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2012 CBA Discussion Part IV (Lockout talk here)

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11-14-2012, 06:18 PM
  #1
Dogberry
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2012 CBA Discussion Part IV (Lockout talk here)

Continue here.

Part I: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1219919
Part II: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1266407
Part III: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1274757

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11-14-2012, 06:28 PM
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Do we have to?


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11-14-2012, 06:29 PM
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Do we have to?

Ask Gary and Don.

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11-14-2012, 06:30 PM
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this is getting to be a joke and getting close to saying who cares.

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11-14-2012, 06:43 PM
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Trying to get into the Celtics and the NBA...not happening. you NHL/NHLPA !!

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11-14-2012, 06:46 PM
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So if the players take a paycut, Bettman must as well?!

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11-14-2012, 06:47 PM
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Nose faced Rondo Wooo!!


Nope not the same.

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11-14-2012, 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted by BergyMeister View Post
Trying to get into the Celtics and the NBA...not happening. you NHL/NHLPA !!
Same here...theres just no way! Watching a bruins replay on nesn right now.

BTW: Is anybody making money from me watching this right now?

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11-14-2012, 06:53 PM
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Originally posted by Kaoz
The owners made concessions just as the players did during the last lockout that have led us to this point. The main one being a cap tied to league revenues. Had they of gotten what they really wanted, a hard cap, we likely wouldn't be having this discussion right now. We'd also likely have missed out on a lot more hockey then we actually did as the players would have taken much longer to concede then they did. Sadly though, players like Sid Crosby would have had to settle for 7million per year instead of 10mill per. Heinous, I know.

The owners aren't "crying poor mouth" (I've never actually heard that term before so I assume meaning whining about not making enough money?). 18 teams lost money last year and not just southern market teams. Teams like Pittsburgh, NY Islanders, Buffalo, Jersey, Washington are bleeding money and other teams such as our very own Boston Bruins were awfully close to losing money (in fact likely did after you figure in other financial factors). This isn't a Southern Market problem, this is an NHL problem.

Teams can't find owners willing to spend 150+ mill on a team just so they can have the right to bleed millions of dollars in cash a season. Player costs are the reason that's happening.
As to the bolded - Are you sure about that? Do you want to bring some facts to back that up? You know that there are things that are excluded from HRR right? Most owners make more than what they show on the bottom line - not less. Anyone here ever show more money on tax returns so they can pay more in taxes? Didn't think so.

Yes the owners are crying poor - have you paid attention to any of this. If they weren't then we would have a season. Only 9 teams lost money in both cash and franchise value last year and that is because they overspend their budget. How is that the players fault again?

A hard cap was on the table and the owners rejected it. You are right, it would have been a better deal for the owners than what they got. They were stupid for not agreeing to one and losing a season last time. They are stupid for not agreeing to the PA's 50/50 and make whole offer this time as well. The difference in offers is very little right now and the players want more revenue sharing. If this is for the good of the game then the players offer is better.

Only 6 teams lost money over the last CBA. Only the Coyotes, Islanders, and Blue Jackets any significant amount. That is at 54-57% for the players, overspending budgets, cap circumventing contracts and general mismanagement of their teams. The Coyotes could have been moved and their problems go well beyond paying 57% to the players, the Islanders are moving to Brooklyn, and the Blue Jackets have been horribly mismanaged. They spent as much over the cap floor this year as they lost and still couldn't make the playoffs.

Teams can always find a buyer if they are even somewhat well run and don't have major debt issues. The owners are the cause of any of their problems. Under the players proposal there are only 3 teams in their current condition I wouldn't want to own. Phoenix because they have been run into the ground. Dallas and New Jersey because they have debt greater than the teams value. I would much rather own any other NHL team than be a player. You will make more without any health risk, having to keep yourself in shape, etc.

