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2012-13 Lockout Discussion Part VI: The "What Comes Before Square One?" Edition

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Old
11-14-2012, 02:22 PM
  #876
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
"Screw you fans" would honest, at least.
Maybe just replace the traditional solid blue line with $ signs across the ice.

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11-14-2012, 02:22 PM
  #877
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It's embarrassing...

Used to be asterisks only for wars... now it's drugs and labor disputes.

What a pathetic generation we are.

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11-14-2012, 02:23 PM
  #878
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Ever since I was young, I've heard that hockey has a "small, but loyal fanbase." And its very true.

To be honest, there are very few casual hockey fans. The percentage of die-hards vs. casual fans has to be split more in hockey than any other sport, despite having a lower cumulative fanbase.

Ill never stop watching hockey, ever. This lockout could go on for 5 years and I'd be right at my TV watching when the puck is dropped again. The league and the players union know what a loyal fanbase they have at their disposal and it has allowed them to treat us like crap for several years now.

Very few of us will stop following hockey. The key is to strangle off the revenue streams these guys have come to count on over the years - those include arena attendance, concessions, merchandise, etc. You can still be a die-hard and go without those things for a while -- its time these guys arguing over our money get taught a lesson.
I agree with everything you said and I like you will be back watching hockey the minute the puck is dropped. As far as choking off revenue streams I think you are more likely to see that in merchandise sales and not attendance (at least in the major cities). Even with the chance the economy could go back into a recession I would bet that no matter how many current fans refuse to pay to go to games the Rangers will be sold old every game and will have folks waiting for the tickets. If this was 7 years ago when they stunk then maybe you would have a case. But anyone who doesn't think the Rangers will be sold out indefinitely in my opinion is misinformed. 99% of hockey fans will not be complaining about this a month after the season begins (if that ever happens) and will be fully engaged.

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11-14-2012, 02:38 PM
  #879
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I agree with everything you said and I like you will be back watching hockey the minute the puck is dropped. As far as choking off revenue streams I think you are more likely to see that in merchandise sales and not attendance (at least in the major cities). Even with the chance the economy could go back into a recession I would bet that no matter how many current fans refuse to pay to go to games the Rangers will be sold old every game and will have folks waiting for the tickets. If this was 7 years ago when they stunk then maybe you would have a case. But anyone who doesn't think the Rangers will be sold out indefinitely in my opinion is misinformed. 99% of hockey fans will not be complaining about this a month after the season begins (if that ever happens) and will be fully engaged.
The things you have to take into account are, the different economic climate, the increase in viewership of other sports (soccer, NASCAR, etc) and the fact that this is the 2nd time in 8 years.

If they blow up the whole season i think the NHL will be in real trouble. Revenue could evaporate to 1/2 OR 1/3 of what it was.

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11-14-2012, 02:54 PM
  #880
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Having more #NHL people admit to me they're scared of what this lockout will do to the sport #NHL #itstime

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11-14-2012, 03:05 PM
  #881
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Originally Posted by Riche16 View Post
The things you have to take into account are, the different economic climate, the increase in viewership of other sports (soccer, NASCAR, etc) and the fact that this is the 2nd time in 8 years.

If they blow up the whole season i think the NHL will be in real trouble. Revenue could evaporate to 1/2 OR 1/3 of what it was.
I think that you are right. People are just discounting what loosing 2 out of years means. There is real rancor amongst the fans now, that is so much more than last time. And the thing to keep in mind, and I keep banging away at this, if the season blows up, then there is almost no way that the next season starts on time. There is nothing in it for the Fehr. The owners, otoh, have yet to face a season without a single season ticket sold.

Betting Nashville is loving that bonus that they paid Webber with no revenue to offset it.

Loosing 2 our of 8 years is uncharted territory. I think that to simply say that all games will be sold out and all fans will return is rather short sighted. And that does not even take into account of what happens if and when this drags into the 2013-2014 season.

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11-14-2012, 03:12 PM
  #882
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Originally Posted by Jabroni1994 View Post
Andy Strickland ‏@andystrickland
Having more #NHL people admit to me they're scared of what this lockout will do to the sport #NHL #itstime
They should be.

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11-14-2012, 03:29 PM
  #883
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It's sad because last year right around the end of the year, I noticed a few of my friends who didn't care much for hockey had begun to root for the Rangers. They even asked me if they could come to some games with me, and two of them bought NYR shirts.

