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Does Anybody Here Remember Vera Lynn? (CBA & Lockout Discussion) XXVIII ‎

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Old
11-14-2012, 07:31 PM
  #126
Astoria
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
Ballpark numbers per player (using conservative numbers):
Air travel $100k
per diem, hotel $18k
health, dental, soc sec. $32k
trainers, equipment, unis $25k
dieticians, relocation ?
free game tickets $5k
pre-game, post-game and pre-season meals ?
training rooms and equipment, practice ice time ?
Coaching $75k
long term salary/injury insurance $40k (minimum)

Roughly $300k/player minimum in non-salary payouts.
Thanks! I got curious about all this when I read something about players wanting to have their own hotel rooms....

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Old
11-14-2012, 07:32 PM
  #127
CerebralGenesis
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I expect early Jan to be the date to cancel the season. Damn shame, and you know Fehr is going to stall and possibly test that date. He is making a hell of a name for himself.

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11-14-2012, 07:32 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by MacOfNiagara View Post
Pretty much the time line I have suspected. Dec games gone soon, season gone mid Dec - early Jan.

It will be here real quick.
And thank god is all I can say to that. The quicker the death, the better.

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Old
11-14-2012, 07:33 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by Stix and Stones View Post
Just what has the league given the players that they didn't already have?
Single hotel rooms, extra medical personel per team, free tickets for family members, first dibs on away game tickets for families, cap hit stays if dumped in minors(essentially more of a guarentee to stay up with the NHL club) etc. etc. alot of small little benefits

Of course everything else has been a "concession" from the players, but they will be getting world class treatment, guarenteed contracts, and millions more as the league continues to grow.

All these concessions are for the benefit of the league to be healthy for the majority of the teams, the last CBA the league benefitted alot, now it's time for little tweaks(10% drop this time+ small contract changes) to make it even more sustainable.

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11-14-2012, 07:34 PM
  #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYRFAN218 View Post
Chris Botta ‏@ChrisBottaNHL
Source: if there isn't a deal in place in next 7days, NHL will cancel games thru Dec. 15. Next cancellation could be the season.
The fake deadlines Fehr has been talking about...he probably thinks the real one is in April. Then he can start negotiating off a real deadline. Play into September, two week break and then start the 2013-2014 season...am I right, Fehr?

League said if a deal isn't signed by September 15th, we're going to a lockout. Deal didn't happen on the 15th, players locked out.

Leagues says deal needs to be made by November 25 in order to salvage a reworked 82 game season. Deal didn't happen, 82 game season lost and hasn't been offered since.

What about these deadlines does Fehr think is fake?

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11-14-2012, 07:34 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by CerebralGenesis View Post
You still haven't answered me concerning this.

Players make monster contracts and expect more!?

If you paid a fast food cook $25/hr and realized that you are making money but paying too much, it is time to cut his pay to make it more market friendly. He still gets great pay and you start increasing your margin.

I read one about a donkey or something eating too much grain, so you feed him less. I won't rob that that one though because I forget it, but you get the idea. But possibly not.
If the customers came specifically for his cooking there is no wayI'd cut his pay. Ofcourse you would, I get it.

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Old
11-14-2012, 07:36 PM
  #132
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It's a pity I thought they would come to an agreement soon after they started negotiating.

Fehr seemed serious having players standing behind him, telling the media that if we don't get it done today, we'll come in tomorrow, and etc.

To think, when he was saying those things, negotiations hadn't even begun, each side presented their proposal, and said peace after those few 90 mins sessions.

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11-14-2012, 07:37 PM
  #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYRFAN218 View Post
Chris Botta ‏@ChrisBottaNHL
Source: if there isn't a deal in place in next 7days, NHL will cancel games thru Dec. 15. Next cancellation could be the season.
If I were the league I'd cancel the season now and table a final offer driving the revenue share to 60-40 in favour of the owners. Make it apply to new definitions of HRR and make even harsher free agent limitations.

If the Fehrs want to drop the cap then let them. Sure, there will be some teams going over the old cap limit but what about the rest of the league? Let's see how the players like watching most of the league payrolls drop from the cap floor to something like $20-25million.

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Old
11-14-2012, 07:38 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by Barrie22 View Post
But fehr was in a sense, he was an advisor/friend with goodnow.
And he reccomended to Goodenow that he needed a 2 year holdout to not have a cap system. The scary thing is if he didn't get removed he prob was on his way to do it. I think Fehr is a better manipulator then Goodenow but I'm not sure he can convince the players to sit out another year and get less then they could have before.

One thing I will guarantee is that Fehr will take this to the brink of a season being cancelled if he can.

