the team had a healthy net operating profit of $37.8 million in 2008 alone"


Again, I hope I am wrong.

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11-14-2012, 02:56 PM
  #264
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So we are going to make a dedicated tax to pay for the operating expenses of a new arena? Or to pay for the construction of a new arena?

That should go over well.
I think a dedicated sales tax to pay for municipal infrastructure (something like the current AMIP, but with guaranteed funding) is a good idea. If the city wanted to use that to build the arena and associated infrastructure, that would be their prerogative. (This all is based on the city not subsidizing the Oilers).

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11-14-2012, 03:02 PM
  #265
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That trade is basically the equivalent of us trading Hall, Petry, Hemsky and PRV for Jeff Finger and a bunch of guys drafted in the 5th round.
Do you follow the Blue Jays? They actually gave up a very nice bundle of talent. Nicolino, Marisnick, Alvarez, and Hechavarria are all quality young players--much better than you make out in this post. They are more comparable to NHL first rounders than fifth rounders. Nicolino and Alvarez could easily form the middle of a MLB rotation for a decade. Escobar is an above average shortstop, Mathis a sturdy backup catcher, and even DeSclafani has value. The Jays certainly won the trade on a talent level but they didn't give away magic beans, they gave away serious MLB talent.

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11-14-2012, 03:15 PM
  #266
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Wow...I just did and I can not believe how eerily similar this stuff sounds. Granted it is Wikpedia, but you read the part about Public Funding, and Backlash, and it scares me how this sounds exactly like what Katz is doing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marlins_Park

Again, I hope I am wrong.
Well, the fans will show up in Edmonton for a season or two if we start dumping players, due to the Stockholm Syndrome the city has. Having said that, if you assumed the worst about Katz the entire time he's owned the team, you end up right where we are.

I don't know exactly why optimism is warranted here...because he's a good hometown boy, I guess?

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11-14-2012, 03:31 PM
  #267
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Wow...I just did and I can not believe how eerily similar this stuff sounds. Granted it is Wikpedia, but you read the part about Public Funding, and Backlash, and it scares me how this sounds exactly like what Katz is doing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marlins_Park

A few quotes:

The threat of leaving - "On February 21, 2008, then MLB president and COO Bob DuPuy gave the commissioners this ultimatum during a hearing on public funding:
"I just want you to know that if you decide not to make a decision tonight, that will be the death knell for baseball in Miami. We are out of time."
City and County Commissioners appeared to take the threat seriously and within hours voted to approve funding for a new ballpark for the Marlins, in the form of a Baseball Stadium Agreement. "

Rising costs - "In the now finalized deal—supported by Miami Mayor Manny Diaz, Miami-Dade County Mayor Carlos Alvarez, and Burgess—the total building cost of the stadium complex rose by a few million to $634 million. More than 80 percent of that would be paid for using public money. Analysts of the bonds sale soon publicized that—with interest compounding over 40 years—the total cost to the county to repay them would rise to $2.4 billion. "

Political donations - "The 2009 election for the next mayor of Miami became a race between two candidates on opposing sides of the controversial stadium vote. As the term-limited City of Miami Mayor Manny Diaz's time in office neared its end, the Marlins endorsed City Commissioner Joe Sanchez's run for the office. Executives from the Marlins and Major League Baseball held fundraisers and donated money to the campaign of Sanchez, a leading supporter of the stadium plan."

Questioning whether the owners are being honest about the financial position of the team - "During the 2009-10 offseason, the other MLB owners reprimanded the Marlins for purloining too much of the approximately $75 million in revenue sharing and Central Fund monies they receive annually. The news raised public suspicion that the Marlins' front office was being dishonest in their arguments to county and city commissioners that they were barely breaking even financially year after year."

"In August 2010, the Marlins' financial documents were leaked to Deadspin and published on the Internet which showed that the team had a healthy net operating profit of $37.8 million in 2008 alone"


Again, I hope I am wrong.
The thing with him compared to Katz is this is completely his M.O. as far as running a sports team. You need to read the entire body of Loria's work to understand just how horrible a person that man really is.

