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We'll Meet Again, Don't Know Where, Don't Know When (CBA/Lockout) XXVII

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Old
11-14-2012, 03:25 PM
  #976
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
NFL contracts can include guaranteed money and the rookie cap has been in effect for years. It still didn't stop Young and Russell from getting paid millions for doing nothing.

Again as the poster I replied to tried to claim, how did the NFLPA get screwed over more than the NHLPA?

Utter nonsense.
The NFL rookie cap started last year with the new CBA.

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11-14-2012, 03:26 PM
  #977
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Also, I do think the players will get a better deal than is currently offered but they may have to make the first move in showing willingness to accept the NHL's linked salary cap and make whole structure first. Then the league will be more flexible on the contracting rights.

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11-14-2012, 03:27 PM
  #978
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Originally Posted by PensFanSince1989 View Post
The whole 'it's grown this much over this period of time so you should have no problem assuming that its going to grow at the same growth in the future' is just a bad argument. Did you buy a house in 2007 thinking 'gee, real estate prices have done nothing but go up over the last decade, how could I go wrong?'. And why is anyone buying anything but Apple Stock right now?! Have you seen how much its grown over the last 7 years? There's no way it does anything different over the next 7!
Exactly.

The only argument I've seen on HF that comes even close to being as asinine as the argument above is the following:

"Well franchises are vanity purchases [like sports cars] ergo, they should be willing to lose a few million on them each year."

Edit: Although to be fair to those who feel that the owners don't get enough flack, had Bettman not placed that gag order on the owners, I'm certain there would be much more venom towards the owners for their nuggets of "wisdom."

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Old
11-14-2012, 03:32 PM
  #979
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IslesBeBack View Post
One last thought of the day:

How come the owners don't just come out and say, come Thanksgiving we don't have a deal, we cancel the season. Enough is enough with this already????
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crows View Post
The players would say.. " we don't believe them"
And why would they? The official drop dead date last time was mid-February. Trying to make the deadline Thanksgiving is just going to give Fehr another excuse to pontificate about the NHL creating artificial deadlines

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Old
11-14-2012, 03:32 PM
  #980
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
Players can get cut anytime, which is why NFL contracts are front loaded and come with big signing bonuses (which are 100% guaranteed). Now many of these contracts have a majority of the yearly salary guaranteed as well.

So once again, how did the NFLPA get screwed more than the NHLPA?

Trying to tell me that Tagliabue had an easier time implementing UFA and a cap system than Bettman, is a flat out misrepresentation of the facts.

The difference was between the approach these two men took. One understood that protecting the integrity of his league was essential, while another allowed his league to become a laughingstock and a disgrace. And he is still doing it...
Yet NHL salaries have risen at above twice the rate of MLB players and NFL players. What a terrible way he has treated those players

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Old
11-14-2012, 03:33 PM
  #981
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Those long marathon meetings from a week ago seem like a distant memory now. Two stalemates in a three week span, that's an excellent way to conduct business.

Each day that goes by this become a bigger joke and embarrassment. I've been thinking that as long as both sides don't really seem to give a damn and continue to be stubborn and set in their ways, than I am not going to give a damn either. It's one thing to return to being a fan of the game and your team when the lockout is over, but I am sick and tired of getting wrapped up in all this crap, it's just too much.

Until I am given a reason to think differently, I now expect the whole month of December to be wiped out in the next week to 10 days. What's the alternative if they don't even meet again?

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Old
11-14-2012, 03:37 PM
  #982
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PBPantherfan View Post
The NFL rookie cap started last year with the new CBA.
The NFL has been under a rookie salary pool for years. The new CBA dramatically lowered these percentages.

However, it is a moot point because Goodell negotiated this deal.

The old rules were negotiated by Tagliabue and my entire point is that he had just as difficult a situation as Bettman and he handled it well.. And the NFLPA didn't come close to getting screwed under him.

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11-14-2012, 03:38 PM
  #983
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Originally Posted by bluesfan94 View Post
No, I'm not. I'm buying into what I actually believe. I think it would be asinine to make any more concessions from a bargaining standpoint.
Maybe it would, but I'll bet on it happening. They won't make it public, but the owners of teams like the Habs, Leafs, Flyers and Rangers must be putting tons of pressure on Bettman to save the season. Same case for all the third- and fourth-line players with little to no income this year who can't afford to miss an entire season - and every day, those voices get louder and more belligerent.

