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ESPN's MacGregor on the lockout, the NHL and Bettman

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Old
11-14-2012, 03:04 PM
  #51
haveandare
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I'm so sick of these binary opinion pieces. They're idiotic regardless of what side they're on. It's fairly obvious that both sides are at fault. Bettman is a bully, yes, but then what is Fehr? You know, the guy who shows up late to meetings, who leaves the room for a glass of water and doesn't come back for a long time? He's no saint either. Both sides are childish. Neither is earnestly trying to get a deal done for the sake of the fans. Neither side has any reservations about dragging their feet or pulling petty BS moves to delay the starting of the the season.

There is also logic on both sides. The players feel like they should get something in return for losing 7% of HRR and that's reasonable. The owners feel like the players should swallow the % loss because they're still paid outrageously and after losing a larger % last negotiation, they still managed to double the average salary. That's reasonable as well. It's real easy for fans and players to sit back and blame the owners for signing big contracts when there's no hockey going on. When their team is playing and succeeding due to one of those contracts I doubt they'd be up on their high horse.

Further, this quote is beyond insane. I sincerely hope I'm reading or understanding it wrong:

"And in the whole, long history of disasters and capitalism, has there ever been a bigger disaster than the National Hockey League or its mortician, Gary Bettman? The decommissioner has managed in just 20 years to make the league invisible. An afterthought. An unfunny punch line to a joke no one recalls. By his own accounting, the league is poised on the brink of insolvency. Again. Still. A constant invalid."

First, is a guy who is dropping Naomi Klein in an article honestly asking if capitalism has produced bigger disasters than a few months of delay in the start of the NHL? Capitalism can be illustrated as the cause of the death of millions in some cases. The NHL lockout is practically meaningless when you consider disasters that occur in the real world. Maybe he should read the book that he references in his article so he can at least represent the main idea of it, in this case disaster capitalism, correctly. He has 0 credibility to be talking about those ideas based on the idiocy he's shown here.

Secondly, what about those record revenues that the pro-players people throw out all the time? Bettman is responsible for the league becoming invisible but he also oversaw it through the production of revenues so large that the players deserve to get more % of it than the most popular sports in America? The league has become invisible despite the start of the Winter Classic, a huge money maker?

Terrible, terrible article.

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11-14-2012, 03:10 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by ottawah View Post
Run some quick numbers on salary raises since Bettman came into the league, and compare that with the other major sports.

Football has tripled salaries.
Baseball has tripled salaries.
NBA has quadrupled salaries.
NHL is more than football and baseball combined (just over 6 times as much).

One could argue the only poorly run part of this league is that the player raises since Bettman came in have been far far too lavish .....

But but but Gary Bettman treats these players like animals


Last edited by Orrthebest: 11-14-2012 at 03:12 PM. Reason: did smiley wrong
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11-14-2012, 03:16 PM
  #53
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The owners hired Gary Bettman to make them as much money as possible. To me that's what he's all about - money. Just money, and things that can be traced to money. If it's not about money, it's irrelevant.

His legacy, to me, will be of a person who sacrificed the quality of product of a game I love in a quest for his and his employers wealth.


Last edited by middletoe: 11-14-2012 at 04:17 PM.
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11-14-2012, 03:18 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Orrthebest View Post
But but but Gary Bettman treats these players like animals

No, it was Devellano who claimed the players and everyone else employed by the owners/ranchers were allowed to feed at their troughs. He included himself, and I would extend that by his definition, Bettman would qualify as well.

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11-14-2012, 03:18 PM
  #55
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I really liked the descriptions of little Napoleon as the "decommissioner" and "mortician"- quite apt I thought (no insult intended to those who work in the undertaking business).

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11-14-2012, 08:45 PM
  #56
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LOL. that was the worst article in history. Maybe its the severe lack of reality and intelligence behind the words, but i get the feeling a NHL player might have written this.

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11-14-2012, 08:48 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by oilinblood View Post
LOL. that was the worst article in history. Maybe its the severe lack of reality and intelligence behind the words, but i get the feeling a NHL player might have written this.
Not so, the term "decommissioner" in reference to little Gary was worth the price of admission.

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11-14-2012, 08:51 PM
  #58
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No, it was Devellano who claimed the players and everyone else employed by the owners/ranchers were allowed to feed at their troughs. He included himself, and I would extend that by his definition, Bettman would qualify as well.
Sorry McSorely threatened Bettman after Bettman called players "labor". Apparently hockey players arent labor.
LOL.

