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Off-season Madness the 3rd: Jeffrey Loria taketh and Jeffrey Loria giveth away

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Old
11-14-2012, 05:24 PM
  #776
Everlong
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Originally Posted by Jozay View Post
Johnson was the key piece for the Jays. If they dont resign him, it might not be worth it.
It's still a fantastic deal even if JJ walks after 1 year. Having a year to soften the idea of playing in toronto, and the impact he'll have, is a pretty good investment despite the outcome.

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11-14-2012, 05:25 PM
  #777
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Johnson was the key piece for the Jays. If they dont resign him, it might not be worth it.
Reyes is arguably the best short-stop in the league.

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11-14-2012, 05:26 PM
  #778
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Originally Posted by Powdered Toast Man View Post
Reyes is arguably the best short-stop in the league.
Johnson has ace like stuff. If he stays healthy, he could be one of the best pitchers in the game.

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11-14-2012, 05:27 PM
  #779
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JP gets you more in return than Buck would and I don't see the reason to put Rogers into the deal when he looks like a very solid piece of hte bullpen. Look, I like JP as a person and I like the home runs. But he has more value to the Jays as trade bait than he does in the lineup.
i think AA can afford to trade 1 good reliever

if we want to add a big hitter around 8-12 mil say without going over 120 million


then its like:

santos (2.7)
lind (4.5)
arencibia (0.5)
7.7 mil total

or

rogers (0.5)
lind (4.5)
buck (6.0)
11 mil. total

for.......


something like that

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11-14-2012, 05:27 PM
  #780
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Originally Posted by Everlong View Post
It's still a fantastic deal even if JJ walks after 1 year. Having a year to soften the idea of playing in toronto, and the impact he'll have, is a pretty good investment despite the outcome.
There is no way this is a "fantastic deal" if Johnson walks after one year.

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11-14-2012, 05:28 PM
  #781
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Originally Posted by Jozay View Post
What makes you say that?
On tsn.ca there is a video called "Creating a Contender" where JJ's agent is interviewed, and he pretty much flat out says that JJ wont sign an extension.
To paraphrase him, he said that JJ will either have a very good year and could sign a contract making him the highest paid pitcher ever, or if he doesn't have an amazing year he'll still get a multi-year deal for a good amount of money.

He also says how AA doesn't like to spend a lot of money on pitchers, so that could mean JJ signs elsewhere next year.

And he also mentioned that he wouldn't be surprised if AA flips one of the big 3 Toronto acquired to help fill another position/replenish the farm.

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11-14-2012, 05:28 PM
  #782
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We either need to resign Johnson or trade him and recoup some solid assets. Having him just walk after this season would make this deal pretty brutal for us.
Well at the very least we get a free comp pick if he walks to recoup 1 prospect back. I would of figured you of all people would be in favour of bringing in a talented player who can help us even though its for only 1 year. Have faith!

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11-14-2012, 05:29 PM
  #783
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Unfortunately I also don't see JJ re-signing long term...he's only 28-29 and he's going to be expecting and getting a 10-12 year deal... not going to happen, and not really a realistic contract to be giving away. Package JJ, Arencibia and Lind for a MONSTER LF or 1B player. The Jays will still have an above average rotation in Morrow, Buerhle, Romero, Happ +....IMO.

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11-14-2012, 05:30 PM
  #784
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What I find amazing is the speed we now have. I know all players won't be full time staters, but look at the potential.

Bonifacio (50 - 60)
Gose (50 - 60)
Davis (40 - 50)
Reyes (40 - 50)
Izturis (15 - 25)
Lawrie (15 - 25)
Rasmus/Encarnacion (10 - 15)

I don't think I can recall a team in major league history with so much speed.

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11-14-2012, 05:31 PM
  #785
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Originally Posted by Nuckles37 View Post
On tsn.ca, there is a video called "Creating a Contender" where JJ's agent is interviewed, and he pretty much flat out says that JJ wont sign an extension.
To paraphrase him, he said that JJ will either have a very good year and could sign a contract making him the highest paid pitcher ever, or if he doesn't have an amazing year he'll still get a multi-year deal for a good amount of money.

He also says how AA doesn't like to spend a lot of money on pitchers, so that could mean JJ signs elsewhere next year.

And he also mentioned that he wouldn't be surprised if AA flips one of the big 3 Toronto acquired to help fill another position/replenish the farm.
Wow. This hurts. But I doubt AA would make the deal if he didnt think he could resign Johnson.

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11-14-2012, 05:32 PM
  #786
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Originally Posted by p.l.f. View Post
i think AA can afford to trade 1 good reliever

if we want to add a big hitter around 8-12 mil say without going over 120 million


then its like:

santos (2.7)
lind (4.5)
arencibia (0.5)
7.7 mil total

or

rogers (0.5)
lind (4.5)
buck (6.0)
11 mil. total

for.......


something like that
Why are you so hung up on getting rid of a reliever? And Lind makes $5-million + $2-million buyout of his option, so your numbers have been wrong...

As it stands, nobody will take Lind unless we kick in most, or at least part, of his contract so you can forget trading him at this point.

