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2012-13 Lockout Discussion Part VI: The "What Comes Before Square One?" Edition

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11-14-2012, 07:19 PM
  #901
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Originally Posted by RGY View Post
Where is there an overreaction? Where? It's simply reality. You can't have a lockout every 8 years. And you can't lose whole seasons over it. What kind of "league" is that? The answer you're looking for is, there isn't a "league." When you don't have games you are not a league. Yes this is a business but their is no business without the games and the players. You lose another whole season, and the owners that did not support this lockout or at least to the degree that others are, will collect themselves and start a new league. You want to know why? Because those owners lost millions when they didn't want to. The big ticket teams will form their own league and they will get people to show up because they are in "hockey towns."

Like allkurtz was saying above the EPL has only been around since 1992 and it one of, if not, the most popular leagues in the world. You don't think that could happen to hockey in the US? Based on what? You don't think sponsors and tv contracts would surface for a new league? I sure as hell know they would; because it's simple, they would actually make money off of a league that is up and running and not shutdown at a stalemate. At a stalemate because smaller market teams are not as profitable, other than Jeremy Jacobs who is a real jerk off. And those smaller market teams are poorly located and were expanded to by a commissioner who does not have a clue. And no one can fire him because of previous rules that have been put in place which protect him from getting taken off the throne. Bettman's answer for revenue problems is always to lockout the players. This time it is even worse because it was a cba, HE CREATED, that HE has deemed is not working. This is HIS fault. NOT the players. Don't go after the players for wanting their contracts guaranteed because these owners, who have no self control, want an out clause.

It is time for change. The sport is a laughing stock. Players are underpaid for their value as it is compared to other sports. Crosby makes around $8 million a year for an 82 game season. The highest paid players in baseball make around 25-30 million a year over a 162 game season. Cut the MLB number in half and you're at 12-15 million. Now of course hockey isn't as popular as baseball but you don't think guys like crosby shouldn't be making at least $10 million? I do, I really do believe that is fair value. But he doesn't get that playing professional hockey in the NHL. And he's probably not crying over it, but now his salary has to be reduced even further because the owners want more back? It is ridiculous. I don't blame the players. I can't. The single idea that the players can't have their contracts guaranteed is unfathomable. The fact that they have to give back more because the NHL out kicked it's coverage by expanding to warm climate areas that aren't hockey hotbeds is not the players fault. And you could say well the players are giving back for the good of the game to help make smaller market teams more profitable as well as help fellow players keep their jobs. Well those teams shouldn't exist. They shouldn't. And it's all grand that 200 more players have work (thats about 4 teams and their AHL teams) but it thins out the talent pool in the NHL. More 4th line players that shouldn't be in the NHL. Less talent depth on 3rd and 4th lines. I'd rather have had less teams and more talent to watch. More excitement. But because Bettman has dug himself this deep there is no going back now. He is going to protect his babies/pet projects. And unfortunately he has to because how could you shutdown those organizations now? You can't do that to the fans and players of those teams at this point.

You lose another season, this league won't be around anymore. And I hope Dolan is first on board to take the New York Rangers into a new league.
The league isn't going anywhere. They'll be around even if the lockout extends to next season. As I said many times early December should see a resolution to the lockout. I am starting to feel for the players
as I believe Bucky Gleason might have nailed this months ago.

http://www.buffalonews.com/apps/pbcs...120919256/1004

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11-14-2012, 07:35 PM
  #902
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Silent treatment time

Quote:
Now the NHL and the locked-out players' association aren't even talking by phone.

With the lockout about to enter its third month, communications between the fighting sides have come to a halt with no clear sign of what the next step will be or when it will be taken.

"No, we have not communicated today," NHL deputy commissioner Bill Daly told The Associated Press on Wednesday in an email. "No meetings scheduled, and no plans to meet."
http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/spo...179356481.html

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Brief @NHLPA statement from Steve Fehr, special counsel: “The players remain prepared to resume negotiations at any time.
https://twitter.com/NYDNRangers/stat...69904122388480

Quote:
“The owners had a great CBA the last time if they did it properly. Just don’t frontload the contracts and sign guys to contracts for 10 or 15 years. Don’t make those deals. But they did it to themselves and now they’re looking for something else.”
http://www.csnne.com/hockey-boston-b...21&feedID=3944

The NHL doesn't want a mediator

Quote:
Monday, union special counsel Steve Fehr said the players would be interested in bringing in an impartial third party, but that the owners weren't very receptive. A professional mediator, or arbitrator, might be able to break what seems to have become another stalemate.

Although there has been contact between the NHL and the union, there have not been formal talks since Sunday, and those talks haven't included the core economic issues since Friday. As of Tuesday evening, no bargaining sessions were scheduled.

Adams suggested that there's a reason the union is interested in mediation, while the NHL isn't so much.

"I think we would welcome it because I think if you look at the situation objectively, there's no question we're making all the concessions," he said. "I wouldn't be afraid of it, but I'm not holding my breath that's going to happen."
Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/...#ixzz2CFLtig7i

Katie Strang spoke to a mediator who helped the NFL get a deal

Quote:
Judge Arthur Boylan may have led mediation between the National Football League and NFL Players Association during last year’s lockout, but the Minnesota-based chief federal magistrate finds the current NHL work stoppage hitting closer to home.