They were about as casual of fans as you can get, but the fact of the matter is they were starting to get into it. I can tell you right now, whatever interest they had is gone. I will always come back because of my love for the sport, and especially the Rangers, but fans like those just wont continue to watch.. This lockout makes the NHL look like a joke

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11-14-2012, 03:45 PM
  #884
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The NHL IS a joke. There is no debating that. These "people" are ruthless. They shouldn't even consider themselves "NHL people." They don't care about the sport. I don't need to hear their bs about how they are scared of the potential ramifications this could do to the sport. If they cared those same "people" would speak out against Bettman, Daly, and the 8-10 hawkish owners. It is amazing how the minority outweighs the majority. Those owners handed out those contracts and signed them with their other hand having its fingers crossed behind their backs, knowing they were going to lock the players out while finding a way to not honor those contracts fully. Those contract should be honored no matter what. You shouldn't have a get out of jail free card just because you're an owner and you can't control yourself.

I don't blame Fehr and the players. I really don't. The players gave in last time, lost a whole season. Now they have to give in again, not have their contracts fully honored, and lose another whole season. The NHL is done if they lose another whole season. And to be quite honest, 40 something game season does no justice either. All those arenas are shut down right now not making any revenue, for the most part unless they have an NBA franchise playing there. But even then so they are still losing massive amounts of potential revenue. And it does not just affect this year's budgets or projections; it is the following years as well where less fans attend games and purchase merchandise. The ball is in the NHLPA's court imo. Players can find work overseas if it is completely necessary. I would not be surprised if another season is lost that this league is disbanded and a new one is formed.

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Old
11-14-2012, 03:55 PM
  #885
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Originally Posted by Jabroni1994 View Post
Andy Strickland ‏@andystrickland
Having more #NHL people admit to me they're scared of what this lockout will do to the sport #NHL #itstime
Agreed.

I have been wondering for some time now about the sustainability of the NHL into the future. Does the NHL even have a future? I'm really beginning to wonder about that.

The day I look up the NHL on Wikipedia and see the word "was" next to it would be a very sad day indeed.

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11-14-2012, 03:57 PM
  #886
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There is nothing to say that a sports league is guaranteed to survive forever. Even the most successful league in the world, the English Premier League, has only been in existence since 1992 when most of the big revenue teams left the league they were in before to form a new league and take advantage of possible TV revenue.

One year from now the NHL may not exist. By next September it is possible the multiple teams will be bankrupt, strapped for cash surviving teams may be forced to stop supporting their AHL teams, lay off scouts and coaches.

Right now this league is on the road to oblivion brought about by the shortsightedness of both sides but particularly the owners who brought this upon themselves. Perhaps at that point a new league will be born.

I have been a hockey junkie for over 50 years. Though I love other sports and teams, the Rangers are my passion. I though I would pass the time this fall and winter by watching the occasional KHL game and going to Danbury to watch the Federal League Danbury Whalers. I'm having difficulty even working up a desire to do that. I do check in on the boards every day and spend a few minutes while in the car listening to the Sirius/XM hockey channel but I am even losing the motivation to do that.

Our sport is in danger of dying. If this season is lost, professional hockey at the highest level may not survive. It's sad enough to reduce me to tears. When is this madness going to end? Doesn't Bettman and his band of narrow-minded fools understand what they are doing?

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11-14-2012, 04:10 PM
  #887
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Get this guy on it.

http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/i...k-at-cba-talks

Quote:
A Chicago Blackhawks fan from youth who has since converted to a supporter of his hometown Minnesota Wild -- a season-ticket holder since the team’s inception -- Boylan just received his refund for this weekend’s game against the Detroit Red Wings, among the several hundred matches canceled in the wake of the NHL lockout. He is going to watch the Wild’s farm team, the Houston Aeros, take on the Rockford IceHogs at the Xcel Energy Center on Sunday instead.

Before the lockout began, Boylan didn’t know how much time he devoted to watching the sport. Now, he’s wondering why he even has cable.

"I’d volunteer to do it for free," Boylan said in a telephone interview with ESPNNewYork.com. "I’d love to get this thing done."

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11-14-2012, 04:11 PM
  #888
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Talk about over reaction?

No. The league isn't going to disappear. A decline in revenues? The magnitude Depends on how long this lasts? Does anyone think a 50/50 split works for for the players with a lower revenue base? If the lockout lasts and revenues slip you might as well tear up all the contracts.

Is the NHL destroying the league? Takes two sides to tango.

What about the huge contracts that might not be paid in full? Didn't both parties agree to the last CBA?

What about the owners winning the last lockout? The players should Grow up, stop whining and look at the bottom line. With the adjustments... how much better are the players doing than 7 yrs ago? I'm not. If still not happy, hold a position and don't negotiate.

The bottom line... When the pain is great enough the lockout will end.


