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Does Anybody Here Remember Vera Lynn? (CBA & Lockout Discussion) XXVIII ‎

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Old
11-14-2012, 05:29 PM
  #26
Hivemind
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hullois View Post
The owners are being ridiculous, even after the players concede the 50/50 split, owners want them to give up all contracts rights. And this whole "we make a take it or leave it offer, then go silent for two weeks" negociation technique from the NHL is bullcrap. And all that after the best season the league ever had.

Way to go owners, let's just kill the NHL.
See this post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freudian
Since there seems to be some confusion about NHLPAs proposal and some think it's a 50/50 split they are offering, I thought it would be appropriate to clarify.

NHLPA wants a guaranteed $1.91B in collective salary that will grow with 1.75% each year as long as it means the players share of HRR is larger than 50%. When 50% of HRR means a higher total salary for the players, it switches over to a linked system where players get 50/50.

The beauty of this system for the players is that owners wear the full risk of low growth in revenue.

Lets take a few different growth rates to illustrate how silly it is to call the players proposal a 50/50 split. I'm ignoring the lost games this year.

Scenario 1: Fans are really upset and revenue decreases with 1% each year on average

Players share of HRR
Year 1: 58,6%
Year 2: 60,3%
Year 3: 61,9%
Year 4: 63,7%
Year 5: 65,4%
Year 6: 67,3%


Scenario 2: Revenue increases with 2% each year on average
Year 1: 56,9%
Year 2: 56,8%
Year 3: 56,6%
Year 4: 56,5%
Year 5: 56,4%
Year 6: 56,2%


Scenario 3: Revenue increases with 5% each year on average
Year 1: 55,3%
Year 2: 53,6%
Year 3: 51,9%
Year 4: 50,3%
Year 5: 50,0%
Year 6: 50,0%


Scenario 4: Revenue increases with 7% each year on average
Year 1: 54,3%
Year 2: 51,6%
Year 3: 50,0%
Year 4: 50,0%
Year 5: 50,0%
Year 6: 50,0%

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Old
11-14-2012, 05:30 PM
  #27
CpatainCanuck
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hullois View Post
Nobody in NBA world is talking about the last lockout now. If Bettman can put his ego aside and get a deal ASAP, revenues will start growing again next season. Maybe not 7%, but it won't be long untill it reach somewhere close to that. But if they cancel the season, it may take a long long time for revenues to grow like that, you are right. But again, that's all on the owners.
BTW, you realize the NBA deal is about equal to the one the nhl is currently offering? If you think that lockout ended nicely, you should be encouraging the NHLPA to negotiate off the NHL's offer.

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Old
11-14-2012, 05:31 PM
  #28
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If the owners have all the leverage, why do they keep negotiating against themselves?

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Old
11-14-2012, 05:32 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by CpatainCanuck View Post
Indeed: I find it odd that people come into this thread with accusations without actually knowing the latest offers proffered by each side...at least as much as has been reported.
I think the only real information out there is the NHL's published offer "to save an 82 game season", from whenever it was given.

Other than that, we have the reported (second hand) rebuttal "proposals" made by the NHLPA (one of which was on the back of a napkin or something) and some loose information about the "make whole" provision (which to my knowledge hasn't been accepted by the PA) movement on revenue sharing (which, to my knowledge, hasn't been accepted by the league) and contradicting stories regarding the shortened season & pro-rated vs. full salary for players. All of which were reported / speculated on during the "secret meetings" last week.

So basically nothing more than third party reports. Would be nice if either side came out with an update...

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Old
11-14-2012, 05:32 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Greschner4 View Post
If the owners have all the leverage, why do they keep negotiating against themselves?
Because the NHLPA doesn't realize that yet. They continue to negotiate off their own offers.

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Old
11-14-2012, 05:33 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Raging Bull View Post
Sweet title. Made me look up the song on youtube to listen to it.
^^^^ post of the thread. all 1000 posts of course.

got this done by post #20 - nice!