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11-14-2012, 07:38 PM
  #135
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If the league cancels the season in January, neither side will have any incentive to really start talking. Owners will have already lost their revenue. Players will have already lost their salary for the season. The only thing new that will come of it is that the players can stop calling bluff on the owners and will have to deal with the reality of actually losing a full season of pay and no longer potentially losing a season of play.

However, after the league dismissed the 3 proposals in 10 minutes, while a lot of players were pissed, many were urging the reps to get Fehr back at the table negotiating. Cancelling more games will probably produce the same reaction from whoever those players were that felt it was important to keep at it at the negotiating table rather than sit and stew over their proposals being dismissed in 10 minutes.

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Old
11-14-2012, 07:39 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by Stix and Stones View Post
If the customers came specifically for his cooking there is no wayI'd cut his pay. Ofcourse you would, I get it.
If customers came in specifically for his cooking, you'd imagine another restaurant somewhere would be able to hire him at something more than $5/hour. But one won't. So it's not an apt comparison for you on those grounds. It's a supply and demand world, and there's no demand for these players anywhere else in the world at nearly the price the NHL is paying. You know what means? The fans come for the sweaters, not the guys wearing them.

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Old
11-14-2012, 07:39 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by MacOfNiagara View Post
Retweeted by Steve Ott. Ironic (Mocking the economic understanding of a group while displaying a poor understanding of economics)




hmm. Cant get the twitter image to work. And cant seem to recall how to delete the post.
"Why a gag order would help the NHLPA's cause" - Exhibit 1567865398

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Old
11-14-2012, 07:42 PM
  #138
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I knew if there was no deal by December there was no season.

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Old
11-14-2012, 07:43 PM
  #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stix and Stones View Post
If the customers came specifically for his cooking there is no wayI'd cut his pay. Ofcourse you would, I get it.
Unfortunately you can go to other places and get other niche meals. In fact, those other places are more popular and marketed more/better. But of course he deserves more than the more popular places, you'd give him a raise? Of course you would...and then run out of money.

But you've made it known you don't care about non-Canadian teams so I guess we're back to the other side of the circle.

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11-14-2012, 07:44 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by HockeyCrazed101 View Post
The fake deadlines Fehr has been talking about...he probably thinks the real one is in April. Then he can start negotiating off a real deadline. Play into September, two week break and then start the 2013-2014 season...am I right, Fehr?

League said if a deal isn't signed by September 15th, we're going to a lockout. Deal didn't happen on the 15th, players locked out.

Leagues says deal needs to be made by November 25 in order to salvage a reworked 82 game season. Deal didn't happen, 82 game season lost and hasn't been offered since.

What about these deadlines does Fehr think is fake?
That's the prob unless the NHL puts out a real deadline Fehr will just continue to stall untill he finds the edge of the cliff.

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Old
11-14-2012, 07:47 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by CBJBrassard16 View Post
I knew if there was no deal by December there was no season.
I think season cuts off mid-january.

I'm not really interested in a 30 game season anyway. 45-50 game minimum. No team deserves to a cup after playing 30 games.

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Old
11-14-2012, 07:48 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by haseoke39 View Post
If customers came in specifically for his cooking, you'd imagine another restaurant somewhere would be able to hire him at something more than $5/hour. But one won't. So it's not an apt comparison for you on those grounds. It's a supply and demand world, and there's no demand for these players anywhere else in the world at nearly the price the NHL is paying. You know what means? The fans come for the sweaters, not the guys wearing them.
Not likely, all one has to do is look south of the border and what do the fans say? If my team is garbage don't expect me to support it. We aren't sheep.

If I'm making record revenue I'm not going to cut my cooks pay so I can make more. I like to skipper a happy ship.

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11-14-2012, 07:49 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by CerebralGenesis View Post
You still haven't answered me concerning this.

Players make monster contracts and expect more!?

If you paid a fast food cook $25/hr and realized that you are making money but paying too much, it is time to cut his pay to make it more market friendly. He still gets great pay and you start increasing your margin.

I read one about a donkey or something eating too much grain, so you feed him less. I won't rob that that one though because I forget it, but you get the idea. But possibly not.
Actually, that would be a VERY stupid thing to do. What do you consider market friendly? $15/hr? Is that great pay? $20/hr? That's great pay?

In a business, loyal employees are a huge asset. If the cook knows you are paying him/her more than competing restaurants, you won't have to worry about losing him. Cut his/her pay and they will bolt to a competitor for a penny more than you are paying. Next you will say that fast-food cooks are a dime a dozen. So, you hire someone else. Spend time training the newb, but you notice the quality isn't there, or the possibility that he/she is stealing.

If the cook has been with you for 10 years and started at $10/hr and slowly increased with experience, then you don't mess it up. Let's say that person leaves for whatever reason, maybe you don't offer the new cook $25/hr, but the more you pay, the more picky you can be about who you hire.

