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Off-season Madness the 3rd: Jeffrey Loria taketh and Jeffrey Loria giveth away

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11-14-2012, 06:11 PM
  #826
Dark Knight
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"There are so many teams that are interested in Josh Johnson that if the Yankees or Texas or some of these teams looking for a frontline starter wanted to give up a tonne, it would seem like it would be against the way that Alex normally does business to not listen and make a trade if he could acquire a bunch of top prospects for one of the players in this deal," said Sosnick.
This is pretty unprofessional of Sosnick to even talk about the prospects of Johnson possibly being traded when he's not even officially dealt in the first place and name teams like Texas and New York as well. I'm sure there has to be some prior thought process prior to him saying this.

I would never trade him to New York. Texas does have great talent but they aren't getting Johnson unless they overpay a ton.

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11-14-2012, 06:11 PM
  #827
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Originally Posted by weems View Post
Do you think we'll be able to sign a pitcher or Johnsons quality and stuff in free agency?

Hey if the Jays make the playoffs this season then sure it lessens the blow but still Johnson is such a massive part of the trade and I bet he was the starting point to all trade discussions and it eventually escalated.
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Originally Posted by weems View Post
I've seen 3 prominent posters defend him walking in the last 20 minutes.
I'm not defending him walking. However, the situation isn't going to be a travesty as you're making it out to be. FA is an option next year, and we still have a loaded farm system if another trade is required.

You're taking a risk for one year yes. But isn't this the type of risk everyone has been clamoring for all these years? Now that it's actually done, you're chicken little all of a sudden.

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Old
11-14-2012, 06:12 PM
  #828
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Sorry but recouping one compensation pick doesnt excite me. Johnson is the key to the deal and basically the reason we took on Reyes and Buerhles contracts. To give up all the young talent and lock into the money longterm we did it would be extremely disappointing if he just walked. If he doesnt want to sign a extension when presented then we should deal him.
You make it sound like Reyes and Beurhles and have little to no value. They have great value themselves alone, even if JJ walks, trade would become a wash, barring Nicolino being the next Sheilds. Hecchevaria will most likey not be an multiple season all star. Marisnick I don't know a lot about, but prospects are just that, prospects. I'll take major league talent over the small chance of possibly having a major league talent in many years. And it's not like we gutted the farm, the guys we gave up were redundant and expendable. Even if we only get one year out of JJ, signs point to it being a solid year with a very god chance of making the playoffs. And the money we save on JJ, will be available to sign another starting pitcher.

Side note but I see it with baseball the most, even with no salary cap, fans are much to critical of contracts amounts, team budgets, etc.

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Old
11-14-2012, 06:13 PM
  #829
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Originally Posted by New Liskeard View Post
Nothing like a little chicken little and dramatics in the midst of one of the most significant transactions in Blue Jay history. I guess AA should have veto'd the trade with the chance that he may not re-sign? Purely ridiculous. When you have the chance to aquire a player of his talent you do it, if he leaves the Jays get a comp pick, and he may even sign here.

On the comments of Mccown; Bob is actually a very nice guy to meet in person, and is very well connected with various baseball executives.
I have actually liked this deal from the start. I was/am perfectly fine with the risk and what was given up but for me if Johnson does bolt it totally changes the dynamics of this trade. I was moreso arguing why it all the sudden seems alright for some people if he just walks. I find it hard to believe that if Johnson does walk we would be able to aquire a pitcher thats as talented with his upside.

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Old
11-14-2012, 06:15 PM
  #830
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Originally Posted by weems View Post
I have actually liked this deal from the start. I was/am perfectly fine with the risk and what was given up but for me if Johnson does bolt it totally changes the dynamics of this trade. I was moreso arguing why it all the sudden seems alright for some people if he just walks. I find it hard to believe that if Johnson does walk we would be able to aquire a pitcher thats as talented with his upside.
You are correct. If Johnson bolts at the end of the year the deal goes from a lopsided deal to a more fair deal. However with how our rotation has been the past few years I am more then willing to risk losing him if it means we have 1 season of a legit ace where we have an exclusive window to negotiate an extension with.