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Old
11-14-2012, 05:35 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Scoobs View Post
Because the NHLPA doesn't realize that yet. They continue to negotiate off their own offers.
To be fair to Fehr, the league hasn't negociated off the PA's offer either.

I think that's a big problem, the two sides are talking AT each other, not quite TO each other.

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Old
11-14-2012, 05:35 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
The players never agreed to a 50/50 split, ever. They agreed to make every cent of their current deals until revenues raise high enough that their contracts are 50/50. Oh, and they want a guarantees 1.75% raise on top of that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greschner4 View Post
If the owners have all the leverage, why do they keep negotiating against themselves?
They care about the fans and the league and want the best for the players as well. On the other hand the players just want their money now and more later.
Read previous 100 threads to know the truth

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Old
11-14-2012, 05:37 PM
  #34
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This is going to end just like the last lockout:

The Union will miss an entire season of pay, crack and give in to the linked 50/50 split. The owners wont have to make whole any pay for this season since it wasn't played. There will be a 5-10% variance on all contracts.

The Union will once again waste a year off their contracts and earning potential for no reason.

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Old
11-14-2012, 05:38 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Parent View Post
To be fair to Fehr, the league hasn't negociated off the PA's offer either.

I think that's a big problem, the two sides are talking AT each other, not quite TO each other.
The league will never negotiate based on a delinked system. Not going to happen.

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Old
11-14-2012, 05:38 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greschner4 View Post
If the owners have all the leverage, why do they keep negotiating against themselves?
So now you criticize the owners for trying to negotiate? I agree: the owners could just sit tight and wait a year or two for the PA to fold. However the owners probably realize that that kind of attitude is unproductive, and want to get a season going without too much damage to the league. It is mind-boggling that the players leadership isn't on that page given how much more the players will hurt from a lost season than the owners will.

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Old
11-14-2012, 05:38 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Parent View Post
To be fair to Fehr, the league hasn't negociated off the PA's offer either.

I think that's a big problem, the two sides are talking AT each other, not quite TO each other.
Why should the league negotiate from a proposal that is rigged in favor of the players where the players get the full benefit of high revenue growth but suffer none of the risks of low revenue growth?

Of course the league won't use that as a basis for an economic system. They're not idiots (but they are very very mean!).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raging Bull View Post
Sweet title. Made me look up the song on youtube to listen to it.
Search for Dr Strangelove Ending. Not only do you get the song, but also images that fit this labor conflict.

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Old
11-14-2012, 05:39 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanklite View Post
This is going to end just like the last lockout:

The Union will miss an entire season of pay, crack and give in to the linked 50/50 split. The owners wont have to make whole any pay for this season since it wasn't played. There will be a 5-10% variance on all contracts.

The Union will once again waste a year off their contracts and earning potential for no reason.
Pretty much, it's already written in the sky.

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Old
11-14-2012, 05:42 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Greschner4 View Post
If the owners have all the leverage, why do they keep negotiating against themselves?

I guess you haven't notice that there is no negotiations happening. The NHL finally got tired of negotiating with themselves they are now waiting for the PA to begin negotiating with themselves.

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Old
11-14-2012, 05:42 PM
  #40
Phil Parent
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Originally Posted by HarryHabs View Post
Pretty much, it's already written in the sky.
I agree. I agree with Recchi who pretty much said the same thing... the guys should take the money now. It's a lot of ****ing money, and market inflation will still happen and they will get their raise no matter what.

Actually if I was the NHL I'd agree to their guaranteed raise! It happens naturally, law of the market.

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Old
11-14-2012, 05:45 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanklite View Post
This is going to end just like the last lockout:

The Union will miss an entire season of pay, crack and give in to the linked 50/50 split. The owners wont have to make whole any pay for this season since it wasn't played. There will be a 5-10% variance on all contracts.

The Union will once again waste a year off their contracts and earning potential for no reason.
Everyone but the PA knew this months ago...what are these kids drinking??