Secondly, the cut in pay will spread through the rest of your employees. All of a sudden, they are questioning whether they want to work for someone who would slash a loyal employee's pay just to get in line with market rate, WHEN YOU ARE ALREADY MAKING MONEY.

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11-14-2012, 07:49 PM
  #144
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Chris Botta ‏@ChrisBottaNHL
Also, optimism around team offices almost nil. Drop-dead date arriving soon. I'm still hopeful for a Dec (2012) start. #NHL

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11-14-2012, 07:51 PM
  #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mranderson View Post
"Why a gag order would help the NHLPA's cause" - Exhibit 1567865398
The funny thing is, does Ott's actions reflect a PA that has been preaching recently that they believe they're closer to a deal? If you're closer to a deal, why are you still resorting to the childish comments and reactions?

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11-14-2012, 07:51 PM
  #146
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Originally Posted by Stix and Stones View Post
Not likely, all one has to do is look south of the border and what do the fans say? If my team is garbage don't expect me to support it. We aren't sheep.

If I'm making record revenue I'm not going to cut my cooks pay so I can make more. I like to skipper a happy ship.
You aren't making more though... he's costing more and the majority of teams are losing more because of the pay. I don't know why this is difficult to grasp. You can't raise prices to recover the excess pay so where is the extra money coming from? You are losing money already and you are going to give him raises!?

This isn't even the real issue so I'm not sure why I'm trying to teach. Players and owners have essentially agreed to 50/50 with the current guys getting their cash. The PA just needs to go to the table and negotiate and we'll be back on the ice.

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11-14-2012, 07:54 PM
  #147
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Originally Posted by Orrthebest View Post
Please, explain why if GB is such a bad commissioner that NHL player salaries have increased at twice the rate of NFL players.
Why do somewhere between 33-50% of all NHL teams lose money?

Bettman is not beholden to the players, but rather the owners and half of them may be losing money?

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11-14-2012, 07:54 PM
  #148
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Originally Posted by patnyrnyg View Post
Actually, that would be a VERY stupid thing to do. What do you consider market friendly? $15/hr? Is that great pay? $20/hr? That's great pay?

In a business, loyal employees are a huge asset. If the cook knows you are paying him/her more than competing restaurants, you won't have to worry about losing him. Cut his/her pay and they will bolt to a competitor for a penny more than you are paying. Next you will say that fast-food cooks are a dime a dozen. So, you hire someone else. Spend time training the newb, but you notice the quality isn't there, or the possibility that he/she is stealing.

If the cook has been with you for 10 years and started at $10/hr and slowly increased with experience, then you don't mess it up. Let's say that person leaves for whatever reason, maybe you don't offer the new cook $25/hr, but the more you pay, the more picky you can be about who you hire.

Secondly, the cut in pay will spread through the rest of your employees. All of a sudden, they are questioning whether they want to work for someone who would slash a loyal employee's pay just to get in line with market rate, WHEN YOU ARE ALREADY MAKING MONEY.
You aren't making money... 3 teams are making money. 17 teams are not. Revenue sharing is not going to fill the whole gap, that is a dream.

And that isn't a great example I suppose because the cooks can't bolt here. Where are they going to go and get more money? No where. They are either at home unemployed or taking your pay. So I guess the guy telling the story about the donkey and grain was more accurate. Touche there, bad story example since it's not really apples to apples.

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11-14-2012, 07:54 PM
  #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stix and Stones View Post
Not likely, all one has to do is look south of the border and what do the fans say? If my team is garbage don't expect me to support it. We aren't sheep.

If I'm making record revenue I'm not going to cut my cooks pay so I can make more. I like to skipper a happy ship.
What you're talking about has nothing to do with anything. You're talking about whether any one team wins or loses - which, incidentally, isn't effected on net at all if you replace the whole PA. Swap out a losing NHL squad for a losing AHL squad and nobody cares. Is the AHL making $3.3B this year because they have more NHLers? Is it even close to proportional? No.

What the rest of the world is talking about is whether the fans follow the players from league to league. And they obviously don't. Tell the NHL players to go play in the AHL. No salary cap. Easy. Done. If fans go to see the players, this should save us all some time. Oh wait, they'd still be making $50K/year there. Maybe after a generation passes, if the players all stayed there, AHL teams would increase in value, but it aint happening in any of these players careers.

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11-14-2012, 07:56 PM
  #150
CerebralGenesis
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Originally Posted by TaketheCannoli View Post
Why do somewhere between 33-50% of all NHL teams lose money?

Bettman is not beholden to the players, but rather the owners and half of them may be losing money?
I'll say this to that comment.

The owners wrote the CBA and did a poor job in doing so.

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