A Chicago Blackhawks fan from youth who has since converted to a supporter of his hometown Minnesota Wild -- a season-ticket holder since the team’s inception -- Boylan just received his refund for this weekend’s game against the Detroit Red Wings, among the several hundred matches canceled in the wake of the NHL lockout. He is going to watch the Wild’s farm team, the Houston Aeros, take on the Rockford IceHogs at the Xcel Energy Center on Sunday instead.

Before the lockout began, Boylan didn’t know how much time he devoted to watching the sport. Now, he’s wondering why he even has cable.

"I’d volunteer to do it for free," Boylan said in a telephone interview with ESPNNewYork.com. "I’d love to get this thing done."
http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/i...k-at-cba-talks

The NBA had a mediator. George Cohen. 3 lockout Gary doesn't want anyone trying to end this mess.

Quote:
Bettman hasn't exactly shown distinguished leadership, but there are a lot of people concerned about the toll this is taking on his health.
http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/opin...contracts.html

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11-14-2012, 07:38 PM
  #903
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Of course the NHL doesn't want a mediator, then they lose control over continuing to try to strong arm the NHLPA with their demands.

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11-14-2012, 07:42 PM
  #904
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Just asking, but wonder how much extra $ Mark Recchi earned because of Goodenow's work in 94/95 lockout?
I wonder if it's more than the $5,440,000 that Goodenow's work cost him in the 2004/05 lockout.

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11-14-2012, 07:47 PM
  #905
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Originally Posted by Canon1990 View Post
Of course the NHL doesn't want a mediator, then they lose control over continuing to try to strong arm the NHLPA with their demands.
A mediator doesn't have any power to enforce decisions. They wouldn't be giving up any control.

Bill Daly says they hadn't been approached for mediation: ( here and here):

Quote:
Bill Daly's reax to Steve Fehr saying NHLPA is open to mediation: "They haven't approached us about it but if they did, certainly..." Cont

.... it's something we'd take back to our group and consider."

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11-14-2012, 08:22 PM
  #906
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I can't take this anymore. I need rangers hockey Sams voice and the excitement of a GDT!!!!

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11-14-2012, 08:25 PM
  #907
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If there is a formal offer for mediation than I have to think the NHL will accept it. At that point the moderates and the James Dolan's of the league will have to step up and bring some sensibility back to these proceedings. Shooting down mediation would really be ridiculous.

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11-14-2012, 08:27 PM
  #908
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Getting down to crunch time.

Chris Botta ‏@ChrisBottaNHL
Source: if there isn't a deal in place in next 7days, NHL will cancel games thru Dec. 15. Next cancellation could be the season.

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11-14-2012, 08:37 PM
  #909
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Originally Posted by NYRFAN218 View Post
Getting down to crunch time.

Chris Botta ‏@ChrisBottaNHL
Source: if there isn't a deal in place in next 7days, NHL will cancel games thru Dec. 15. Next cancellation could be the season.
Really, the main thing with the contract issues is to make sure there are no front loading deals a la Hossa or Kovalchuk. Why is this such a big issue?

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11-14-2012, 08:40 PM
  #910
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Originally Posted by Jabroni1994 View Post
Really, the main thing with the contract issues is to make sure there are no front loading deals a la Hossa or Kovalchuk. Why is this such a big issue?
there's also a delinked salary cap, ELC, UFA eligibility, arbitration, contract term length too. thats quite a bit of issues.

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11-14-2012, 08:42 PM
  #911
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Really, the main thing with the contract issues is to make sure there are no front loading deals a la Hossa or Kovalchuk. Why is this such a big issue?
I think that's all the NHL cares about. Once the NHL gets its make whole/50-50, they'll budge on everything else. Issue is PA won't move off their delinked proposals and guaranteed share. Once the HRR split and make whole get settled, I think everything will fall into place.


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11-14-2012, 08:47 PM
  #912
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Originally Posted by NYRFAN218 View Post
I think that's all the NHL cares about. Once the NHL gets its make whole/500, they'll budge on everything else. Issue is PA won't move off their delinked proposals and guaranteed share. Once the HRR split and make whole get settled, I think everything will fall into place.
the frustrating thing is there are elements from both sides ideologies that will get this deal done if they'd be willing to compromise.

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11-14-2012, 08:50 PM
  #913
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Chris Botta ‏@ChrisBottaNHL
Also, optimism around team offices almost nil. Drop-dead date arriving soon. I'm still hopeful for a Dec (2012) start. #NHL

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11-14-2012, 08:52 PM
  #914
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the frustrating thing is there are elements from both sides ideologies that will get this deal done if they'd be willing to compromise.
Yep. Fehr is definitely holding out until the drop dead date to try and get as much as he can from the NHL. A lot of people have been speculating that the PA is thinking mid December and I don't think the NHL is gonna give anymore until the PA moves off its stance of their guaranteed share. Next couple of weeks should be interesting. I said along that they'd reach a deal in mid December and they'd start the season January 1st with the Winter Classic. Obviously the last part is impossible now but I'm gonna stick with those dates still.