Last edited by ltrangerfan: 11-14-2012 at 04:16 PM.
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11-14-2012, 04:36 PM
  #889
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If it goes into next year I can see a real possibility that some teams might disappear--that they might be weaker teams financially speaking in non-traditional hockey settings would be just fine. We've been through the over expansion arguments lots of times. Bettman's defense of struggling teams in non hockey markets is more about his own legacy than about the viability of the league as a whole.

Anyway I'm a Ranger fan and when (if) they're back I'll be happy to watch them. I don't live in close proximity to NYC and usually don't attend more than 1 game per season. Situations are different. Those who tend to go to games more will have to make up their own minds. It shouldn't be a competition about who is the best fan. There's no way of qualifying that anyway.

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11-14-2012, 04:50 PM
  #890
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Originally Posted by eco's bones View Post
If it goes into next year I can see a real possibility that some teams might disappear--that they might be weaker teams financially speaking in non-traditional hockey settings would be just fine. We've been through the over expansion arguments lots of times. Bettman's defense of struggling teams in non hockey markets is more about his own legacy than about the viability of the league as a whole.

Anyway I'm a Ranger fan and when (if) they're back I'll be happy to watch them. I don't live in close proximity to NYC and usually don't attend more than 1 game per season. Situations are different. Those who tend to go to games more will have to make up their own minds. It shouldn't be a competition about who is the best fan. There's no way of qualifying that anyway.
Seems like these threads go in cycles. They go from optimism to pessimism to "fans who come back and go to games are suckers" v. "real fan" debates to other stupidity. Looks like we're back to the sucker v. real fan debate again.

As for your original point, I could definitely see weaker markets completely die out if this goes a season and beyond. I don't imagine they would contract them though, they'd probably move to markets like Seattle, QC, and Toronto since those are all markets that could support them and will be looking for teams soon. No way would the PA be happy with contraction.

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11-14-2012, 05:18 PM
  #891
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Originally Posted by ltrangerfan View Post
Talk about over reaction?

No. The league isn't going to disappear. A decline in revenues? The magnitude Depends on how long this lasts? Does anyone think a 50/50 split works for for the players with a lower revenue base? If the lockout lasts and revenues slip you might as well tear up all the contracts.

Is the NHL destroying the league? Takes two sides to tango.

What about the huge contracts that might not be paid in full? Didn't both parties agree to the last CBA?

What about the owners winning the last lockout? The players should Grow up, stop whining and look at the bottom line. With the adjustments... how much better are the players doing than 7 yrs ago? I'm not. If still not happy, hold a position and don't negotiate.

The bottom line... When the pain is great enough the lockout will end.
Where is there an overreaction? Where? It's simply reality. You can't have a lockout every 8 years. And you can't lose whole seasons over it. What kind of "league" is that? The answer you're looking for is, there isn't a "league." When you don't have games you are not a league. Yes this is a business but their is no business without the games and the players. You lose another whole season, and the owners that did not support this lockout or at least to the degree that others are, will collect themselves and start a new league. You want to know why? Because those owners lost millions when they didn't want to. The big ticket teams will form their own league and they will get people to show up because they are in "hockey towns."

Like allkurtz was saying above the EPL has only been around since 1992 and it one of, if not, the most popular leagues in the world. You don't think that could happen to hockey in the US? Based on what? You don't think sponsors and tv contracts would surface for a new league? I sure as hell know they would; because it's simple, they would actually make money off of a league that is up and running and not shutdown at a stalemate. At a stalemate because smaller market teams are not as profitable, other than Jeremy Jacobs who is a real jerk off. And those smaller market teams are poorly located and were expanded to by a commissioner who does not have a clue. And no one can fire him because of previous rules that have been put in place which protect him from getting taken off the throne. Bettman's answer for revenue problems is always to lockout the players. This time it is even worse because it was a cba, HE CREATED, that HE has deemed is not working. This is HIS fault. NOT the players. Don't go after the players for wanting their contracts guaranteed because these owners, who have no self control, want an out clause.

