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Does Anybody Here Remember Vera Lynn? (CBA & Lockout Discussion) XXVIII ‎

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Old
11-14-2012, 06:42 PM
  #101
DL44
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HockeyNightInCanada ‏@hockeynight
There is zero communication between sides in NHL labour dispute, with no meetings scheduled, no plans to meet



Goodbye December games.

And you know the funny part... the day after that's announced, someone will bounce back with another significant proposal or bit of news..

Cancel the start of the season - offer 50-50
Last ditch at 82 by Nov 2nd - make whole
Cancel Nov and the Winter Classic - offer to pay for make whole
Cancel December gms - ???

Maybe nothing actually comes this time since Daley said so.. or maybe, the PA finally makes the next move...

I know what I think the next big move needs to be....

Get off of the idea of De-Linkage!

As long as the players keep insisting on that... i have no sympathy for any of them losing another yr of their careers: One yr's worth of points, money and legacy... *poof*


Freudian on HF:
Quote:
Since there seems to be some confusion about NHLPAs proposal and some think it's a 50/50 split they are offering, I thought it would be appropriate to clarify. ...

NHLPA wants a guaranteed $1.91B in collective salary that will grow with 1.75% each year as long as it means the players share of HRR is larger than 50%. When 50% of HRR means a higher total salary for the players, it switches over to a linked system where players get 50/50. ..........

.......

Scenario 2: Revenue increases with 2% each year on average
Year 1: 56,9%
Year 2: 56,8%
Year 3: 56,6%
Year 4: 56,5%
Year 5: 56,4%
Year 6: 56,2%


Scenario 3: Revenue increases with 5% each year on average
Year 1: 55,3%
Year 2: 53,6%
Year 3: 51,9%
Year 4: 50,3%
Year 5: 50,0%
Year 6: 50,0%


Scenario 4: Revenue increases with 7% each year on average
Year 1: 54,3%
Year 2: 51,6%
Year 3: 50,0%
Year 4: 50,0%
Year 5: 50,0%
Year 6: 50,0%

Scary to think somehow Fehr will be able to justify to his players that losing 1.89 billion to fight for a principle point worth just a fraction of what they will lose is worth the battle... and over contracting rights not effecting their actual piece of the pie...

Everything can also be flipped on the owners: how can they be willing to part with their share of the revenues, lay off multiple people, reducing hours and salaries of several others all for few hundred million now when eventually they will get down to 50-50 in the long run anyway?

Well that's much easier to justify from a business aspect for the owners vs emotional aspect seeing the players we love fading, rusting and wasting away a yr of their short careers.


Its joke either way... a funny one too.


I look forward to reading twitter once December is cancelled... this CBA thing has become my own personal hilarious soap opera...
its mind boggling funny hows its gotten to this point. I am very curious to see what would happen if the season actually got cancelled... what would the landscape actually look like over the spring.. the rhetoric, the media, the players speaking out etc etc?? I almost want to see it happen out of curiosity and the entertainment factor..
almost.


Last edited by DL44: 11-14-2012 at 06:50 PM.
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Old
11-14-2012, 06:47 PM
  #102
Stuck in Socal
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Originally Posted by BLONG7 View Post
It's very quiet, very...even the media has gone super quiet, Bobby Mac, Lebrun, Dreger etc I would imagine about 400 guys in the PA are really upset right now...it's way too quiet...
Look at what happened after the October debacle with the "3" proposals getting rejected in 10 minutes. It went silent for two weeks.

I would expect them to talk next week, but with Thanksgiving its just a good excuse to not even "talk".

There will be 1 more final push in December, but it will be unsuccessful.

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Old
11-14-2012, 06:47 PM
  #103
Astoria
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Just out of curiosity, on average, how much money does a team/owner spend on a player over the course of a season (not including salary or bonuses)? I could be wrong, but don't they pay travel expenses (flight, hotel, meals, etc.), trainers, equipment, medical, dieticians, relocation (if necessary), etc.?

Please excuse me if this is a stupid question but it's something I've been wondering and am unable to
locate any data.

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Old
11-14-2012, 06:53 PM
  #104
MacOfNiagara
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Retweeted by Steve Ott. Ironic (Mocking the economic understanding of a group while displaying a poor understanding of economics)




hmm. Cant get the twitter image to work. And cant seem to recall how to delete the post.


Last edited by MacOfNiagara: 11-14-2012 at 07:08 PM. Reason: Thanks HavlatMach9 for the posting help
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Old
11-14-2012, 06:56 PM
  #105
Mr Jiggyfly
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Originally Posted by Orrthebest View Post
I try to make it easy for you if Sally has $10 and Peter has $20. Sally buys a gidget which she sells for $60. Peter buys a gadget and sells it at $60. Which one did better?
If you can't grasp the dilution factor, that really isn't my problem.