Now I'm not entirely optimistic about the arena situation here, but that has to do with both sides. Not to mention the difference between the support of the fans between the Marlins and Oilers is massive. The Marlins are in the worst sports city in North America while the Oilers sit in one of the best hockey markets in North America. Edmonton fans have shown the support necessary to deserve a new arena...Miami fans really hadn't done anything of the sort.

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11-15-2012, 06:21 AM
  #268
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Not sure if you are being willfully obtuse about the first part or not.

As far as the second part goes, Alberta's economy seems to be working ok. Probably the best in the country currently and over the course of my lifetime.

You are making an assumption that adding a pst would mean programs would be properly funded. Having lived in provinces that have a pst, I can assure you that isnt the case.
Independent of the arena, I have always felt that a small pst harmonized with the gst to avoid taxing business inputs, would have been smart for Alberta.

What the provinces you speak about have not had is massive royalties from gas and oil. Had Alberta had a 3% sales tax from the last 30 years, and had they it is possbile that rather than a $16B dollar nestegg, they could have had $50B+. That would still leave it at about 1/12th the size of Norway's oil based nestegg.

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11-15-2012, 09:31 AM
  #269
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The Oilers nightmare is the Florida Marlins reality. Owner strong arms to get a publicly funded arena and promises to field a great team. The arena is built, and the owner trades away all of his expensive stars.
The Florida Marlins model won't work in the NHL unless Fehr wins the current CBA battle.

In MLB, there is no minimum team payroll and large revenue sharing. The MLB model encourages small market teams aggressively negotiate with local politicians for a favourable deal and then field a low payroll team. It almost doesn't matter if any fans show up for the game as the team is almost in the black before the opening night first pitch.

The NHL revenues are gate driven so teams will never show a profit unless they fill the stands. An interesting read is:

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index...afraid-to-ask/

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11-15-2012, 08:21 PM
  #270
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Independent of the arena, I have always felt that a small pst harmonized with the gst to avoid taxing business inputs, would have been smart for Alberta.

What the provinces you speak about have not had is massive royalties from gas and oil. Had Alberta had a 3% sales tax from the last 30 years, and had they it is possbile that rather than a $16B dollar nestegg, they could have had $50B+. That would still leave it at about 1/12th the size of Norway's oil based nestegg.
The province does not need me to save money in their bank account. And we are drastically different than a socialist country.


Last edited by Tedi: 11-15-2012 at 09:39 PM.
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11-15-2012, 10:29 PM
  #271
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It is not socialist to preserve capital.

Socialist would be more like blowing it all on services, kind of like the province has been doing.

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11-16-2012, 12:22 PM
  #272
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It is not socialist to preserve capital.

Socialist would be more like blowing it all on services, kind of like the province has been doing.
sigh.

What a shortsighted comment.

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And if you look at the developed world, the most successful countries are those with pretty high levels of state involvement in the economy.
Yeah its curious that. But meanwhile the bastion of capitalism, the USA imploded their entire economy and this is the model that Harper and his ideologues follow. Makes the headspin.

It seems in todays brand of capitalism that the military industrial complex go begging for the most dough. Why not, they make all the rules.

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11-16-2012, 01:26 PM
  #273
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My guess is the city asks Katz for the plans and builds a scaled down version for about $350 million.

I think there's something strange or unknown going on with the Katz group. I heard rumor/whisper his lead lawyer just quit.

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11-16-2012, 05:40 PM
  #274
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Source Article/Blog


Found this very interesting in regards to Katz and his arena, and the way the people of Edmonton view him as snake in the grass. There has been much discussion as to why Katz needs a new arena for long term sustainability of the Oilers, and due partly to much of the economics of the NHL changing at a rate that has a lot of teams including Edmonton lagging behind in the near future. Much of those teams have the benefit of being in a large market, while Edmonton has all but reached its peak in profitability from a hockey revenue only standpoint. While it's debatable how much more can be squeezed out of the Edmonton fans moving into the future, what's not is the very real economics of the Oilers and their new arena.