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Old
11-14-2012, 06:15 PM
  #831
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I'm not defending him walking. However, the situation isn't going to be a travesty as you're making it out to be. FA is an option next year, and we still have a loaded farm system if another trade is required.

You're taking a risk for one year yes. But isn't this the type of risk everyone has been clamoring for all these years? Now that it's actually done, you're chicken little all of a sudden.
You originally said that even if Johnson walks its still a "fantastic" deal and I simply called you out for that.

Read any of my posts from yesterday. I was fully behind this trade and the risk involved, but my opinion of it will change if Johnson walks and we dont get a single thing for him.

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Old
11-14-2012, 06:16 PM
  #832
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Anyone else here the guy who called into Prime Time Sports and asked Bob if AA could be the Leafs GM as well as the Jays GM?

He was 100% serious

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11-14-2012, 06:17 PM
  #833
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Originally Posted by ALine View Post
You make it sound like Reyes and Beurhles and have little to no value. They have great value themselves alone, even if JJ walks, trade would become a wash, barring Nicolino being the next Sheilds. Hecchevaria will most likey not be an multiple season all star. Marisnick I don't know a lot about, but prospects are just that, prospects. I'll take major league talent over the small chance of possibly having a major league talent in many years. And it's not like we gutted the farm, the guys we gave up were redundant and expendable. Even if we only get one year out of JJ, signs point to it being a solid year with a very god chance of making the playoffs. And the money we save on JJ, will be available to sign another starting pitcher.

Side note but I see it with baseball the most, even with no salary cap, fans are much to critical of contracts amounts, team budgets, etc.
You say that even if JJ walks this trade will be a wash but then go on to say you dont know much about Marisnick?

Marisnick is the best prospect we gave up in this deal. No offense but why should I take you seriously when your trying to break down a big trade and dont even have a idea about the best young talent we gave up?

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Old
11-14-2012, 06:21 PM
  #834
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Originally Posted by weems View Post
Just yesterday when the trade breaks everyone is saying that locking up Johnson is essential and key. Now his agent comes out today and says some suspicious things and everyone is all the sudden cool with him just walking for nothing at the end of the year because we would get a compensation pick and 13 million comes off the books?
Don't forget all people ever talked about is getting a guy with cost control and now all of a sudden it doesn't matter they gave up prospects for a 1 year rental. A compensation pick would have no bearing on this franchise for 5 years and many of the core players would be done by that time. Now is the time in the next 2 maybe 3 years the window is open.

I agree they need to talk to JJ and find out what his price is lets see if AA can pull one of his patented team friendly deals on a premier player who is going to be an FA. If AA can pull it off then congrats if not you maybe look to move him right now and fill a hole. I don't see AA getting one of his team friendly deal on this player as they know the market place for pitchers is huge right now and with more TV money coming in he would get more on the open market.

Ari is said to be looking for a top of the rotation starter and that could be a JJ and getting Upton back would be very good obviously things would be added both ways.

You still have FA season to sign say Anibal Sanchez and the rotation is probably just as strong.

The best player in this deal is Reyes but the Jays main reason for the deal was JJ and Burlehe. If you don't sign JJ it looks less pretty of a deal.

To be getting JJ signed is the first priority now and if the numbers don't match up to the budget set out by the ball club then you move him for a couple of players.


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Old
11-14-2012, 06:24 PM
  #835
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Originally Posted by ryno23 View Post
I agree they need to talk to JJ and find out what his price is lets see if AA can pull one of his patented team friendly deals on a premier player who is going to be an FA. If AA can pull it off then congrats if not you maybe look to move him right now and fill a hole. I don't see AA getting one of his team friendly deal on this player as they know the market place for pitchers is huge right now and with more TV money coming in he would get more on the open market.

Ari is said to be looking for a top of the rotation starter and that could be a JJ and getting Upton back would be very good.