For the avg NFL salary to stay at pace with the avg NHL salary, NFL revenues would have to be mind boggling to cover the expenses of their expanded rosters.

I'm sure even you can grasp this simple economic principle.

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11-14-2012, 06:58 PM
  #106
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Wonder if the owners are willing to wait out the year to get their deal. There is a lot of uncertainty in the economic world right now, with the fiscal cliff looming in the US, Canada downgrading their outlook for the future and Europe seeing riots and demonstrations against austerity.

The owners, being businessmen, would likely rather wait out the season to see how things play out next year in the world economy than give in to a deal they dont want. If the fiscal cliff causes the US to go back into recession, I'm sure the owners dont want to be tied into a CBA that makes it tough for them to weather it.

Its a bad time for the players to be playing hard ball.

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Old
11-14-2012, 07:01 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by MacOfNiagara View Post
Retweeted by Steve Ott. Ironic.



http://twitter.com/SportsSturm/statu...690880/photo/1

hmm. Cant get the twitter image to work. And cant seem to recall how to delete the post.
half the players probably have no clue what the economics of the NHL actually are.

Plus the sides are quite close(in theory).

Growth will exceed 5% some years but this probably means the players wont hit 50/50 until year 4 or 5. which is a decent difference from hitting it in year 3.

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11-14-2012, 07:03 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Cawz View Post
Wonder if the owners are willing to wait out the year to get their deal. There is a lot of uncertainty in the economic world right now, with the fiscal cliff looming in the US, Canada downgrading their outlook for the future and Europe seeing riots and demonstrations against austerity.

The owners, being businessmen, would likely rather wait out the season to see how things play out next year in the world economy than give in to a deal they dont want. If the fiscal cliff causes the US to go back into recession, I'm sure the owners dont want to be tied into a CBA that makes it tough for them to weather it.

Its a bad time for the players to be playing hard ball.
Looking at it, there is no real reason for either side to go a full year on this. but then again, most people have predicted where this will end up from the start, but it's taken months for them to get that far. Quite a slow process.

However, the NHL is done giving in on certain things, it's up to the PA to make the next move. Otherwise I see another month until the next NHL proposal.

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11-14-2012, 07:04 PM
  #109
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Umm...no teams losing money? I'm pretty sure the Phoenix Coyotes will still be losing money even with the current offer. They lost 24.4 million last year...
The NHL is not a charity. Unfortunatly, teams that continue to be highly unsustainable on their own should be moved.

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11-14-2012, 07:04 PM
  #110
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Oh...but they have.

It was a 82 game season with making them whole. No matter what happens from here out the players are losing more and more money they'll never get back.

The owners deals after were not making up the lost wages.
Yeah, making them whole with their own money. 50-50, a way where the players get the full-value of their contracts with a certain percentage deferred. WITHOUT that money coming from the future percentage. Only change in contracting rules being the 5% variance or discrepency or whatever they are calling it. Also keep the idea of the cap hits if a player retires early. No changes to arbitration, UFA age, and it will get done.

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11-14-2012, 07:04 PM
  #111
HavlatMach9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MacOfNiagara View Post
Retweeted by Steve Ott. Ironic.
Wish that was true in real life, but corporations like to pay close to minimum wage


Last edited by HavlatMach9: 11-14-2012 at 07:12 PM.
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Old
11-14-2012, 07:06 PM
  #112
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Watched that's hockey on TSN. It's almost as if Fehr is paying them, they just regurgitate NHLPA talking points.

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Old
11-14-2012, 07:09 PM
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MacOfNiagara View Post
Retweeted by Steve Ott. Ironic (Mocking the economic understanding of a group while displaying a poor understanding of economics)




hmm. Cant get the twitter image to work. And cant seem to recall how to delete the post.
Kind of silly since they have been effectively getting raises every years with the increasing salary cap.

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Old
11-14-2012, 07:11 PM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MacOfNiagara View Post
Retweeted by Steve Ott. Ironic (Mocking the economic understanding of a group while displaying a poor understanding of economics)




hmm. Cant get the twitter image to work. And cant seem to recall how to delete the post.
I think this is basically the understanding that the NHLPA has of the situation. Meaning, no reference to the difference between revenue and profit, and entirely take for granted that wages already increased well more than they are being threatened to drop now. It's so blindingly stupid, I have to despise whoever printed this. It's a disservice to people who actually want to have a real understanding of what's going on.