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11-14-2012, 05:33 PM
  #787
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Well at the very least we get a free comp pick if he walks to recoup 1 prospect back. I would of figured you of all people would be in favour of bringing in a talented player who can help us even though its for only 1 year. Have faith!
Sorry but recouping one compensation pick doesnt excite me. Johnson is the key to the deal and basically the reason we took on Reyes and Buerhles contracts. To give up all the young talent and lock into the money longterm we did it would be extremely dissapointing if he just walked. If he doesnt want to sign a extension when presented then we should deal him.

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11-14-2012, 05:33 PM
  #788
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Originally Posted by Nuckles37 View Post
On tsn.ca there is a video called "Creating a Contender" where JJ's agent is interviewed, and he pretty much flat out says that JJ wont sign an extension.
To paraphrase him, he said that JJ will either have a very good year and could sign a contract making him the highest paid pitcher ever, or if he doesn't have an amazing year he'll still get a multi-year deal for a good amount of money.

He also says how AA doesn't like to spend a lot of money on pitchers, so that could mean JJ signs elsewhere next year.

And he also mentioned that he wouldn't be surprised if AA flips one of the big 3 Toronto acquired to help fill another position/replenish the farm.
Weird how the first post about the agent was optimistic while everything since has been very negative.

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Old
11-14-2012, 05:40 PM
  #789
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Woah easy guys, JJ has stated he is excited to come to Toronto. If we have a good seasons and he puts up big numbers and we can show him the $$$ than I see no reason why he wouldn't re-sign here. Last year, AA was in on Fielder and Darvish, now this deal....maybe JJ is his guy and has been for a while, so don't be so quick to suggest that AA would let him walk away after 1 year.

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11-14-2012, 05:41 PM
  #790
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My albiet casual fan take is that Johnson may only play one year in Toronto, but he knows he'll get a huge payday, and may very well play lights out-as many players do in contract years. Even if Toronto lets him go at the end of the season, they still got another pitcher and shortstop out of it, and how knows what the future holds.

Would love to see Doc back, after having a struggling year, but I fear that Phillies would ask far more than AA is willing to give (and assuming he waves his NTC-though I think he would for Toronto, particularly for a team on cusp on something special)

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11-14-2012, 05:41 PM
  #791
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Not going to listen to his agent speak on what he thinks AA may do that is just silly. If JJ wants big money and proves his worth, the Jays can be a player.

You don't make a trade like this, than turn around and make another deal to "replenish the farm"

Absurd.

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11-14-2012, 05:43 PM
  #792
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Woah easy guys, JJ has stated he is excited to come to Toronto. If we have a good seasons and he puts up big numbers and we can show him the $$$ than I see no reason why he wouldn't re-sign here. Last year, AA was in on Fielder and Darvish, now this deal....maybe JJ is his guy and has been for a while, so don't be so quick to suggest that AA would let him walk away after 1 year.
Well yeah, if the Jays have a good season and JJ plays well, then I don't see why they wont offer him the big bucks to stay.

But if he struggles and still wants a huge paycheck, then AA might let him go.

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Old
11-14-2012, 05:43 PM
  #793
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I think the 4m was more associated with Reyes' 2018 buyout, although either way is perfectly fine. Money is money.
Possible but hard to see Marlins giving away buyout money when that option is a LONG way away. Could be picked up or declined by then (likely declined). Either way, some flexibility for the Jays.

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11-14-2012, 05:44 PM
  #794
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Originally Posted by Spezza19 View Post
Woah easy guys, JJ has stated he is excited to come to Toronto. If we have a good seasons and he puts up big numbers and we can show him the $$$ than I see no reason why he wouldn't re-sign here. Last year, AA was in on Fielder and Darvish, now this deal....maybe JJ is his guy and has been for a while, so don't be so quick to suggest that AA would let him walk away after 1 year.
Yeah, because he's just going to say "Yeah, im not that happy I got traded to Toronto"?

I say, try and resign him this offseason, so if he does kill it, we wouldnt have to pay huge money.

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11-14-2012, 05:44 PM
  #795
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Weird how the first post about the agent was optimistic while everything since has been very negative.
His agent believes JJ might be on the move because of "how careful AA usually is in allocating his dollars." he's just assuming that AA won't put up the big bucks to keep him which is nothing more than just that...an assumption. Winning is the biggest attraction. His agent also had more concern that AA would deal JJ at some point rather than insinuating anything about an extension. This is what happens when people post opinions, rather than what someone actually said.


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11-14-2012, 05:45 PM
  #796
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Not going to listen to his agent speak on what he thinks AA may do that is just silly. If JJ wants big money and proves his worth, the Jays can be a player.

You don't make a trade like this, than turn around and make another deal to "replenish the farm"

Absurd.
To be fair Philly actually did exactly that when they traded for Halladay and then got rid of Lee.

