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We'll Meet Again, Don't Know Where, Don't Know When (CBA/Lockout) XXVII

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Old
11-14-2012, 02:09 PM
  #901
Max Power
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Originally Posted by pepty View Post
Evidently his predecessor, Millerr at the MLBPA did not think that the director of the PA should make too much money so he kept his compensation low and Fehr, though he made more than Miller, kept his lower than it might have been but had a payoff when he left.

The present MLBPA director is making a million as well, from what I can see the NFLPA director makes 1.8 million. the NBAPA director 3 million and Fehr whatever he makes, 3 million or more.
Whether it's true or not I heard on one radio show Fehr signed on for 6 million and Bettman makes 8. Heard it while I was driving though and weren't really listening to context

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11-14-2012, 02:16 PM
  #902
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Originally Posted by KingsFan7824 View Post
Hell of a league though. Super-duper powerhouse teams.
I agree. Every game would be an all star game.

But I wouldn't have a horse in the race.

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11-14-2012, 02:17 PM
  #903
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Originally Posted by Fire Sather View Post
the amount of anger i have in me daily because of this is not healthy


I laugh only because reading this post is like looking directly in the mirror. *sigh*

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Originally Posted by Spezza19 View Post
Thank you Alex Anthopolous for taking my mind off the lockout entirely for one night. Absolutely stoked and could care less about the CBA talks right now.
Yeah, thank you Alex! I needed that shot of Serotonin!

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11-14-2012, 02:17 PM
  #904
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Originally Posted by Max Power View Post
Whether it's true or not I heard on one radio show Fehr signed on for 6 million and Bettman makes 8. Heard it while I was driving though and weren't really listening to context
IIRC, I also heard that neither is getting paid while we are locked out.

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Old
11-14-2012, 02:18 PM
  #905
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
I can't see how Bettman is the best thing to happen to the players financially.
Because the average pay raise, as a percentage, since Bettman has become commish is more than the combined pay raises of baseball and football added together ......

Quote:


He made a generation of players lose an entire season's pay, then had the stones to force a 24% rollback for the next season (one of the main kick in the nuts to the PA that lead to Fehr being here).
He did not make them do anything. They gave up a years salary to take a stand against something they eventually agreed to. They could have negotiated that deal and not missed a year, but they wanted to spend a year crowing about how they would never play under a cap ......

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11-14-2012, 02:19 PM
  #906
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This is the last round of "posturing to the media". A deal will get dome after.

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11-14-2012, 02:20 PM
  #907
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Originally Posted by rynryn View Post
walsh is getting paid by the Fehr's right? No one can be that far up someone's butt without cash involved. Or is it the lure of a no-cap system keeping him rattling off idiocy?
Walsh is an agent for the players, so all he cares about is the maximum amount of money that his clients can earn.

It is also why all he says is the same rhetoric answers to everything that is asked of him.

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11-14-2012, 02:20 PM
  #908
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It's very very quiet.... I expected to hear something by today

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11-14-2012, 02:21 PM
  #909
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Originally Posted by Crows View Post
It's very very quiet.... I expected to hear something by today
No meetings today.

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11-14-2012, 02:22 PM
  #910
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Why people don't like the NHLPA. Hmm, maybe you should read up on them a little bit. It's a rouge union. Go read about how Paul Kelly was fired and how the reps were treated during that process. That would be a good start.

Every internal movement in the NHLPA office is out of a Shakespearean play. There is no transparency. There is no player president of the union. Why is that? If you don't know, then you really don't have the right to question anyone.

The rep situation is a disaster (although that's on the players too because they decide that themselves). They do not work for the majority of their clients, they work for themselves. Anyone that breaks this down to players vs. owners does not have enough knowledge of the situation to be questioning anyone's opinion.

The union led the players off a cliff during the last lockout, although that was a special situation and it was understandable. Now they are going down the same path again with all of these magical promises that they're going to make more money down the road, or in this case, somehow they're going to get 100% of their money while missing significant time. Meanwhile all those involved in this process are profiting nicely off of it.

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11-14-2012, 02:23 PM
  #911
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Originally Posted by czwalga View Post
I'm not sure how you can say this. Tagliabue only has labor peace because the NFL players get screwed in comparison by their CBA. If you swapped PT and bettman, same circumstances we'd most likely be in the same situation.
Sort of like how Vince Young got screwed when he got 45m for doing essentially nothing? Not to mention Ryan Leaf, JaMaracus Russell, etc. at least NHL players have to prove themselves before getting any real money.

Unlike NHL contracts, NFL contracts can be re-negotiated if a player outperforms his contract. And now many contracts signed in the NFL have guaranteed money for a majority of the contract value and the players get real signing bonuses upfront, without restrictions.

Taglliabue had a huge mess on his hands with the White lawsuit, but found a way to make the owners happy (cap) and the players (UFA). I don't want to even think about how badly Bettman would of ****ed that up.

There is no comparison between the legacy and competency of Bettman and Tagliabue and this league deserves much better than Bettman.