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Old
11-14-2012, 05:45 PM
  #42
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Even at the worst times before there was communication by phone or e-mail, at least between Steve F and Daly. Now they can't even muster up any of that?

Oh man this is going to get ugly real fast. Nothing will happen and the next we will hear is more cancellations. Just devestating....

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Old
11-14-2012, 05:46 PM
  #43
Kirk Muller
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Parent View Post
To be fair to Fehr, the league hasn't negociated off the PA's offer either.

I think that's a big problem, the two sides are talking AT each other, not quite TO each other.
The PA has stopped doing anything besides hoping the league would negotiate off their own offer hoping it would get better better. Unfortunately for the PA, it appears the NHL has caught on, Fehr waited to long to complete a deal, and appears things will get worse for them now. Its getting close to a drop dead date soon, and losing another full year ultimately just hurts the players long term.

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Old
11-14-2012, 05:46 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by HarryHabs View Post
Pretty much, it's already written in the sky.
Yet there has to be another missed season and significant damage done to the game to reach a conclusion we already all can predict? How pathetic is that??

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Old
11-14-2012, 05:49 PM
  #45
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Right now, I'm not taking either side.

The owners need to get together, figure out what their best offer can be so no teams are losing money, and submit that to the NHLPA and give them a deadline to accept or reject the offer. They accept, then let the puck drop. They decline, make it clear that the season will be cancelled.

I don't think they have made the best offer they can. They need to do it and make it clear of what will happen if it is rejected.

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Old
11-14-2012, 05:51 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Spezza19 View Post
Even at the worst times before there was communication by phone or e-mail, at least between Steve F and Daly. Now they can't even muster up any of that?

Oh man this is going to get ugly real fast. Nothing will happen and the next we will hear is more cancellations. Just devestating....
There is no reason to meet or talk.

The NHL has given their stance, and altered it each time. The NHLPA has given their same malarkey for 3 months now.


I don't blame the NHL for not reaching out to them. They clearly told the PA this is the deal. Work off it or don't, that is up to you.

This is their league. They gave the Union the chance to be a partner but they choose instead to fire Kelly and give complete control to Fehr.

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Old
11-14-2012, 05:52 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hullois View Post
The owners are being ridiculous, even after the players concede the 50/50 split, owners want them to give up all contracts rights. And this whole "we make a take it or leave it offer, then go silent for two weeks" negociation technique from the NHL is bullcrap. And all that after the best season the league ever had.

Way to go owners, let's just kill the NHL.
The players haven't actually conceeded 50/50 apart from de-linking the salary cap, giving themselves guaranteed raise every year and saying, well, if the league grows at a fast enough pace, you'll get to 50/50.

When the players actually concede 50-50 linked cap, you'll see the league move on contracting rights.

In other words, stop buying the players spin.

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Old
11-14-2012, 05:53 PM
  #48
CpatainCanuck
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Originally Posted by 5 Minute Major View Post
Right now, I'm not taking either side.

The owners need to get together, figure out what their best offer can be so no teams are losing money, and submit that to the NHLPA and give them a deadline to accept or reject the offer. They accept, then let the puck drop. They decline, make it clear that the season will be cancelled.

I don't think they have made the best offer they can. They need to do it and make it clear of what will happen if it is rejected.
Umm...no teams losing money? I'm pretty sure the Phoenix Coyotes will still be losing money even with the current offer. They lost 24.4 million last year...

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Old
11-14-2012, 05:54 PM
  #49
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I am just posting this to being us closer to a new thread, and thus a new thread title.

It's all I've got to look forward to at this point.

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Old
11-14-2012, 05:55 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by Hanklite View Post
There is no reason to meet or talk.

The NHL has given their stance, and altered it each time. The NHLPA has given their same malarkey for 3 months now.

I don't blame the NHL for not reaching out to them. They cleared told the PA this is the deal. Work off it or don't, that is up to you.
Now we will see if this union will again follow the pied piper of the edge of the cliff. History is about to repeat itself IMO

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