Reality will hit home when the NHL files the same papers, pre-approved, they were about to file when saskin broke.
League re-organizes to central command and central contracting.
Contracts evaporate. (they dont exist anyways without a CBA and the players should have been made aware that their contracts dont mean squat after sept. 15 2012 nor are they entitled to anything other than what their contract is worth under the successor agreement.) how dumb are these players. even my nephew knows this.
Everyone becomes a UFA. But the league centrally controls, so any player looking at coming back will be put on the same team they were on before .
No more guaranteed contracts.
No revenue based Cap... but there WILL be a cap that pays out about 35% (average businesses labor costs)
Cap will not change unless owners view it as self-serving.



Players dont think they are cattle? I hope the re-branded NHL puts cows in jerseys for their first game back. I will throw all my money at them that i can...spend vacation money on it. I want the players to see real life.

Cancel the season and get going on that paperwork Mr. Bettman. The cows need to be made into the beef for my burger. MMMMmmmmm delicious burger.


Players are correct though. The great majority of them cant do anything else. So lets get that meat grinder going gary.
Get rid of the name badges too. ive never been the type to care who the discardable cow is.

NHL will still give the best players in the world the best pay of any pro hockey league and the safety and perks. just not a cent more.

Lets also be clear that just about every hockey insider is saying; after the friday night fiasco involving Fehr the owners are pushing to move on and terminate the season. Bettman cant officially do that but its clear their last offer will be the best the PA ever gets and Bettman will just take the time necessary to give the legal courts the safety net of illusionary wait time before declaring re-structuring and possible legal impasse.
in legal memo list all the PA statements that go against capitalism and negotiating. "They(owners) need to go out and make the money to pay for that (our raises)." -fehr - owners work for the players. Jackpot quote for NHL. "the players will not back down" - Fehr, Crosby, that imbecile Jonathon Toewes. thus they arent interested at all in negotiating. Done as dinner. Many others but thats all you need. MLB will be behind it and their trillion dollars, NFL and their trillion, NBA and their interests... politicians judges. Its commie red versus a capitalist company that was offering 50/50 to labor. "Well thats more than Uncle sam asks you to give and those fools spit in your hand". done.

The thing everyone misses, well theres many things like people ignorantly adopting the idea that a contract signed under a cap system is guaranteed value...never mind its terms will be held to the labor agreement its played under and thus salve to any successor agreement (thus they arent guaranteed anything but a job which will soon be taken away by this coming spring), is that the NHL isnt alone. The NHL got the first hard cap and they didnt do it alone. They are being supported by the juggernauts of leagues... MLB, NFL and NBA are very interested in the outcome and they will see fit that the NHL paves new ground for them. And from those MLB and NFL interests you have the politicians and legal powers that will make the next move by the NHL the easiest they have ever made.
Next up after that? monumental increase in franchise value. CHA CHING.

Thats right players. hold your ground like everyone, including bettman , knew you would. the NHL doesnt have to do anything more. They surprised everyone with how far they were willing to go to save the season and pay you cattle. Now the offer comes off the table - legal justification is the unknown of revenues being affected by the lost games. I like whats cooking.

Love it. See you next year.


Last edited by oilinblood: 11-14-2012 at 09:26 PM.
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Old
11-14-2012, 09:03 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by sipowicz View Post
Not so, the term "decommissioner" in reference to little Gary was worth the price of admission.

I'd say I enjoyed it too, but I feel like a pizza waiting for its pepperoni every time I post......

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11-15-2012, 04:01 AM
  #60
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What a bunch of bull. I don't even know where to start...

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11-15-2012, 04:39 AM
  #61
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classic macgregor...



one of the worst articles i've ever read.

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11-15-2012, 05:10 AM
  #62
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I start many threads here, Doc. You just don't like this one.
This one's so full of crap, I don't think anyone likes it. Grrrr...

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11-15-2012, 06:31 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by oilinblood View Post
LOL. that was the worst article in history. Maybe its the severe lack of reality and intelligence behind the words, but i get the feeling a NHL player might have written this.
LOL this made me laugh so much because its probably true!

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11-15-2012, 07:05 AM
  #64
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I enjoyed the article, big Naomi Klein fan and loved the reference.