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11-14-2012, 08:56 PM
  #915
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Originally Posted by NYRFAN218 View Post
Chris Botta ‏@ChrisBottaNHL
Also, optimism around team offices almost nil. Drop-dead date arriving soon. I'm still hopeful for a Dec (2012) start. #NHL
The fact that he felt the need to specify the year isn't a good sign

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11-14-2012, 09:11 PM
  #916
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Originally Posted by NYRFAN218 View Post
I think that's all the NHL cares about. Once the NHL gets its make whole/50-50, they'll budge on everything else. Issue is PA won't move off their delinked proposals and guaranteed share. Once the HRR split and make whole get settled, I think everything will fall into place.
Nothing I've read indicates that the players are still on about delinking

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11-14-2012, 09:20 PM
  #917
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Nothing I've read indicates that the players are still on about delinking
everything I have indicates they are. if they proposed linkage, this thing is overwith.

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11-14-2012, 09:29 PM
  #918
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everything I have indicates they are. if they proposed linkage, this thing is overwith.
You're confused. Its not 2004 anymore.

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11-14-2012, 10:03 PM
  #919
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Originally Posted by -31- View Post
A mediator doesn't have any power to enforce decisions. They wouldn't be giving up any control.

Bill Daly says they hadn't been approached for mediation: ( here and here):
This is true. The mediator can't enforce anything. However, with this day in age of social media, if anything leaks out exposing one side if the negotiations aren't progressing then talks could start to speed up.

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11-14-2012, 10:10 PM
  #920
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everything I have indicates they are. if they proposed linkage, this thing is overwith.
Keeping the same system they have right now would be linkage. It's about percentage, not linkage.

And at this point, it's not even about what the percentage will be, but how they're going to get there.

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11-14-2012, 10:28 PM
  #921
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Keeping the same system they have right now would be linkage. It's about percentage, not linkage.

And at this point, it's not even about what the percentage will be, but how they're going to get there.
To be clear, all the players' proposals that we are aware of did not work the way the current system does - they all required fixed costs for the players.

Having said that, it's not exactly clear what happened in the sessions last week. Some reports still seem to indicate that they still want their $1.8 - $1.9 Bn in hard dollars and to calculate splits of revenue increases above that floor; others seem to indicate that they're willing to contemplate a % of revenues.

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11-14-2012, 10:44 PM
  #922
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To be clear, all the players' proposals that we are aware of did not work the way the current system does - they all required fixed costs for the players.

Having said that, it's not exactly clear what happened in the sessions last week. Some reports still seem to indicate that they still want their $1.8 - $1.9 Bn in hard dollars and to calculate splits of revenue increases above that floor; others seem to indicate that they're willing to contemplate a % of revenues.
This is the issue when I mean linkage. They want their fixed share until revenues grow to make their share 50%. That won't be 50/50 until year 3 at the earliest.

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11-14-2012, 10:49 PM
  #923
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This is the issue when I mean linkage. They want their fixed share until revenues grow to make their share 50%. That won't be 50/50 until year 3 at the earliest.
Which is a very, very far cry from delinking the cap. Using that terminology would get you a "mostly false" rating on Politifact Like I said, it's not a difference in what the percentage will be, but rather how and when we are getting there.

Honestly, I think if the NHL said tomorrow that they'll guarantee to pay the players out on the value of the current deals over some seemingly ridiculous amount of time, like 20 years, if the players agree to come down to 50% right away, we'd have an agreement on split immediately. Even if it meant 15% escrow rates up front.

Also, BRF, I think that the negotiations last week were without formal, broad proposals. Rather, they were small, specific ideas that were being tabled and discussed.

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11-14-2012, 11:39 PM
  #924
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Am I just really exhausted or did someone earlier say that Crosby was underpaid because baseball players make 2 & 3 times more than he does?

My cranky mind is thinking that baseball players are way overpaid and that comparison is outlandish.

I need sleep.

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11-14-2012, 11:53 PM
  #925
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This is the issue when I mean linkage. They want their fixed share until revenues grow to make their share 50%. That won't be 50/50 until year 3 at the earliest.
Yeah, thats a bit disingenuous. One season of "delinked" salaries is a far cry from the stance you are projecting onto the players. And the league essentially agreed to fund the "make whole", so your position that the delinkage is holding up a deal is off.

One issue is players are looking for two seasons of guaranteed money. The league is kn board for one... hence the $200m and $600m discrepency. One season vs two with interest and I believe 5% growth.

The other issue, according to just about everyone including Daly and Fehr, is contractual. The honest to god sticking point is unclear, but PA stance is the league wants controls beyond 5% variance. League says they have conceded enough... "no more give and take."

At this point, the only way to salvage would be moderates on both side circumventing leadership and working out a cooperative deal. There is no way games should have been lost. Bettman crapped on the NBA CBA. That should have been our template: 50% split, two season escrow cap, contract limit (5% variance), revenue sharing increase. League gets the two big issues, players win on rev sharing and keep inked deals. Players lose overall... significantly. How are they getting squeezed beyond that?

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