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Sergei Fedorov

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Old
11-14-2012, 06:30 PM
  #326
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Let's see Stanley Cup finals scoring:

Fedorov: (8g,11a) 19 pts/17 games

Yzerman: (6g,7a) 13 pts/17 games

More impressive - in the 1995 Stanely Cups Finals where Don Cherry blamed Feds : he had (3g,2a) in 4 game sweep - TOTAL goals scored by Detroit in the Finals : 7

That's 70% production value, give it a rest already guys

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11-14-2012, 07:07 PM
  #327
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I think Livewell68 has already addressed your points on international play.

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11-14-2012, 07:20 PM
  #328
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KingForsberg View Post
m still not quite sure what your point is. You asked me to imagine Yzerman going to Russia to play with Fedorov and if I think he would be a leader still. I said yes he would because he was a better leader than Fedorov and a better player. Fedorov may have been slightly better than Yzerman at times when they were together but that could be because Yzerman had already had his best seasons while Fedorov was in his prime.
And yet the issue has never been to rank Yzerman vs Fedorov "overall". I challenged the notion that the two should be as far apart on a rankings list as some have put forth, and I guess I still haven't really seen that defended.

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Originally Posted by KingForsberg View Post
Why would you move your "elite" forward who is having his second best season to a defensive position? So one person said Fedorov could win a Norris. We've seen many GMs say things that aren't true. Dandenault was just one of many payers to play forward and defense. My point is that Fedorov didn't revolutionize the idea and wasn't some pioneer.
He didn't have to revolutionize anything. Not that many people actually get asked to play both positions, and fewer get unanimous acclaim for how smoothly and effectively they transition. Everyone noticed.


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Originally Posted by KingForsberg View Post
You're right you didn't claim that. I asked you a question which you refuse to answer. Was Scott Hartnell better than Claude Giroux on offense last year? Or answer this. Was Kurri better than Gretzky in the seasons he scored more goals?
Those aren't "questions", btw. They're straw men.

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Originally Posted by KingForsberg View Post
I prefer points because it accounts for both sides of offense. Why do you not value assists as much as goals? If you just look at goals it completely ignores the other half of offense. Why should playmakers be punished? It's ultimately subjective but it looks like your just choosing that few to make Fedorov look better on offense than Forsberg which just isn't true.
Well cool. That's a totally valid and supportable opinion, and I've never discredited it. When I suggest the possibility (nay, probability) that some might value patterned goal scorers over guys with similar overall points, you're the one trying to turn this back on me saying I don't believe in letting points speak for themselves - or that I'm "trying to make Fedorov look better"? You don't think Fedorov "looked better" on offense, and that's fine. I think he had the skill set best suited between the two to be effective in any era, with any linemates, in any role, and that's part of why I'd pick AND rank him over Forsberg. I usually take the guy who consistently scores more goals on the way to similar point totals.

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Originally Posted by KingForsberg View Post
Now you try to insult me. How nice. Since you refuse to show me how Fedorov was elite for long time, at least tell me your definition of elite offense. If its top ten in goals or points Fedorov doesn't really have good numbers in either regard. So please show KingForsberg how Fedorov was ELITE for a LONG time. It should be easy if its already been said in the thread.
Well, given that we're talking about a comparison with Forsberg, who played 70+ games in back-to-back seasons only twice in his career, and essentially retired at age 34, I totally challenge you to define "long time", let alone "elite", and then hold both players to fair measure. I've already laid out my case for Fedorov at this point. I even used the word "elite" upwards of a dozen times trying to make it easy for you. Personal request: please stop referring to yourself in the third person, lol. It'll just get awkward.

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Old
11-14-2012, 07:28 PM
  #329
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KingForsberg View Post
I think Livewell68 has already addressed your points on international play.
Who cares. 20 years of best on best plays trumps NHL, the way she goes

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11-14-2012, 08:04 PM
  #330
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Originally Posted by DisgruntledGoat View Post
He's one of the most overrated players on HFBoards.

Also, the amount of time he actually spent playing as defenseman is wildly exaggerated. Youd think he was Red Kelly if you read some posts.
from 2008:
Quote:
Defence isn't entirely new for Fedorov. He spent a bit of time there with each of his three previous NHL teams - Detroit, Anaheim and Columbus. Red Wings coach Scotty Bowman even paired the Russian with Hall of Fame defenceman Larry Murphy during one post-season, Fedorov recalled.
parts of 3 seasons

http://www.thehockeynews.com/article...-practice.html

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11-14-2012, 08:12 PM
  #331
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
And yet the issue has never been to rank Yzerman vs Fedorov "overall". I challenged the notion that the two should be as far apart on a rankings list as some have put forth, and I guess I still haven't really seen that defended.
Where would you rank them? I really don't think others rankings are that far apart.

