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Phoenix LXIV: Will You Still Need Me, Will You Still Read Me, on Thread LXIV?

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Old
11-14-2012, 02:03 PM
  #651
Slashers98
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Originally Posted by Conflicted Habs fan View Post
It's like watching a 50lb pig free falling down your tallest skyscraper. You already know what's going to happen in the end but you just have to watch to be absolutely certain that those proponents who claim it has wings are certainly wrong
haha, i really like the analogy which is why I come here on a daily basis!

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11-14-2012, 03:22 PM
  #652
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Joyce Clark ‏@clarkjv

I urge everyone to review tonight's council meeting & what CM says. Go to http://www.glendaleaz.com and cable channel 11 to watch online & worry

Sorry. It's not meant to. I'm officially worried.


Joyce is getting concerned.

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11-14-2012, 03:36 PM
  #653
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I'm going to go way-way far in advance, and pre-empt naming of thread LXIX with a Canadian/Bryan Adams theme in the honour of former-Councillor Clark...


Phoenix LXIX: Was the Thread of '69:

...Oh when Gary looks back,
That franchise seemed to last forever,
And if he just could sell it,
Yeah, the NHL wanted to stay there,
Darcy's cupcakes were the best of his life

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11-14-2012, 03:37 PM
  #654
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Originally Posted by cbcwpg View Post
Joyce Clark ‏@clarkjv

I urge everyone to review tonight's council meeting & what CM says. Go to http://www.glendaleaz.com and cable channel 11 to watch online & worry

Sorry. It's not meant to. I'm officially worried.


Joyce is getting concerned.
That should be watch CM Knaack

https://twitter.com/clarkjv/status/268577254559338497

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11-14-2012, 03:43 PM
  #655
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I can't access it, but why would Joyce be concerned-because the deal is in danger of falling through, or the deal is close to being signed (I would THINK it's the former, considering how much of a proponent she was of the deal)

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11-14-2012, 03:49 PM
  #656
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I can't access it, but why would Joyce be concerned-because the deal is in danger of falling through, or the deal is close to being signed (I would THINK it's the former, considering how much of a proponent she was of the deal)
I think she's worrying about Glendales budget in general. But I can't see it either

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11-14-2012, 03:52 PM
  #657
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I can't access it, but why would Joyce be concerned-because the deal is in danger of falling through, or the deal is close to being signed (I would THINK it's the former, considering how much of a proponent she was of the deal)
Knaack said she "wouldn't vote for this one" and said it should be left to the next council.

Edit: Ok I watched it. They've put off some job cuts until at least Dec 4, maybe new council.


Last edited by David_99: 11-14-2012 at 04:11 PM.
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11-14-2012, 04:28 PM
  #658
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Knaack said she "wouldn't vote for this one" and said it should be left to the next council.

Edit: Ok I watched it. They've put off some job cuts until at least Dec 4, maybe new council.
Then I can see why she's "worried": because if Knaack isn't going to vote, that could make Nov 27 even more interesting-sounds like she just wants the next council to handle issues.

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11-14-2012, 05:04 PM
  #659
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I love how Clark doesn't even know when she is being ironic.

... from the council meeting, when talking about need to make cuts to staff and city programs.

"Now at some point..... you have to look at the programs delivered to citizens and you have to make sure that those programs are paying for themselves.... we cannot afford additional largesse right now".

It's a darn good thing that the Coyotes are not a COG program, because if they were, they would have to "pay for themselves".

Knaack...

"I have a lot of heartburn...." (I guess so).

"We're rushing into things... the new council needs to have a chance to look at things... I don't feel comfortable... I will not be voting on this one at this time.... "

I think that Knaack was not referring to the Jamison deal, but it sounds as though Knaack is getting jittery when facing the cuts, whereas Clark seems completely comfortable with cutting staff. My interpretation is that Knaack seems inclined to defer important decisions to the next council. I think she's getting cold feet.

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11-14-2012, 05:28 PM
  #660
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I love how Clark doesn't even know when she is being ironic.

... from the council meeting, when talking about need to make cuts to staff and city programs.

"Now at some point..... you have to look at the programs delivered to citizens and you have to make sure that those programs are paying for themselves.... we cannot afford additional largesse right now".

It's a darn good thing that the Coyotes are not a COG program, because if they were, they would have to "pay for themselves".

Knaack...

"I have a lot of heartburn...." (I guess so).

"We're rushing into things... the new council needs to have a chance to look at things... I don't feel comfortable... I will not be voting on this one at this time.... "

I think that Knaack was not referring to the Jamison deal, but it sounds as though Knaack is getting jittery when facing the cuts, whereas Clark seems completely comfortable with cutting staff. My interpretation is that Knaack seems inclined to defer important decisions to the next council. I think she's getting cold feet.

would the Yotes not count as a "big decision" if that's in fact true?