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11-14-2012, 02:24 PM
  #912
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
I can't see how Bettman is the best thing to happen to the players financially. He made a generation of players lose an entire season's pay, then had the stones to force a 24% rollback for the next season (one of the main kick in the nuts to the PA that lead to Fehr being here).

Now Bettman is using his tired old tactics to strong arm them into taking more cuts. Then people wonder why the players hate him and brought in an equally detestable man to fight him? As I said, hate Fehr all you want, but understand Bettman is THE reason he is heading up the PA.

We also apparently have half of the teams losing money in the system Bettman lost an entire season over, because he insisted it would ensure cost certainity. Now everyone... Players, owners, fans, etc have to deal with yet another lockout because of another error in Bettman's judgement.

I'm pretty sure having a commissioner like Tagliabue, who was a great visionary and understood the necessity for labor peace, that the NHL would of been better off both financially for the players and owners. Most of all, the league we all love wouldn't have become such a laughingstock and easy punch line.

Instead, we all sit back and worry if Bettman's NHL is stupid enough to lose yet another season... While we bicker about which side is right and which side is wrong... No one with any common sense and true understanding of the situation, can ever deny that all roads lead back to Bettman. Period.

You should get your facts straight. Bettman had nothing to do with the 24% rollback that was the PA's idea. The Owners thought that there was no way the players would take a rollback so they never offered one. How do I know this because I am a Bruins fans who had to live with the results of Mr. Jacobs lockout strategy. He did not sign any free agents because he believed after the deal there would be lots of cheap free agents available because of buyouts.

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Old
11-14-2012, 02:24 PM
  #913
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
Gratton got a 7m signing bonus from the Flyers under the old system. Sakic, Roy, etc where pulling down 10m a season.

Revenue doesn't equal profit... Please.

Didn't they just cancel the Winter classic and embarrass the league again?

Expansion has been an utter failure under Bettman. That is well known
Gratton got a $7 million signing bonus with, iirc, a $1-2-ish million base over about 3 or 4 years. For a 21 or 22 year old, 6'5 monster coming off a 30 goal, 65 point season in the dead puck era, his contract wasn't all that crazy at the time. Gratton looked like an emerging version of the Era's prototype center (Jason Arnott, Eric Lindros, Mats Sundin, etc). That he never did that well again is just the risk of paying for potential, which has and still will always be a gamble. Realistically, it was a gamble that was worthwhile for Clarke to take.

Horcoff's contract was senseless at the time and is worse now. It was modeled after the first 6 or 7 years of the Mike Richards contract, despite going into effect when Horcoff was the age Richards would have been when his compensation would start to fall with, presumably, his effectiveness. Horcoff's spiked around the time a reasonable person would have expected him to be washing up. This type of player move is the reason Edmonton finishes dead last every year.


The only entities for which expansion has been a failure are the Columbus Blue Jackets and Phoenix Coyotes. The PA got 200 new jobs and the owners got hundreds of millions in fees plus a national tv contract.

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Old
11-14-2012, 02:25 PM
  #914
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Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
Okay, understand that Fehr is the reason the players will miss out on an entire season's pay, and likely get a lower offer this summer.
And why is Fehr the head of the PA and not BG or PK? Simple answer.

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11-14-2012, 02:27 PM
  #915
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Originally Posted by HockeyCrazed101 View Post
Maybe you should brush up on your own economics. The owners are asking for a fixed percentage based against revenue. If the league revenues drop, what happens to the owners share? It also drops in real dollars (is a system where an increased share still runs you the risk of losing real dollars what you call a raise?). Having a larger piece of the pie doesn't mean that you are making more in real dollars if your revenue is decreasing.
Their revenue is not and will not be decreasing any time soon (current lock-out excluded).

Quote:
At 43%, the owners received 1.42B of the 3.3B of HRR. If total HRR drops from 3.3B to 2.8B (it would probably be even less than that considering a shortened season or possible fan backlash whenever the season restarts), the owners share at 50% becomes 1.4B. They lose 200M at 50% that they would have had at 43% had growth remained steady.

The players are asking for FIXED RAISES independent of revenue earned. THAT is a raise that guarantees MORE real dollars to the players.

I guess the real problem here is that you've been taking Fehr mathematics.
History has shown that revenue will increase by 5% (or more): This is unreasonable in some way? The real problem is that you're buying Bettman's "poor me" attitude.

As stated before: HRR does not include all revenue that it could (and should).

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Old
11-14-2012, 02:27 PM
  #916
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
And why is Fehr the head of the PA and not BG or PK? Simple answer.
Because the PA hardliners are not very bright men.

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Old
11-14-2012, 02:29 PM
  #917
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Originally Posted by Haj View Post
I agree. Every game would be an all star game.

But I wouldn't have a horse in the race.
3 teams would be too few though. Can't even have one game a week per team.

What the league really needs is like 6 teams, in the big markets. Toronto, Montreal certainly, obviously New York, and I'd say Boston, Detroit, Chicago too. Something like that could work if they gave it a shot.