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11-14-2012, 05:45 PM
  #797
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Sorry but recouping one compensation pick doesnt excite me. Johnson is the key to the deal and basically the reason we took on Reyes and Buerhles contracts. To give up all the young talent and lock into the money longterm we did it would be extremely dissapointing if he just walked. If he doesnt want to sign a extension when presented then we should deal him.
Just thought I would dig this up for you from back in June

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Marisnick, Justin Nicolino and Carlos Perez for Matt Garza and Junior Lake
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Morrow is injured

Ups offer to Marisnick, Syndergaard and Perez for Garza and Lake
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I know that Woodman will come in and freak at my proposal but tonight is a good reality of just how thin are rotation is. One injury to either Morrow or Romero and this rotation all the sudden has the potential for disaster. Our farm is becoming so stacked right now that I think we can afford to make one of these deals even if it looks like overpayment to some. Im a huge prospect fan but they are generally overrated by each fanbase and not always a given to fullfill the potential. With each guy I prosposed we have other highly touted guys at there positions (Gose=Marisnick, d'Arnaud=Perez and Sanchez, Nicolino, Norris=Syndergaard).

Jays could badly use a durable #3 innings eater like Garza.
So we get better then Garza for less then what you said and now you have second feelings about it due to the money of others in the deal?

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11-14-2012, 05:46 PM
  #798
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Arizona wants a shortstop, so barring a three-way the Jays are now out of any Upton talks.

Buehrle is great as a #3 starter, no need to swap him for Garza (unless he really is going to be upset over the Pit Bull ban...).

Bonifacio is a much better hitter than you'd expect to see batting ninth - it's his defensive limitations (especially in the infield) that keep him from being a lock for a starting role. Even so, I can see him as the starting LF. I think people will be pleasantly surprised when they see what we got in him.

Ibanez... he certainly came up big in a couple of games this post-season, but the Jays already acquired a platoon mate for Lind at the DH spot by picking up Buck. The numbers between them should be pretty respectable for the position, and won't cost any more assets or cash.

I admit I do still very much want a big LH bat, but with a payroll hovering just under $120 million, I don't know how much more room Anthopolous can possibly have to add.

Guthrie... again, it depends how much money Anthopolous has to work with. I'm perfectly content with Happ as the fifth starter, but I'd like them to have a swingman under contract that they can look to for long relief/spot starts (basically what Villanueva provided last year). Unless a controllable guy like Ogando comes back in an Arencibia trade, I can see waiting until Februrary to see what arms are still available on the FA market (like a Scott Feldman?), as asking prices typically go down after New Year's and we'd want to get somebody on the cheap if at all possible.
John Buck has been terrible against righties and lefties the past couple of seasons, and doesn't have strong career splits either. I'm not sure what makes you think that he would be a good platoon bat.

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Sorry but recouping one compensation pick doesnt excite me. Johnson is the key to the deal and basically the reason we took on Reyes and Buerhles contracts. To give up all the young talent and lock into the money longterm we did it would be extremely dissapointing if he just walked. If he doesnt want to sign a extension when presented then we should deal him.
Losing Josh Johnson frees up nearly 14M in pay-roll, and nets the Jays a compensation pick, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that, and FTR Jose Reyes is easily the most valuable asset in this trade, not Josh Johnson.

In fact, pitcher attrition rates being what they are, I'm not sure I would even be comfortable with signing Johnson to an extension, assuming that he will be looking to set the record for money earned by a FA SP.

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11-14-2012, 05:48 PM
  #799
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Arizona wants a shortstop, so barring a three-way the Jays are now out of any Upton talks.

Buehrle is great as a #3 starter, no need to swap him for Garza (unless he really is going to be upset over the Pit Bull ban...).

Bonifacio is a much better hitter than you'd expect to see batting ninth - it's his defensive limitations (especially in the infield) that keep him from being a lock for a starting role. Even so, I can see him as the starting LF. I think people will be pleasantly surprised when they see what we got in him.

Ibanez... he certainly came up big in a couple of games this post-season, but the Jays already acquired a platoon mate for Lind at the DH spot by picking up Buck. The numbers between them should be pretty respectable for the position, and won't cost any more assets or cash.

I admit I do still very much want a big LH bat, but with a payroll hovering just under $120 million, I don't know how much more room Anthopolous can possibly have to add.

Guthrie... again, it depends how much money Anthopolous has to work with. I'm perfectly content with Happ as the fifth starter, but I'd like them to have a swingman under contract that they can look to for long relief/spot starts (basically what Villanueva provided last year). Unless a controllable guy like Ogando comes back in an Arencibia trade, I can see waiting until Februrary to see what arms are still available on the FA market (like a Scott Feldman?), as asking prices typically go down after New Year's and we'd want to get somebody on the cheap if at all possible.
IF we can swap Buerhle for Garza, AA should do it. Garza is younger, and can pitch really well in the AL east.

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11-14-2012, 05:49 PM
  #800
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Just thought I would dig this up for you from back in June







So we get better then Garza for less then what you said and now you have second feelings about it due to the money of others in the deal?
Totally different situations. We werent commiting to two potentially albatross deals in that scenario. I was also being extremely reactionary when those posts were made because are rotation was going down in flames.

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