Going to be very interesting in Glendale if they get an agreement with GJ about the Yotes, and at the same time have to cut services/programs. At that point people will make noise saying "what exactly did we vote for a tax increase then?"

Hope everyone is up on their legals-might CF start offering night courses?

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11-14-2012, 05:31 PM
  #661
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Originally Posted by Whileee View Post
I think that Knaack was not referring to the Jamison deal, but it sounds as though Knaack is getting jittery when facing the cuts, whereas Clark seems completely comfortable with cutting staff. My interpretation is that Knaack seems inclined to defer important decisions to the next council. I think she's getting cold feet.
I think they are going to approve the JIG lease on Mon 11/26 at 3pm.

* Final action of last night was noticing a special meeting for that date/time


Last edited by CasualFan: 11-14-2012 at 05:39 PM. Reason: *
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11-14-2012, 05:39 PM
  #662
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Originally Posted by cbcwpg View Post
Joyce Clark ‏@clarkjv

I urge everyone to review tonight's council meeting & what CM says. Go to http://www.glendaleaz.com and cable channel 11 to watch online & worry

Sorry. It's not meant to. I'm officially worried.

Joyce is getting concerned.

Anytime Clark is worried, it can only be a good thing.

(Except on those rare occasions of it being a harbinger of a worse thing to come...)

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11-14-2012, 06:10 PM
  #663
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Quick thoughts:

- One of the items that got a lot of discussion was out sourcing custodial services to save something like $250k per year. Aside from the hilarious irony of arguing over such a small amount when compared to the overall budget situation, this is an important tea leaf as the outsourcing recommendation was made by staff. Skeete would not likely be forwarding current FY budget cuts to council unless he was going to bring the JIG Lease forward.

- Scruggs motioned to continue the item so the future council could have input on what cuts are being done. The motioned carried with Frate, Knaack, Scruggs, and Alvarez supporting the continuance. The tea leaf here is that decisions on how/what services to reduce are being put off until the future council is seated. Or put simply, they are deferring the payment decisions.

- Payment decisions are separate and distinct from the JIG Lease. The lease is a spending decision. While Knaack and Frate are willing to defer to the future council on how to pay for it, I do not believe they will defer on whether or not to spend. We could spend hours discussing why that is poor public policy, which may actually be more enjoyable than spending time with the in-laws but I digress...

- The meeting reinforced the plain fact that none of these people are even remotely qualified for their positions and their Leg.Aides must be equally worthless. They do not understand elementary governance concepts, they do not perceive fiscal impacts, and they would all flunk Accounting 101. Scruggs is the only one with even a ballpark idea of what is going on.

Anyway, I don't want to jinx it and lord knows that I've been wrong before and I'll be wrong again, but, I really think they are going to try to push this through. I cannot wait to see what the fallout will be. Could be nothing; could be the newly elected officials all combine to support a referendum; could be lawsuits; could be anything.

But it sure seems like Glendale is ready to slide down the chimney with a wonderful gift for us all!

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11-14-2012, 06:12 PM
  #664
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Originally Posted by CasualFan View Post
I think they are going to approve the JIG lease on Mon 11/26 at 3pm.

* Final action of last night was noticing a special meeting for that date/time
I didn't take the time to catch that final action... interesting.

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11-14-2012, 07:25 PM
  #665
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In addition to "omnishambles", Ken Jones also introduced the concept of "bundling" last night.

"It is a legal term even if it is something that I would use to tie up a pile of wood." ... classic explanation.

Question: Who is giving Ken this material? I don't think he came up with concept of "Attorney General/bundling/open meeting law violation" all by himself. It goes beyond his normal superficial rants. Elaine Scruggs? Norma Alverez? Joe Cobb? David Kimmerle? Rod Williams? Goldwater? Balsillie?

http://www.glendaleaz.com/video/

Quote:
Glendale City Council Meeting
November 13, 2012
(1:50:02)


Taxpayer Mr. Ken Jones: Six more weeks... Six more weeks and what kind of council have you been? Glendale still has a black eye for your false dated financial reports. Many thousands of our tax dollars were spent on lawyers to defend you for that signing of documents that didn't have the proper date on 'em. Now, four more of you want to break the law again. You want to vote "yes" on a $320 million over priced hockey deal. Legally you cannot do that.... You need to hear this too Horatio... Four of you met with Jamison last week... have disqualified yourself... All four of you have disqualified yourself from voting on the Jamison lease... Those meetings were not a council action... they were individual actions by four of you. The Attorney General of the State of Arizona... his office calls that "bundling".... "bundling". Thats a legal term even if its something that I would use to tie up a pile of wood... but in this case "bundling" is a legal term... and it is illegal. You knew that that man was gonna wanting to do business with the company... you individually met with him and left some council members out... He didn't meet with some of 'em... Now the four of you must disqualify yourself from voting on that... or you will be committing a serious crime. Don't give us another black eye. All you need to do is leave this up to the next council and let them work with it. The people in Yucca district spoke loud and clear... that they didn't want this council to spend the money on the Coyotes. Joyce Clark only got 40% of the vote even though she is the incumbent over there. The same feeling is all over the city. You can hang your hat on the fact that at least 60% of the people don't want you spending that money when we need it for other things. Have a good evening.