You still have FA season to sign say Anibal Sanchez and the rotation is probably just as strong.

The best player in this deal is Reyes but the Jays main reason for the deal was JJ and Burlehe. If you don't sign JJ it looks less pretty of a deal.

To be getting JJ signed is the first priority now and if the numbers don't match up to the budget set out by the ballclub then you move him for a couple of players
Exactly. Johnson is the player from this trade that we need most going forward.

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Old
11-14-2012, 06:25 PM
  #836
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You originally said that even if Johnson walks its still a "fantastic" deal and I simply called you out for that.
3-4 years of solid production from an all-star shortstop and a durable 200 innings starter along with the assortment of 'role' guys like Bonafacio and Buck if he remains jays property. It's still a fantastic deal yes. If we differ on opinion, so be it.

Quote:
Read any of my posts from yesterday. I was fully behind this trade and the risk involved, but my opinion of it will change if Johnson walks and we dont get a single thing for him.
Ofcourse it would change, you're losing an ace caliber pitcher. Any team would be effected by that. We are getting 1 year of JJ. Who knows what will happen during the course of the season but it's worth it in my eyes even if he walks. Who knows, maybe he likes the team, and the city and signs an extension.

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Old
11-14-2012, 06:26 PM
  #837
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Originally Posted by weems View Post
Do you think we'll be able to sign a pitcher or Johnsons quality and stuff in free agency?

Hey if the Jays make the playoffs this season then sure it lessens the blow but still Johnson is such a massive part of the trade and I bet he was the starting point to all trade discussions and it eventually escalated.
Maybe, maybe not. Garza is a FA next season so there is him. Not as good as Johnson but doesn't have the same durability concerns. And I think we could re-sign Johnson. I mean Jays just made this huge commitment to become legit contenders, I think they will try their best to sign him -- no sure thing of course.

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This is pretty unprofessional of Sosnick to even talk about the prospects of Johnson possibly being traded when he's not even officially dealt in the first place and name teams like Texas and New York as well. I'm sure there has to be some prior thought process prior to him saying this.

I would never trade him to New York. Texas does have great talent but they aren't getting Johnson unless they overpay a ton.
I don't think he meant it like that. Its just, maybe he isn't used to seeing AA doing this and thinks they may still be a re-building club. Maybe its something he shouldn't have said but I don't think its a big deal. You usually expect a bigger name team like the Red Sox or Yankees to make these moves.

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11-14-2012, 06:26 PM
  #838
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[QUOTE=weems;55770971]So you think we should just let Johnson walk after this season?
If you dont want to resign Johnson why not deal him at the deadline for a package of nice prospects?[/QUOTE]

Not suprising, but another short sighted comment. I guess the goal is to collect prospects and not make the playoffs or win the world series?

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11-14-2012, 06:27 PM
  #839
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Don't forget all people ever talked about is getting a guy with cost control and now all of a sudden it doesn't matter they gave up prospects for a 1 year rental.

I agree they need to talk to JJ and find out what his price is lets see if AA can pull one of his patented team friendly deals on a premier player who is going to be an FA. If AA can pull it off then congrats if not you maybe look to move him right now and fill a hole. I don't see AA getting one of his team friendly deal on this player as they know the market place for pitchers is huge right now and with more TV money coming in he would get more on the open market.

Ari is said to be looking for a top of the rotation starter and that could be a JJ and getting Upton back would be very good obviously things would be added both ways.

You still have FA season to sign say Anibal Sanchez and the rotation is probably just as strong.

The best player in this deal is Reyes but the Jays main reason for the deal was JJ and Burlehe. If you don't sign JJ it looks less pretty of a deal.

To be getting JJ signed is the first priority now and if the numbers don't match up to the budget set out by the ball club then you move him for a couple of players.
You've got to be kidding.

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Old
11-14-2012, 06:28 PM
  #840
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Anibal Sanchez reportedly wants 5 years 90 Million. Forget him.