It's not poorly written, it's conversational. I actually think it flows just fine.

Quote:
Front to back it all feels like a small-bore variation on Naomi Klein's "disaster capitalism," in which every negotiation must now be framed ideologically and as part of the never-ending emergency of our national economy. The media sell the cliffhanger because cliffhanger is what sells. Whatever happened to sitting in a room and talking about solutions? To polite discussion? To cool reason? To mutualism? Maybe serve a little coffee, a little slice of sponge cake.

Nope. It's all deathmetal and antagonism now. Grrrrr.

And in the whole, long history of disasters and capitalism, has there ever been a bigger disaster than the National Hockey League or its mortician, Gary Bettman? The decommissioner has managed in just 20 years to make the league invisible. An afterthought. An unfunny punch line to a joke no one recalls. By his own accounting, the league is poised on the brink of insolvency. Again. Still. A constant invalid.
I don't know how to disagree with any of this.

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11-15-2012, 07:06 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by oilinblood View Post
LOL. that was the worst article in history. Maybe its the severe lack of reality and intelligence behind the words, but i get the feeling a NHL player might have written this.
Can you refer to an example of the lack of intelligence "behind his words"?

It actually contains quite a few intelligent observations.


Last edited by Gobias Industries: 11-15-2012 at 07:15 AM.
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11-15-2012, 07:45 AM
  #66
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Can you refer to an example of the lack of intelligence "behind his words"?

It actually contains quite a few intelligent observations.
responding would only lead to me likely getting into trouble. i will stick to my opinion as you will to yours. i am not here to derail the thread with personal debate.

you find the article intelligent and i dont. The opinions are on the record and although tempting im not gonna touch your invite with a 10 foot pole. Nothing can be gained from it.

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11-15-2012, 07:56 AM
  #67
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responding would only lead to me likely getting into trouble. i will stick to my opinion as you will to yours. i am not here to derail the thread with personal debate.

you find the article intelligent and i dont. The opinions are on the record and although tempting im not gonna touch your invite with a 10 foot pole. Nothing can be gained from it.
Sounds good, I normally live on the Politics board, so I'm probaby far too adversarial when it comes to other boards, my bad.

I just don't see anything specific to justify the pages of anti-Fugu, anti-PA, anti-MacGregor in this thread.

I will say that anyone who finds that article lacking intelligence might be acting reactionary and reading shallowly. It's quite competent; I think anyone who can capably tie the NHL's issues in with the current cynicism and exploitation in society is not lacking intelligence and is rooted in reality.

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11-15-2012, 08:20 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by oilinblood View Post
Sorry McSorely threatened Bettman after Bettman called players "labor". Apparently hockey players arent labor.
LOL.

Reality will hit home when the NHL files the same papers, pre-approved, they were about to file when saskin broke.
League re-organizes to central command and central contracting.
Contracts evaporate. (they dont exist anyways without a CBA and the players should have been made aware that their contracts dont mean squat after sept. 15 2012 nor are they entitled to anything other than what their contract is worth under the successor agreement.) how dumb are these players. even my nephew knows this.
Everyone becomes a UFA. But the league centrally controls, so any player looking at coming back will be put on the same team they were on before .
No more guaranteed contracts.
No revenue based Cap... but there WILL be a cap that pays out about 35% (average businesses labor costs)
Cap will not change unless owners view it as self-serving.



Players dont think they are cattle? I hope the re-branded NHL puts cows in jerseys for their first game back. I will throw all my money at them that i can...spend vacation money on it. I want the players to see real life.

Cancel the season and get going on that paperwork Mr. Bettman. The cows need to be made into the beef for my burger. MMMMmmmmm delicious burger.


Players are correct though. The great majority of them cant do anything else. So lets get that meat grinder going gary.
Get rid of the name badges too. ive never been the type to care who the discardable cow is.

NHL will still give the best players in the world the best pay of any pro hockey league and the safety and perks. just not a cent more.