People like to compare this lockout to the last one, but the fact is, the circumstances couldn't be more different. Everyone knew the last lockout was coming YEARS in advance and planned accordingly. By contrast, nobody expected this one to go even this long. Players are losing their savings, owners are missing their profits, and neither side is happy about it.

I've predicted a January 1 start date to this season, and I stand by it. You'll see the two sides return to bargaining in a week to 10 days, a CBA signed in about a month, and the puck drops New Year's Day.

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Old
11-14-2012, 03:38 PM
  #984
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
Players can get cut anytime, which is why NFL contracts are front loaded and come with big signing bonuses (which are 100% guaranteed). Now many of these contracts have a majority of the yearly salary guaranteed as well.

So once again, how did the NFLPA get screwed more than the NHLPA?
The NHL gets paid a higher percentage of revenues than NFL players do, and NHL players have guaranteed contracts.

And it's a lot harder to justify missing games in the NFL for players because their careers and earning potential are even shorter than in the NHL, and owners of NFL teams are also more desperate to play because there's more money on the line and NFL teams aren't losing money hand over fist thanks to having actual revenue sharing.

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11-14-2012, 03:42 PM
  #985
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Originally Posted by Cmoneyflyguy View Post
Wha??
that's an insanely high number
Way higher than baseball, football, basketball
Guys like Prust are the ones who should keep their mouths shut.

"Hi, I kill penalties and lose every fight I'm in, but I'm paid 2M bucks a year. Hey owners, you're cheap!!!"

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Old
11-14-2012, 03:43 PM
  #986
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Theory: the NHLPA's membership would be better off without a union.

Discuss.

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Old
11-14-2012, 03:44 PM
  #987
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PensFanSince1989 View Post
Also, I do think the players will get a better deal than is currently offered but they may have to make the first move in showing willingness to accept the NHL's linked salary cap and make whole structure first. Then the league will be more flexible on the contracting rights.
I do think that if the NHL, or rather Bettman, ever was open to any kind of flexibility there would not have been a lockout in the first place.

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11-14-2012, 03:45 PM
  #988
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haseoke39 View Post
Theory: the NHLPA's membership would be better off without a union.

Discuss.
Probably YES.

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Old
11-14-2012, 03:45 PM
  #989
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
The NFL has been under a rookie salary pool for years. The new CBA dramatically lowered these percentages.

However, it is a moot point because Goodell negotiated this deal.

The old rules were negotiated by Tagliabue and my entire point is that he had just as difficult a situation as Bettman and he handled it well.. And the NFLPA didn't come close to getting screwed under him.
You mean the NFL players should be happy that their salaries have increased at half the rate salaries have for the NHL players.


Last edited by Orrthebest: 11-14-2012 at 03:46 PM. Reason: fix typo
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Old
11-14-2012, 03:45 PM
  #990
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DyerMaker66 View Post
Their revenue is not and will not be decreasing any time soon (current lock-out excluded).


History has shown that revenue will increase by 5% (or more): This is unreasonable in some way? The real problem is that you're buying Bettman's "poor me" attitude.

As stated before: HRR does not include all revenue that it could (and should).
No matter what you say or how you try to deflect, you simply cannot prove what future growth may be. Historical trends doesn't guarantee future patterns. That is not an opinion. That is an absolute fact. If you would like to argue otherwise, then the delusion in your argument won't merit further discussion.

But let's get back to what you actually said and what you're deflecting. You said the owners are asking for raises. You have no proof that future revenue will not suffer so you can't proclaim decreased revenue to be an impossible scenario. You don't believe it will drop but don't confuse yourself with what is your own opinion and what should be taken as fact. Revenues aren't protected from decreasing so as my example shows, it is possible for the owners to make less at 50% than at 43% taking context into consideration. Making less in dollar terms goes against the spirit of what you meant by the owners are asking for raises. You're free to back track your comment but your posts already show how ill conceived your comment and response are.