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Old
11-14-2012, 06:29 PM
  #841
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I still think we are getting Josh Hamilton and Zack Greinke or Marcum as well. The Jays have the richest ownership in all of baseball, why not?

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11-14-2012, 06:30 PM
  #842
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I still think we are getting Josh Hamilton and Zack Greinke or Marcum as well. The Jays have the richest ownership in all of baseball, why not?
No chance

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Old
11-14-2012, 06:32 PM
  #843
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[QUOTE=New Liskeard;55771687]
Quote:
Originally Posted by weems View Post
So you think we should just let Johnson walk after this season?
If you dont want to resign Johnson why not deal him at the deadline for a package of nice prospects?[/QUOTE]

Not suprising, but another short sighted comment. I guess the goal is to collect prospects and not make the playoffs or win the world series?
How is me thinking of the longterm picture of Johnson bolting and not really getting anything "shortsighted"? Its actually the total opposite. I want this team to either sign him longterm or if hes not interested trade him before the season starts or at the deadline. If this team is strongly in first place or right atop the standing then I would reconsider but I dont see how me proposing dealing Johnson if he doesnt want to be here longterm is shortsighted.

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11-14-2012, 06:34 PM
  #844
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You've got to be kidding.
What is your take. I might have missed your post all I say was a rebuttal but no effort to provide your point of view.

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11-14-2012, 06:39 PM
  #845
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An agent being THAT vocal THAT soon seems a little off kilter, and talking to the press about the GM's approach seems a bit weird too. Doesn't give a great vibe. Talking already about maybe signing the richest deal for a pitcher? Eek.

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11-14-2012, 06:41 PM
  #846
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An agent being THAT vocal THAT soon seems a little off kilter, and talking to the press about the GM's approach seems a bit weird too. Doesn't give a great vibe. Talking already about maybe signing the richest deal for a pitcher? Eek.
He's an agent, are you surprised?

I think it's a little premature to analyze signing him.

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11-14-2012, 06:43 PM
  #847
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I didn't see it posted recently, but if it was, just ignore this.

Apparently Miami is kicking in 8m not the reported 4m yesterday. Not that it makes a large difference but it's still a little bit back in the pocket.
I read it as at least 8 million. It could even be more.

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11-14-2012, 06:43 PM
  #848
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What is your take. I might have missed your post all I say was a rebuttal but no effort to provide your point of view.
Your post read, to me, like you thought Anibal Sanchez was equivalent in terms of pitching ability to Josh Johnson.

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11-14-2012, 06:45 PM
  #849
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I still think we are getting Josh Hamilton and Zack Greinke or Marcum as well. The Jays have the richest ownership in all of baseball, why not?
As much as we would all love that it isn't gonna happen.

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11-14-2012, 06:48 PM
  #850
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You say that even if JJ walks this trade will be a wash but then go on to say you dont know much about Marisnick?

Marisnick is the best prospect we gave up in this deal. No offense but why should I take you seriously when your trying to break down a big trade and dont even have a idea about the best young talent we gave up?
Because its a full time job to follow every prospect in the system. I'm a blue jays fan and and am interested in what the blue jays are doing. When these young guns start making a push for the majors, that is when I take notice. Prospects are just that, prospects. There are many examples of kids looking great at 20/21 in single or double A but never amount to much in the majors. I'm getting a vibe from you that your one who values prospects higher than proven major league talent, because they still hold that ever so nice sounding Potential.

We still have a top farm system, we retain our prospects that make sense in the timeframe for the BlueJays, in addition to a very veristle lineup and bench, very respectable rotation and a bullpen that is coming together nicely.

No I don't have an extensive, fully self-formed opinions on every single prospect. I didn't say I know nothing, I said I didn't know much. I'm aware he was a top prospect for us, but was very far out from having a shot at the bigs, and even further from realizing his potential, if he ever does. In four or five years when he would be maybe ready for full time major league work, where is the rest of the team? In shambles because we didn't make moves for he now, just sat on our behinds while we wait for prospects who may or may not turn out.


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