KevFu over on the business boards unwittingly explained exactly why a city-funded arena that reaps all extra revenue from events would leave Edmonton in a hurting position 5-10 years from now:


Quote:
Arena management from OUTSIDE events is not propping up the team. The lockout-year numbers indicate how much arena-based (but not necessarily HRR) revenue SSE gets off Panthers hockey compared to everything else. And the numbers for outside events are "inconsistent" or "unreliable" (for lack of a better word), because each outside event is a different negotiation on the terms for the arena.

The Panthers are an anchor tenant. Having the Panthers lends the venue credibility as a "big league venue" and you need a balance of events that establish your venue as a destination for marquee events -- like NHL hockey, or someone like Bruce Springstein playing there -- even though the marquee events probably don't make you the most money (you can bilk the up and coming acts with inexperienced management a lot easier, while someone like Bruce has a "take it or leave it" negotiation with the venue or else he'll just play somewhere else; and the Panthers have an enormous expense in player payroll).

Divesting the Panthers to a separate owner WOULD get rid of that expense and make SSE more profitable… However, you have the hurdles when you don't own the building and only operate it (Tampa for example has their operations contract tied to the ownership of the team. They cannot divest the hockey team and operate the arena).

Finding an owner willing to be a tenant that lets the arena management company syphon off revenues is hard to do. Especially because Forbes' numbers show how, when isolated, the hockey side isn't making a significant amount of money without those other revenue sources. (See: The Atlanta Thrashers, whom no one would buy the team to be a tenant in Philips Arena).

Essentially, what the article reveals (to me, anyway) is that the NHL's labor negotiations have to separate the hockey business from the entire enterprise; and when you do that, it's easy to jump to conclusions about the hockey FRANCHISE as being unprofitable in a lot of markets, when it's not necessarily the case for the Hockey-Based Businesses that own the teams, because the team is part of a larger entity.

The end result to me, as it applies to the Business of Hockey, is that isolating profit/loss for a hockey team is a worthless endeavor. You have to seek the big picture for the entire hockey-related operation; and that answers the question of why a bunch of billionaires who didn't get rich by being stupid, keep buying teams that "lose money."

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11-16-2012, 08:02 PM
  #275
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Source Article/Blog


Found this very interesting in regards to Katz and his arena, and the way the people of Edmonton view him as snake in the grass. There has been much discussion as to why Katz needs a new arena for long term sustainability of the Oilers, and due partly to much of the economics of the NHL changing at a rate that has a lot of teams including Edmonton lagging behind in the near future. Much of those teams have the benefit of being in a large market, while Edmonton has all but reached its peak in profitability from a hockey revenue only standpoint. While it's debatable how much more can be squeezed out of the Edmonton fans moving into the future, what's not is the very real economics of the Oilers and their new arena.

KevFu over on the business boards unwittingly explained exactly why a city-funded arena that reaps all extra revenue from events would leave Edmonton in a hurting position 5-10 years from now:
He is talking about the Florida Panthers, who generate A LOT of money outside of hockey in their arena while conversely, the Panthers usually have not, although last year attendance was up apparently (a winning team will do that) and there were some sellouts.

That really has **** all to do with the Edmonton market. Its like comparing oranges to potatoes.

Besides, the city was willing to let Katz have all the revenues, they just wanted him to be responsible for the operating expenses. They knew from past experience that Northlands had shown a profit with the same arrangement at Rexall, so it is no wonder they are a little confused when Katz comes to them looking for a hand out to help with the operational expenses.

It could be argued that the Edmonton market had reached critical mass twenty five or thirty years ago, yet here they still are, operating with a profit even, despite not playing a home playoff game in over six years.

The people of Edmonton want to embrace Katz and want to see the Oilers prosper. They want to see the team make money so we can keep our good players for a change.

All the negativity towards the people of Edmonton, city council, the mayor, is a bunch of ****ing ignorant nonsense. The only stumbling block appears to be Daryl Katz.

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