Again, you should take some economics courses before you comment on others understanding of the math. The reason why owners are able to deduct a certain amount of expenses is so that both sides can gain. Someone used the example of hot dogs which I think works well. If the owner has to give the players $3 for every $5 hot dog he sells in his arena and it costs him $3 to make that hot dog, why would the owner continue to offer the hot dog in his stadium when he ends losing $1 with each hot dog sold while giving the players $3 from the sale. What incentive does the owner have to provide these concessions at hockey games when he's losing money with each hot dog? Instead he'll tell his consumers to go buy the hot dog outside the stadium. You know how much money the players get from the hot dog vendor outside? ZERO DOLLARS. By splitting the $2 profit, the owner has the incentive to continue providing the hot dogs because he is making money and therefore the players are making money.

The real problem is that you're commenting on things you have seemingly taken little time to research and understand before engaging others in discussion and then make underhanded comments about their position when it seems you are the one that could use some crash courses on what both sides are proposing and the implications of each of those proposals.

Edit: why do all of a sudden have an avatar and more importantly, why is it a Sens player? Lol


Last edited by Ari91: 11-14-2012 at 03:52 PM.
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Old
11-14-2012, 03:46 PM
  #991
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Conflicted Habs fan View Post
I do think that if the NHL, or rather Bettman, ever was open to any kind of flexibility there would not have been a lockout in the first place.
Has nothing to do with being flexible and everything to do with his way of negotiating, and the PA. It's been said countless times it's part of the bargaining process. You lock out first then negotiate. Stupidest thing I've ever heard of but not surprising when you're talking about these 2 clowns.

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Old
11-14-2012, 03:46 PM
  #992
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
The NFL has been under a rookie salary pool for years. The new CBA dramatically lowered these percentages.

However, it is a moot point because Goodell negotiated this deal.

The old rules were negotiated by Tagliabue and my entire point is that he had just as difficult a situation as Bettman and he handled it well.. And the NFLPA didn't come close to getting screwed under him.
No there wasn't a rookie cap of any kind before last year. You may be thinking of the NBA but there has been nothing in the NFL.

http://msn.foxsports.com/topics/devi...n.htm?m_n=true


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Old
11-14-2012, 03:47 PM
  #993
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haseoke39 View Post
Theory: the NHLPA's membership would be better off without a union.

Discuss.
No, I don't think so, they just need better representation...

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Old
11-14-2012, 03:47 PM
  #994
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haseoke39 View Post
Theory: the NHLPA's membership would be better off without a union.

Discuss.
Contracts would not commonly be guaranteed, so the only guys who would benefit would be elite players who never have a bad season and sign a series of one year deals. So those guys and unicorns would be in better shape.

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11-14-2012, 03:53 PM
  #995
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Originally Posted by Fehr Time* View Post
... Players always play hard and try their best no matter what ...
This is the funniest thing in the whole thread.

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Old
11-14-2012, 03:55 PM
  #996
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Originally Posted by MacOfNiagara View Post
How did that work with:

- not cancelling real games (non-preseason)
- not cancelling November games
- not cancelling WC

Stay tuned for
- they won't cancel December games

and the much anticipated

- they would never cancel the season

Edit: Didnt mean to say I think owners will / would cancel the whole season by American Thanksgiving. I think Dec will come soon, and season comes late Dec / early Jan.
Fehr: "These artificial deadlines you know, we believe we can start the season in March, late March. No problem. They do it in baseball, AND THAT'S AMERICA'S PAST TIME, IT HAS NO PROBLEMS. If they can do it, the NHL would be better to come to the table, let's talk about not having a cap anymore and let's have an 82-games season starting on March 28, with the players getting a nominal 5% raise right away to cover for losing the summer vacation which they richly deserve after being so close to their families. You know, you can't ask a man who's job is to play hockey to scrub the toilet while the wife is *****ing about how she could only afford herself TWO new fur coats for thanksgiving. I mean, you ask the wife of the guy that works...worked? whatever, works at the Chrysler plant and ask her about what she thinks about only two new fur coats for thanksgiving. Outrageous! What do you think it makes the guy on welfare say? "Ima learning to skate to play for the Leafs, LOL?****ing Chrysler plant, here I come?" No. Our members are just like them good workers in Detroit, who want at least 3 new coats for their wife, a new palace to live in once in a while, and an island in the pacific for themselves."

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Old
11-14-2012, 03:56 PM
  #997
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The owners should just fold the teams if the players donīt want to play.

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Old
11-14-2012, 03:56 PM
  #998
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Post limit, new thread here:
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1283175

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