Quote:
He didn't have to revolutionize anything. Not that many people actually get asked to play both positions, and fewer get unanimous acclaim for how smoothly and effectively they transition. Everyone noticed.
Yes actually a lot of players have been asked to play both positions. It's not something that should make Fedorovs lack of elite offense disappear.


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Those aren't "questions", btw. They're straw men.
You're arguing semantics at this point. If you value goals over points then fine so be it. But at least be able to defend it.


Quote:
Well cool. That's a totally valid and supportable opinion, and I've never discredited it. When I suggest the possibility (nay, probability) that some might value patterned goal scorers over guys with similar overall points, you're the one trying to turn this back on me saying I don't believe in letting points speak for themselves - or that I'm "trying to make Fedorov look better"? You don't think Fedorov "looked better" on offense, and that's fine. I think he had the skill set best suited between the two to be effective in any era, with any linemates, in any role, and that's part of why I'd pick AND rank him over Forsberg. I usually take the guy who consistently scores more goals on the way to similar point totals.
The problem is that Forsberg and Fedorov didn't have similar point totals of point finishes. Forsberg was much better on in that regard. That is my point.



Quote:
Well, given that we're talking about a comparison with Forsberg, who played 70+ games in back-to-back seasons only twice in his career, and essentially retired at age 34, I totally challenge you to define "long time", let alone "elite", and then hold both players to fair measure. I've already laid out my case for Fedorov at this point. I even used the word "elite" upwards of a dozen times trying to make it easy for you. Personal request: please stop referring to yourself in the third person, lol. It'll just get awkward.
You brought up my username so I felt the need to use it. I'm not here to defend Forsberg's longevity. The only reason I bring it up is because he gets criticized for a lack of longevity (which is deserved) but he actually had more elite seasons than Fedorov.

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Old
11-14-2012, 08:13 PM
  #332
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Originally Posted by Stars23 View Post
Who cares. 20 years of best on best plays trumps NHL, the way she goes
Yup the NHL doesn't really matter much when ranking players for you I guess. However since you brought up Stanley cups earlier in that thread, where's Fedorovs Olympic gold? Jagr has one as does Lindros and Sakic. Forsberg has two.

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11-14-2012, 09:15 PM
  #333
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Originally Posted by KingForsberg View Post
Yup the NHL doesn't really matter much when ranking players for you I guess. However since you brought up Stanley cups earlier in that thread, where's Fedorovs Olympic gold? Jagr has one as does Lindros and Sakic. Forsberg has two.
If you want to obsess over a team award by asking the same question when already answered, than good for you

You know Fedorov won the most Prestigious Award in Hockey, the Hart Trophy and a Lindsay and 2xSelke's


Forsberg can have all the team medals he wants, he will still suck at international play against the toughest competition and highest stakes, what more do you want?

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11-14-2012, 09:16 PM
  #334
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Originally Posted by KingForsberg View Post
Yup the NHL doesn't really matter much when ranking players for you I guess. However since you brought up Stanley cups earlier in that thread, where's Fedorovs Olympic gold? Jagr has one as does Lindros and Sakic. Forsberg has two.
Just don't let it stress you. It's easy to make arguments (while not really backing them up) to suite your point of view and then say that very same point of view doesn't matter when someone else shows the weaknesses in that opinion.

First "Stars" said how Fedorov had no one to help him but then I brought up Bure (who was tearing up the 1998 Olympics and Yashin and such) he didn't bother to respond.

At the end of the day we are all entitled to our opinion but the difference between an intelligent conversation and a pointless argument is basically being able to accept failure when it happens. Most of us have learned this, a select few choose to turn in circles and use derogatory language to try and shoot down an argument that is in fact much stronger than theirs.

Fedorov was a great player, so was Forsberg and so was Jagr but Fedorov at his very best is nowhere near the player some are claiming he was.

He's top 50 at best. Forsberg is top 40-35. Jagr is top 15-9.

Both Forsberg and Jagr won more than Fedorov and better than Fedorov on every level, juniors, NHL regular season, Stanley Cups, World Championships, Olympics...

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11-14-2012, 09:17 PM
  #335
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Originally Posted by Stars23 View Post
If you to obsess over a team award by asking the same question when already answered, than good for you

You know Fedorov won the most prestigious award in Hockey, the Hart Trophy and Lindaay and Selke

Forsberg can have all team medals he wants, sucks at international play what more do you want?
Forsberg never sucked at International play. Go watch the 1994 Junior World Championships. Forsberg was a beast Internationally.