Lets also be clear that just about every hockey insider is saying; after the friday night fiasco involving Fehr the owners are pushing to move on and terminate the season. Bettman cant officially do that but its clear their last offer will be the best the PA ever gets and Bettman will just take the time necessary to give the legal courts the safety net of illusionary wait time before declaring re-structuring and possible legal impasse.
in legal memo list all the PA statements that go against capitalism and negotiating. "They(owners) need to go out and make the money to pay for that (our raises)." -fehr - owners work for the players. Jackpot quote for NHL. "the players will not back down" - Fehr, Crosby, that imbecile Jonathon Toewes. thus they arent interested at all in negotiating. Done as dinner. Many others but thats all you need. MLB will be behind it and their trillion dollars, NFL and their trillion, NBA and their interests... politicians judges. Its commie red versus a capitalist company that was offering 50/50 to labor. "Well thats more than Uncle sam asks you to give and those fools spit in your hand". done.

The thing everyone misses, well theres many things like people ignorantly adopting the idea that a contract signed under a cap system is guaranteed value...never mind its terms will be held to the labor agreement its played under and thus salve to any successor agreement (thus they arent guaranteed anything but a job which will soon be taken away by this coming spring), is that the NHL isnt alone. The NHL got the first hard cap and they didnt do it alone. They are being supported by the juggernauts of leagues... MLB, NFL and NBA are very interested in the outcome and they will see fit that the NHL paves new ground for them. And from those MLB and NFL interests you have the politicians and legal powers that will make the next move by the NHL the easiest they have ever made.
Next up after that? monumental increase in franchise value. CHA CHING.

Thats right players. hold your ground like everyone, including bettman , knew you would. the NHL doesnt have to do anything more. They surprised everyone with how far they were willing to go to save the season and pay you cattle. Now the offer comes off the table - legal justification is the unknown of revenues being affected by the lost games. I like whats cooking.

Love it. See you next year.
can anyone elaborate on the part about the papers they were going to file when Saskin broke?

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11-15-2012, 08:32 AM
  #69
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Not so, the term "decommissioner" in reference to little Gary was worth the price of admission.
Emulating the master, Gary Larson's, 'Shhh, the maestro is decomposing.'

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Ut3BRGKD2w...ng_maestro.jpg


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11-15-2012, 08:38 AM
  #70
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It pales compared to the master's, Gary Larson, 'Shhh, the maestro is decomposing.'

I smell a stolen reference...

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11-15-2012, 08:43 AM
  #71
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Got a very general business question here:

Is there some unwritten ethos in business that if there isn't a rule prohibiting something then there's no reason why it can't be done?

All of these particular rules that the League want to put into place or feel the need to have in place, some of them seem really unnecessary and just issues that can further bog down negotiations. Why the need to have to create all of these rules, most of which are simply to restrict the owners themselves from doing things (things that could in one way or another find ways to pay out more money to players). Can the PA really complain on legal grounds that if there isn't a particular rule against doing something that the owners therefore don't have the right not to do it? If I'm reading this right, then what a ****ing stupid mentality we've created in the legal system to have it be bad to not do something, simply because there's no rule prohibiting it, even if we still think that it wouldn't be a good thing to do.

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11-15-2012, 10:21 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
Got a very general business question here:

Is there some unwritten ethos in business that if there isn't a rule prohibiting something then there's no reason why it can't be done?

All of these particular rules that the League want to put into place or feel the need to have in place, some of them seem really unnecessary and just issues that can further bog down negotiations. Why the need to have to create all of these rules, most of which are simply to restrict the owners themselves from doing things (things that could in one way or another find ways to pay out more money to players). Can the PA really complain on legal grounds that if there isn't a particular rule against doing something that the owners therefore don't have the right not to do it? If I'm reading this right, then what a ****ing stupid mentality we've created in the legal system to have it be bad to not do something, simply because there's no rule prohibiting it, even if we still think that it wouldn't be a good thing to do.
There are no morals in business. It's not a question of doing what's right or wrong, but it's always a question of what can or can't I do.

If there is a loop hole, some GM or owner is going to find it and exploit it, if it's to their benefit.

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11-15-2012, 10:54 AM
  #73
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I'd say that article is pretty good, and what's to be expected from a middle schooler

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11-15-2012, 10:58 AM
  #74
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Not so, the term "decommissioner" in reference to little Gary was worth the price of admission.
I could be biased because of my hate for ESPN, but I only see that as sour grapes from Gary moving the cable deal to VS

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11-15-2012, 11:01 AM
  #75
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I'd say that article is pretty good, and what's to be expected from a middle schooler
I didn't know middle schoolers were capable of making comparisons between Naomi Klein and the league.

Seriously, let's all just jump on the guy for his writing style and completely ignore the point he's trying to make!

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