It is time for change. The sport is a laughing stock. Players are underpaid for their value as it is compared to other sports. Crosby makes around $8 million a year for an 82 game season. The highest paid players in baseball make around 25-30 million a year over a 162 game season. Cut the MLB number in half and you're at 12-15 million. Now of course hockey isn't as popular as baseball but you don't think guys like crosby shouldn't be making at least $10 million? I do, I really do believe that is fair value. But he doesn't get that playing professional hockey in the NHL. And he's probably not crying over it, but now his salary has to be reduced even further because the owners want more back? It is ridiculous. I don't blame the players. I can't. The single idea that the players can't have their contracts guaranteed is unfathomable. The fact that they have to give back more because the NHL out kicked it's coverage by expanding to warm climate areas that aren't hockey hotbeds is not the players fault. And you could say well the players are giving back for the good of the game to help make smaller market teams more profitable as well as help fellow players keep their jobs. Well those teams shouldn't exist. They shouldn't. And it's all grand that 200 more players have work (thats about 4 teams and their AHL teams) but it thins out the talent pool in the NHL. More 4th line players that shouldn't be in the NHL. Less talent depth on 3rd and 4th lines. I'd rather have had less teams and more talent to watch. More excitement. But because Bettman has dug himself this deep there is no going back now. He is going to protect his babies/pet projects. And unfortunately he has to because how could you shutdown those organizations now? You can't do that to the fans and players of those teams at this point.

You lose another season, this league won't be around anymore. And I hope Dolan is first on board to take the New York Rangers into a new league.

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11-14-2012, 05:28 PM
  #892
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Crosby makes around $8 million a year for an 82 game season. The highest paid players in baseball make around 25-30 million a year over a 162 game season. Cut the MLB number in half and you're at 12-15 million. Now of course hockey isn't as popular as baseball but you don't think guys like crosby shouldn't be making at least $10 million?
No. Comparing them to baseball players and then glossing over the fact that baseball brings in more money is silly.

And he actually makes $10.6 million for the first 9 years of his contract. But the three years after that he has to scrape by on $3 million.

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11-14-2012, 05:51 PM
  #893
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No. Comparing them to baseball players and then glossing over the fact that baseball brings in more money is silly.

And he actually makes $10.6 million for the first 9 years of his contract. But the three years after that he has to scrape by on $3 million.
Yeah baseball brings in more money because it is a more popular sport and has a 162 game season. Maybe hockey would be more popular if it didn't have a lockout every 7-8 years that cancels whole seasons. Hard to gain and keep interest with nothing to watch or support.

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11-14-2012, 05:56 PM
  #894
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How many games a sport plays in a season doesn't really show where they rank in salary (except the case with the NFL); their national TV contracts do.

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11-14-2012, 05:58 PM
  #895
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Yeah baseball brings in more money because it is a more popular sport and has a 162 game season.
Yeah. They bring in more money. The players are paid more. Seems like a perfectly reasonable arrangement to me.

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Maybe hockey would be more popular if it didn't have a lockout every 7-8 years that cancels whole seasons.
I'm certainly not arguing that hockey is well-run by its leadership, but that's happened once, ever.

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11-14-2012, 06:05 PM
  #896
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Yeah. They bring in more money. The players are paid more. Seems like a perfectly reasonable arrangement to me.


I'm certainly not arguing that hockey is well-run by its leadership, but that's happened once, ever.
I understand once, I was more implying that it was on that same road that it was on in 2004. I still think a lot of players are underpaid compared to other sports. You look at what Torii Hunter just got from the Tigers and it's crazy. 13 million for 2 years for a player who has been on the decline.

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11-14-2012, 06:13 PM
  #897
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I understand once, I was more implying that it was on that same road that it was on in 2004. I still think a lot of players are underpaid compared to other sports.
Based on what, though? What makes them inherently worth more despite not bringing in as much money?

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11-14-2012, 06:17 PM
  #898
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NHL took over 5 years to recover from 05. What makes them think they'll recover again or in that same time span? It's 2012. More things around now. The NHL will keep it's die hards for the most parts, but they can kiss the casuals out the window. Quite frankly, are there even many casual NHL fans? The great thing I love about hockey is most fans are die hards. Of course once playoffs come around or the team is top notch you get your bandwagoners, but we have so many die hards. It's not like the NBA where you have random people tuning in to watch LeBron or Kobe. That just doesn't happen in the NHL. People will move on. Does the NHL realize right now that no one actually gives a **** right now? Has ESPN or local TV stations even mentioned the lockout? Time to wake up Bettman and players. Your league is not the NFL so stop acting it is and get a ****ing deal done and salvage the season. This ****ing ridiculous.

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11-14-2012, 06:17 PM
  #899
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Yeah baseball brings in more money because it is a more popular sport and has a 162 game season. Maybe hockey would be more popular if it didn't have a lockout every 7-8 years that cancels whole seasons. Hard to gain and keep interest with nothing to watch or support.
Yea, and then hockey can play 162 games and play in stadiums with 20-30K more seats.

Has just as much to do with math as it does with popularity.

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11-14-2012, 06:18 PM
  #900
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NHL took over 5 years to recover from 05.
No, it didn't.

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