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11-14-2012, 08:52 PM
  #666
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In addition to "omnishambles", Ken Jones also introduced the concept of "bundling" last night.

"It is a legal term even if it is something that I would use to tie up a pile of wood." ... classic explanation.

Question: Who is giving Ken this material?
... ever watch American Pickers there ducks? Co-star "Franky" Fritz is the King of Bundling, and likely the source of Ken Jones's inspiration on that one. Must be a fan of the show. Cant get something for the price you wanna pay? Bundle. Pick several items and offer a higher price for everything, trick old Farmer Jack into giving you that Texaco sign for what you wanted to pay for it in the first place.

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11-14-2012, 08:55 PM
  #667
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Ken Jones brought up a very valid point in regards to Joyce Clarke, he stated that she only received 40% of her districts vote and that it was a condemnation of her stance on the Coyotes. How in good conscience could she even vote on this issue Nov 27th knowing full well that her opinion is not the expressed view of her constituents.

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11-14-2012, 09:01 PM
  #668
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Ken Jones brought up a very valid point in regards to Joyce Clarke, he stated that she only received 40% of her districts vote and that it was a condemnation of her stance on the Coyotes. How in good conscience could she even vote on this issue Nov 27th knowing full well that her opinion is not the expressed view of her constituents.
Good conscience has nothing to do with it.

I quote...

“Let me tell you something, I’m a duly elected council member,” Clark said last week on a Valley radio sports-talk show.

Yes she is. And one with a huge chip on her shoulder and is out to prove a point no matter the cost. My take... " I'm right and to heck with everyone else".


Last edited by cbcwpg: 11-14-2012 at 09:07 PM.
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11-14-2012, 09:21 PM
  #669
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Originally Posted by ducks2010 View Post
In addition to "omnishambles", Ken Jones also introduced the concept of "bundling" last night.

"It is a legal term even if it is something that I would use to tie up a pile of wood." ... classic explanation.

Question: Who is giving Ken this material? I don't think he came up with concept of "Attorney General/bundling/open meeting law violation" all by himself. It goes beyond his normal superficial rants. Elaine Scruggs? Norma Alverez? Joe Cobb? David Kimmerle? Rod Williams? Goldwater? Balsillie?

Yeah, I heard that too. It sounded like he was trying to make two accusations: violation of arm's length principal; illegal contract bundle in the transaction. Or maybe he really was talking about fire wood? I don't know but he did make me think about it for a second.

Arm's Length Principal is pretty straight forward. To preserve market value, the buyer and seller have no relationship. If the meetings occurred as Jones describes, it could be an irritation. I'm not familiar with AZ contract/procurement law to know what the regulations are. Maybe there aren't any regulations at all. Either way, it's still pretty great if it turns out that some members of the city council did meet with Jamison. Maybe they should mix in a COI orientation once in a while.

Bundles are probably not as straight forward, if I understand what Jones is trying to say. In this transaction, JIG is a series of LLCs. But none of them have substantial physical assets. The value of JIG is it's ability to assemble contracts. A handful of those contracts would be with Glendale. In those contracts, the ability to assign, and the counterparty ability to prevent an assignment, is where many opportunities reside. I don't know if they are necessarily illegal opportunities or if there are AZ regulations on public contracts in this area. But if you can bundle the contracts together and the city allows the bundle to be freely assigned, then JIG would have liquidity.

I saw Othmar say the Odham Tribe rumor was one that makes sense from a potential investor perspective. It would be the best work ever if the tribe was the money behind JIG and the rubes at city hall never did due diligence before handing over bundled assignability for contracts on city assets. I know, it's a really unlikely scenario, but it is Glendale.

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11-14-2012, 09:22 PM
  #670
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Good conscience has nothing to do with it.

I quote...

Let me tell you something, Im a duly elected council member, Clark said last week on a Valley radio sports-talk show.

Yes she is. And one with a huge chip on her shoulder and is out to prove a point no matter the cost. My take... " I'm right and to heck with everyone else".
But she needs Knaack to follow her into the dark alley, and Knaack might be getting a bit nervous. In any case, if the remnants of city council do vote in favor of the Jamison lease, I think that is only the beginning of the story. We might see a flurry of legal and political challenges that will tie things up indefinitely. The first delay will likely be a petition to put the deal to a referendum. If that is successful, then the deal will be in limbo until the referendum. Meanwhile, I don't think that a legal challenge based on the gift clause is unlikely.