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11-14-2012, 09:23 PM
  #336
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Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
Forsberg never sucked at International play. Go watch the 1994 Junior World Championships. Forsberg was a beast Internationally.
Remember how I schooled you guys when you were saying Fedorv had all these superstars all his international competitions and I caught the lies? And proved it

And Bure + Fedorov didn't play with each other in either Olympics (I have all of russia's games) only on in a couple of shifts throughout the tournament, caught another lie lol

International hockey stats over a 20 year span proves Fedorov is better than Forsberg Sakic and Jagr in National play. Period

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11-14-2012, 09:29 PM
  #337
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Teams win medals, players win Awards

You guys can drag about team medals all you want, it shows you guy are trying to overcompensate for Fedorov being better Internationally Jealousy here is crazy lol

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11-14-2012, 09:39 PM
  #338
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Originally Posted by Stars23 View Post
Remember how I schooled you guys when you were saying Fedorv had all these superstars all his international competitions and I caught the lies? And proved it

A shifts throughout the tournament, nd Bure + Fedorov didn't play with each other in either Olympics (I have all of russia's games) only on in a couple ofcaught another lie lol

International hockey stats over a 20 year span proves Fedorov is better than Forsberg Sakic and Jagr in National play. Period
The fact though that Bure was there (who was basically outscoring Fedorov) made it harder for opposing teams to focus their attention on Fedorov. They had guard Bure as well and when you have two great players playing on two different lines then it makes all that much harder to play defense against them. This means that Fedorov never faced the concentracted type of defense as for instance Jagr did.

Jagr was the best player in the world in 1998 and he didn't have the novelty to play with a Bure (or Fedorov) and he was being shadowed and followed and double teamed every time he stepped on the ice.

You didn't school anyone but yourself. You're getting caught up in your own poor arguments.

If you want to talk about individual awards...

Jagr has 5 Art Ross trophies, 3 Pearsons, 1 Hart (6x time Hart finalist).

What has Fedorov won to surpass Jagr?

All your arguments have been proven to be weak.

BTW what did Fedorov win Internationally (individually speaking)? Waiting, waiting?

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11-14-2012, 09:44 PM
  #339
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Originally Posted by Stars23 View Post
Seriously 3-4 guys here who absolutely hate Fedorov and are misconstruing everyone's words and pulling crap from the air, ignoring the serious facts.

Fedorov beat Peter Forsberg, Joe Sakic, Eric Lindors, Jarimor Jagr, etc... In Canada/World Cup GPG and PPG and in the Olympics best play PPG, while playing as a Soviet Defensive forward.

Wayne Gretzky said he thought Feds was the "most talented player ever" and that he was a "Hell of a player" while playing defense.

2- Some stats:

(20-26 years old) - 212g,317a/432 games = (40g/60a) 100 points / 82 games

(27-34 years old) - 219g,271a/556 games = (32g/42a) 74 points / 82 games

Fedorov statistics each season over an 80-84 game average

1990-91 (32g,50a) 82 points/ 80 games
1991-92 (32g,54a) 86 points/ 80 games
1992-93 (39g,61a) 100 points/ 84 games
1993-94 (57g,63a) 123 points/ 84 games
1994-95 (40g,60a) 100 points/ 84 games
1995-96 (41g,72a) 113 points/ 82 games
1996-97 (33g,37a) 70 points/ 82 games
1997-98 - didn't calculate only played 20 games
1998-99 (28g,39a) 67 points/ 82 games
1999-00 (33g,42a) 75 points/ 82 games
2000-01 (35g,40a) 75 points/ 82 games
2001-02 (31g,38a) 69 points/ 82 games (defense)
2002-03 (37g,48a) 85 points/ 82 games
2003-04 (32g,35a) 67 points/ 82 games
So since you guy ignored this you think Fedorov only had one good season? Forsberg only scored 30 once? Lol

Fedorov's career average is 30/82 games - over 20 years.

Fedorov had some pretty amazing years and his playoff value is rated in the top elite class, ever (according to various sports experts)


Last edited by Stars23*: 11-14-2012 at 09:50 PM.
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11-14-2012, 09:49 PM
  #340
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Originally Posted by Stars23 View Post
So since you guy ignored this you think Fedorov only had one good season? Forsberg only scored 20 once? Lol

Fedorov's career average is 30/92 games over 20 years.

Fedorov had some pretty amazing years and his playoff value is rated in the top elite class, ever (according to various sports experts)
Playoffs? You mean those 4 overrated 20 Pts playoffs where he was below PPG in 2 of them and was at PPG in the other. That leaves him with one just good playoff where he was comfortably above PPG.

Jagr in 1992-93, 1995-96, 1999-00 and 2007-08 played at levels in the playoffs that Fedorov never reached. Jagr blows Fedorov out of the water in all facets of individual success.

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11-14-2012, 09:58 PM
  #341
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Originally Posted by Stars23 View Post
Okay I will let you guys be jealous and try to convince yourselfs Feds is not better too funny lol
Jagr has more Art Ross trophies, more Pearsons, more goals, more assists, more points, more points in the playoffs, better PPG in the regular season and playoffs.