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Old
11-14-2012, 07:11 PM
  #115
CerebralGenesis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MacOfNiagara View Post
Retweeted by Steve Ott. Ironic (Mocking the economic understanding of a group while displaying a poor understanding of economics)




hmm. Cant get the twitter image to work. And cant seem to recall how to delete the post.
I decided to attempt and educate Mr. Ott on twitter. Doubt he responds.

No communications is sad. I expect them to potentially start back up once the threat of December games getting cancelled comes upon us. Those will probably get lost too, so back to status quo.

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11-14-2012, 07:22 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
If you can't grasp the dilution factor, that really isn't my problem.

For the avg NFL salary to stay at pace with the avg NHL salary, NFL revenues would have to be mind boggling to cover the expenses of their expanded rosters.

I'm sure even you can grasp this simple economic principle.

I put a very simple example for you to answer and you refuse and then attack me. If your in a business meeting are ROI and growth usually reported as a percentage? If I told you you could have a 600% raise over the next 20 years or you could have a 300% over the next 20 years which would you choose? I guess according to you there the same.


Last edited by Orrthebest: 11-14-2012 at 07:28 PM. Reason: dyslexia
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Old
11-14-2012, 07:22 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Zyllia View Post
Just out of curiosity, on average, how much money does a team/owner spend on a player over the course of a season (not including salary or bonuses)? I could be wrong, but don't they pay travel expenses (flight, hotel, meals, etc.), trainers, equipment, medical, dieticians, relocation (if necessary), etc.?

Please excuse me if this is a stupid question but it's something I've been wondering and am unable to
locate any data.
Ballpark numbers per player (using conservative numbers):
Air travel $100k
per diem, hotel $18k
health, dental, soc sec. $32k
trainers, equipment, unis $25k
dieticians, relocation ?
free game tickets $5k
pre-game, post-game and pre-season meals ?
training rooms and equipment, practice ice time ?
Coaching $75k
long term salary/injury insurance $40k (minimum)

Roughly $300k/player minimum in non-salary payouts.

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Old
11-14-2012, 07:24 PM
  #118
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If December games are cancelled does that pretty much mean the season will be lost?

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Old
11-14-2012, 07:24 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by rdawg1234 View Post
Looking at it, there is no real reason for either side to go a full year on this. but then again, most people have predicted where this will end up from the start, but it's taken months for them to get that far. Quite a slow process.

However, the NHL is done giving in on certain things, it's up to the PA to make the next move. Otherwise I see another month until the next NHL proposal.
Just what has the league given the players that they didn't already have?

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Old
11-14-2012, 07:26 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by MacOfNiagara View Post
Retweeted by Steve Ott. Ironic (Mocking the economic understanding of a group while displaying a poor understanding of economics)




hmm. Cant get the twitter image to work. And cant seem to recall how to delete the post.
You guys didn't know Steve Ott has his PhD in Economics??? Yup......that's one intelligent enforcer this league has the privilege to employ!

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Old
11-14-2012, 07:27 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by Boooooth10 View Post
If December games are cancelled does that pretty much mean the season will be lost?
Not automatic, but I say if we aren't playing hockey in December we won't be playing this year (or until January 2014 at that).

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11-14-2012, 07:27 PM
  #122
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Chris Botta ‏@ChrisBottaNHL
Source: if there isn't a deal in place in next 7days, NHL will cancel games thru Dec. 15. Next cancellation could be the season.

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Old
11-14-2012, 07:29 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by Stix and Stones View Post
Just what has the league given the players that they didn't already have?
You still haven't answered me concerning this.

Players make monster contracts and expect more!?

If you paid a fast food cook $25/hr and realized that you are making money but paying too much, it is time to cut his pay to make it more market friendly. He still gets great pay and you start increasing your margin.

I read one about a donkey or something eating too much grain, so you feed him less. I won't rob that that one though because I forget it, but you get the idea. But possibly not.

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Old
11-14-2012, 07:30 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by NYRFAN218 View Post
Chris Botta ‏@ChrisBottaNHL
Source: if there isn't a deal in place in next 7days, NHL will cancel games thru Dec. 15. Next cancellation could be the season.
If they cancel another season this soon...jeeze. Not going to be good.

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Old
11-14-2012, 07:30 PM
  #125
MacOfNiagara
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYRFAN218 View Post
Chris Botta ‏@ChrisBottaNHL
Source: if there isn't a deal in place in next 7days, NHL will cancel games thru Dec. 15. Next cancellation could be the season.
Pretty much the time line I have suspected. Dec games gone soon, season gone mid Dec - early Jan.

It will be here real quick.

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