Maybe throw in a team in Philly too. A nice 7 team league. Sort of compact. Everyone wants to watch those teams. No cap needed. Don't even need a draft really.

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Old
11-14-2012, 02:31 PM
  #918
Mr Jiggyfly
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Originally Posted by Orrthebest View Post
You should get your facts straight. Bettman had nothing to do with the 24% rollback that was the PA's idea. The Owners thought that there was no way the players would take a rollback so they never offered one. How do I know this because I am a Bruins fans who had to live with the results of Mr. Jacobs lockout strategy. He did not sign any free agents because he believed after the deal there would be lots of cheap free agents available because of buyouts.
I suggest you get your fact straight before preaching. The rollback was offered in Dec '04 to prevent a cap. Bettman put that in his back pocket and forced the players to accept it 7 months later along with the cap.

Then people wonder why the PA has zero trust in Bettman.

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11-14-2012, 02:33 PM
  #919
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Originally Posted by HarryHabs View Post
Because the PA hardliners are not very bright men.
It doesn't matter what your opinion of them is.

What matters is they detest Bettman and hired Fehr because of him.

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11-14-2012, 02:33 PM
  #920
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Originally Posted by HarryHabs View Post
Because the PA hardliners are not very bright men.
No, they're pretty damn shrewd.

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11-14-2012, 02:35 PM
  #921
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DyerMaker66 View Post
Their revenue is not and will not be decreasing any time soon (current lock-out excluded).


History has shown that revenue will increase by 5% (or more): This is unreasonable in some way? The real problem is that you're buying Bettman's "poor me" attitude.

As stated before: HRR does not include all revenue that it could (and should).
Which brings things back to the NHL revenues being subject to currency fluctuations.

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11-14-2012, 02:35 PM
  #922
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Originally Posted by billybudd View Post
Gratton got a $7 million signing bonus with, iirc, a $1-2-ish million base over about 3 or 4 years. For a 21 or 22 year old, 6'5 monster coming off a 30 goal, 65 point season in the dead puck era, his contract wasn't all that crazy at the time. Gratton looked like an emerging version of the Era's prototype center (Jason Arnott, Eric Lindros, Mats Sundin, etc). That he never did that well again is just the risk of paying for potential, which has and still will always be a gamble. Realistically, it was a gamble that was worthwhile for Clarke to take.

Horcoff's contract was senseless at the time and is worse now. It was modeled after the first 6 or 7 years of the Mike Richards contract, despite going into effect when Horcoff was the age Richards would have been when his compensation would start to fall with, presumably, his effectiveness. Horcoff's spiked around the time a reasonable person would have expected him to be washing up. This type of player move is the reason Edmonton finishes dead last every year.


The only entities for which expansion has been a failure are the Columbus Blue Jackets and Phoenix Coyotes. The PA got 200 new jobs and the owners got hundreds of millions in fees plus a national tv contract.
Hmmm... No players got grossly overpaid under the old system, right? Bobby Holik ring a bell?

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11-14-2012, 02:36 PM
  #923
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
Sort of like how Vince Young got screwed when he got 45m for doing essentially nothing? Not to mention Ryan Leaf, JaMaracus Russell, etc. at least NHL players have to prove themselves before getting any real money.

Unlike NHL contracts, NFL contracts can be re-negotiated if a player outperforms his contract. And now many contracts signed in the NFL have guaranteed money for a majority of the contract value and the players get real signing bonuses upfront, without restrictions.

Taglliabue had a huge mess on his hands with the White lawsuit, but found a way to make the owners happy (cap) and the players (UFA). I don't want to even think about how badly Bettman would of ****ed that up.

There is no comparison between the legacy and competency of Bettman and Tagliabue and this league deserves much better than Bettman.
Again your blaming Bettman for something the PA wants. The owners would happily give up guaranteed contracts.

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11-14-2012, 02:37 PM
  #924
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DyerMaker66 View Post
History has shown that revenue will increase by 5% (or more): This is unreasonable in some way? The real problem is that you're buying Bettman's "poor me" attitude.

As stated before: HRR does not include all revenue that it could (and should).
The bold part is untrue. All that history shows is what has happened. If you would to look a bit more closely at the last CBA and what caused the revenue growth you would find there are several factors that may not be repeatable (the increased value of the Canadian dollar, rising ticket prices to what looks to be close to what the market can bear, lucrative tv deals). Add a second work stoppage in less than a decade and there is every reason to expect fan backlash. It is far from certain the league will have big revenue growth during the next CBA. Which is the reason why the NHLPA only tables proposals that would completely protect the players from low revenue growth.

Besides, if the players were convinced in 5% revenue growth annually in the future, they would be all over the owners make whole proposal since it would be an good deal for them.

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11-14-2012, 02:38 PM
  #925
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Well at this point it seems that the owners' commisioner is not interested in having December hockey. Very unfortunate that fans will be robbed of watching their favourite Gods of the Ice during the Christmas season for the second time in less than a decade.

One has to think that a majority of the teams would have no problem in doing as Fehr says and coming to an agreement based on his proposals. Things are only going to get worse for the owners going forward.

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