Jamison and the NHL had their opportunity to push a deal like this through 10 or 12 months ago. But because of the delays in lining up investors I think that chance has passed. They either have to come up with a real compromise for Glendale or I think that a local deal won't be completed.

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11-14-2012, 09:33 PM
  #671
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Ken Jones brought up a very valid point in regards to Joyce Clarke, he stated that she only received 40% of her districts vote and that it was a condemnation of her stance on the Coyotes. How in good conscience could she even vote on this issue Nov 27th knowing full well that her opinion is not the expressed view of her constituents.
Again, one has nothing to do with the other. He is hijacking her not having support in the first place, even before things heated up.

Mr. Jones is in fantasy land.

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11-14-2012, 09:43 PM
  #672
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But she needs Knaack to follow her into the dark alley, and Knaack might be getting a bit nervous. In any case, if the remnants of city council do vote in favor of the Jamison lease, I think that is only the beginning of the story. We might see a flurry of legal and political challenges that will tie things up indefinitely. The first delay will likely be a petition to put the deal to a referendum. If that is successful, then the deal will be in limbo until the referendum. Meanwhile, I don't think that a legal challenge based on the gift clause is unlikely.

Jamison and the NHL had their opportunity to push a deal like this through 10 or 12 months ago. But because of the delays in lining up investors I think that chance has passed. They either have to come up with a real compromise for Glendale or I think that a local deal won't be completed.
My question for all the legal folks here is what happens if the AMF is signed by CoG and then there are legal challenges? Is the contract still in effect while the cases are settled, or is it suspended until a resolution?

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11-14-2012, 10:01 PM
  #673
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My question for all the legal folks here is what happens if the AMF is signed by CoG and then there are legal challenges? Is the contract still in effect while the cases are settled, or is it suspended until a resolution?
If the past is any indication (considering the brouhaha over the Hulsizer deal), I think that if the GWI or another group challenges the lease in court, the NHL will not complete a sale to the "Team Owner" until the court case is settled. I hold this opinion because when the GWI was threatening to challenge the legality of the Hulsizer deal, Bettman went into snarl mode (along with the COG) to try to get the GWI to back off. It all became a moot point with Hulsizer, but at the time if felt like the NHL wanted the GWI to back off so that they would have clear sailing.

So, I think that if the GWI takes this to court, the tripartite agreement between Glendale, the "Arena Manager" and the "Team Owner" will go on ice, perhaps for good. Similarly, if a petition campaign is mounted and is successful in forcing a referendum, my guess is that the NHL will hold off on selling to the "Team Owner".

For both of these reasons, I don't see a clear path to finalizing and signing the Jamison lease agreement unless the legal and political opposition is neutralized a priori. That would take a renegotiation of the fundamentals of the deal, which would have to include a substantial drop in the team sale price and a substantial reduction in the AMF. I think that this is eminently achievable with the incoming mayor and council, but would require the NHL to make the financial commitment and for Jamison and the "Team Owner" to take more responsibility and risk with respect to the future financial fortunes of the Coyotes.

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11-14-2012, 10:14 PM
  #674
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If the past is any indication (considering the brouhaha over the Hulsizer deal), I think that if the GWI or another group challenges the lease in court, the NHL will not complete a sale to the "Team Owner" until the court case is settled. I hold this opinion because when the GWI was threatening to challenge the legality of the Hulsizer deal, Bettman went into snarl mode (along with the COG) to try to get the GWI to back off. It all became a moot point with Hulsizer, but at the time if felt like the NHL wanted the GWI to back off so that they would have clear sailing.

So, I think that if the GWI takes this to court, the tripartite agreement between Glendale, the "Arena Manager" and the "Team Owner" will go on ice, perhaps for good. Similarly, if a petition campaign is mounted and is successful in forcing a referendum, my guess is that the NHL will hold off on selling to the "Team Owner".

For both of these reasons, I don't see a clear path to finalizing and signing the Jamison lease agreement unless the legal and political opposition is neutralized a priori. That would take a renegotiation of the fundamentals of the deal, which would have to include a substantial drop in the team sale price and a substantial reduction in the AMF. I think that this is eminently achievable with the incoming mayor and council, but would require the NHL to make the financial commitment and for Jamison and the "Team Owner" to take more responsibility and risk with respect to the future financial fortunes of the Coyotes.
Makes sense. Don't know what this board would do without guys like you and CF, among others. Thanks!

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11-14-2012, 10:15 PM
  #675
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Again, one has nothing to do with the other. He is hijacking her not having support in the first place, even before things heated up.

Mr. Jones is in fantasy land.
Sorry, I think that you will loose your illusions in the next weeks... I don't like your lack of respect for that old man.

He might look curious, old, walking with a cane, difficulties to talk, but what he said yesterday was right I think.

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