You can have your argument that Fedorov played (apparently) better than Jagr Internationally (and I'll give you this argument only because I feel sorry for you for how poor your arguments are) but Jagr played in over 1200 games in the NHL in which he was better than Fedorov including 160 + playoff games.

2 weeks International tournaments have more to do with luck (getting hot at the right time, facing favorable matches...) than it does with who really is the best. Fedorov could have fed on bottom teams all he wants in his career in round robin play Internationally but when it really mattered, Fedorov wasn't as great as Jagr was. Jagr played big in the big games all his career.

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11-14-2012, 09:59 PM
  #342
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I'm not going to pretend like I saw any of them play, but Fedorov has that one season where he gets the Selke and the Hart as a Russian entering the NHL before they were thought to even really care about the SC. As far as I know, Yzerman never got the Hart, and Forsberg got only 1. You gotta give it to Sakic because of all these players he was for the longest time not only consistently offensively superior but also he played like a winner. But I think Fedorov has an argument in there for best peak, and really, you have to give it to players who can win the freaking Selke and the Hart. That's basically unprecedented since Bobby Clarke.
Long story short, I wish I got to see Fedorov play in his prime. Sadly all of my memories of Fedorov are basically of him at his worst. I wish he could have been the "Larionov" on those Washington teams!

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11-14-2012, 10:02 PM
  #343
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I guess we can just ignore Sakic winning an Olympic MVP enroute to a Gold Medal

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11-14-2012, 10:03 PM
  #344
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Jagr basically trumps Fedorov in terms of regular season success and I will defer to others on playoff performance. How do the attitude problems bear on the issue? Both sulked at points in their career, but you never get the feeling that Fedorov was "dying alive"

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11-14-2012, 10:06 PM
  #345
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Originally Posted by KingForsberg View Post
I guess we can just ignore Sakic winning an Olympic MVP enroute to a Gold Medal
Didn't you know though? Fedorov's PPG was better Internationally!

So it doesn't matter.

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11-14-2012, 10:07 PM
  #346
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Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
It just bothers me that some people can lack so much respect for the history of the game and have zero argumentative skills and have to revert to using insults and childish euphemisms when their arguments are shot down.

I give up. I don't want to get banned from this topic or have any warnings so I will quit it with this back and forth nonsense.
I couldn't agree more.

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11-14-2012, 10:10 PM
  #347
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Jagr basically trumps Fedorov in terms of regular season success and I will defer to others on playoff performance. How do the attitude problems bear on the issue? Both sulked at points in their career, but you never get the feeling that Fedorov was "dying alive"
It's not even a debate, except to a few Fedorov supporters. It only became one when someone was comparing international performances, which is just a sliver of the debate IMO.

Is far as Jagr's "dying alive", he had a couple down years with the hapless Caps. If those happen in the O6, he probably still finishes top 5-10 in goals and/or assists, and not much is made of it. As it stands, it's a couple off years (for him) in what will be a 25+ year pro career, so don't see how that should be a major blemish on his career. If the Pens had not been bankrupt, they could have afforded to keep him and still ice a good team around him.

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11-14-2012, 10:14 PM
  #348
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Originally Posted by porknbeans1000 View Post
Jagr basically trumps Fedorov in terms of regular season success and I will defer to others on playoff performance. How do the attitude problems bear on the issue? Both sulked at points in their career, but you never get the feeling that Fedorov was "dying alive"
Jagr did have his issues especially in his last season in Pittsburgh (he still won the Art Ross and was 3rd in goals and 1st in assists that season) and his Washington tenure but despite this, Jagr still continued his streak of 15 straight 30 + goals seasons (tied for NHL record) and 15 straight 70 + Pts seasons (NHL record).

Jagr also did bounce back and had a great run with the Rangers. With Jagr even when he wasn't giving it a 100% effort, you still got more out of him and that was due to his overall physical attributes. He was a great skater, had phenomenal vision, size, freakish strength, legendary stickhandling skills and he could finish his own plays or set up players with the very best of them historically.

Sure Fedorov had better defensive instincts and was a bit faster (there is a Youtube video in the 1994 All-Star game that shows Jagr actually beating Fedorov at the speed contest) but outside of that he had nothing on Jagr.

Jagr could win on talent alone. Fedorov was exceptionally gifted himself but not to the same extent as Jagr.

In terms of pure physical talent, Jagr is probably top 5 all-time along with Orr, Lemieux, Bobby Hull and Bure.

I think Jagr's attitude problems are bit more documented and maybe a bit more exaggerated but it also detered him less than Fedorov. Fedorov's time as an elite player was basically done after 2002-03. Jagr had a 123 Pts and 96 Pts seasons just as recently as 2005-06 and 2006-07.

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11-15-2012, 01:01 AM
  #349
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This thread has run its course.


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