It amazes me that people want to take from the players to guarantee profitability for billionaire owners because they can't run their business right. This is the players livelihood. This is a side business for many owners. It is obvious that some either don't care or don't know how to make a profit. If you want to take all risk out of owning a franchise, take from the owners not the players.

The CBA needs some tweaking not a major overhaul of everything the owners want. Change the front loaded contracts, more cost control on the 2nd contracts, more revenue sharing, move 1 or 2 teams.

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11-14-2012, 07:05 PM
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Originally Posted by NathanHortonFan View Post
So if the players take a paycut, Bettman must as well?!
Hate him if you want but the NBA is still using the soft cap he implemented in 1983, he is NO DUMMY.

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11-14-2012, 07:34 PM
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Source: if there isn't a deal in place in next 7days, NHL will cancel games thru Dec. 15. Next cancellation could be the season.

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11-14-2012, 07:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Crossfire View Post
Chris Botta ‏@ChrisBottaNHL
Source: if there isn't a deal in place in next 7days, NHL will cancel games thru Dec. 15. Next cancellation could be the season.
They should just cancel the season and stop getting our hopes up. Because no one want's to budge on anything.

(nice avatar there! Mckayla Maroney is my spirit animal)

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11-14-2012, 07:56 PM
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Nhl Fiscal Cliff 2012

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11-14-2012, 08:05 PM
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They should just cancel the season and stop getting our hopes up. Because no one want's to budge on anything.

(nice avatar there! Mckayla Maroney is my spirit animal)
Agree 100%.

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11-14-2012, 08:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crossfire View Post
Chris Botta ‏@ChrisBottaNHL
Source: if there isn't a deal in place in next 7days, NHL will cancel games thru Dec. 15. Next cancellation could be the season.
Meh...Just cancel it already!

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11-14-2012, 08:20 PM
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Originally Posted by sjaustin77 View Post
As to the bolded - Are you sure about that? Do you want to bring some facts to back that up? You know that there are things that are excluded from HRR right? Most owners make more than what they show on the bottom line - not less. Anyone here ever show more money on tax returns so they can pay more in taxes? Didn't think so.

Yes the owners are crying poor - have you paid attention to any of this. If they weren't then we would have a season. Only 9 teams lost money in both cash and franchise value last year and that is because they overspend their budget. How is that the players fault again?

A hard cap was on the table and the owners rejected it. You are right, it would have been a better deal for the owners than what they got. They were stupid for not agreeing to one and losing a season last time. They are stupid for not agreeing to the PA's 50/50 and make whole offer this time as well. The difference in offers is very little right now and the players want more revenue sharing. If this is for the good of the game then the players offer is better.

Only 6 teams lost money over the last CBA. Only the Coyotes, Islanders, and Blue Jackets any significant amount. That is at 54-57% for the players, overspending budgets, cap circumventing contracts and general mismanagement of their teams. The Coyotes could have been moved and their problems go well beyond paying 57% to the players, the Islanders are moving to Brooklyn, and the Blue Jackets have been horribly mismanaged. They spent as much over the cap floor this year as they lost and still couldn't make the playoffs.

Teams can always find a buyer if they are even somewhat well run and don't have major debt issues. The owners are the cause of any of their problems. Under the players proposal there are only 3 teams in their current condition I wouldn't want to own. Phoenix because they have been run into the ground. Dallas and New Jersey because they have debt greater than the teams value. I would much rather own any other NHL team than be a player. You will make more without any health risk, having to keep yourself in shape, etc.

It amazes me that people want to take from the players to guarantee profitability for billionaire owners because they can't run their business right. This is the players livelihood. This is a side business for many owners. It is obvious that some either don't care or don't know how to make a profit. If you want to take all risk out of owning a franchise, take from the owners not the players.

The CBA needs some tweaking not a major overhaul of everything the owners want. Change the front loaded contracts, more cost control on the 2nd contracts, more revenue sharing, move 1 or 2 teams.
Im not sure i get your conclusions... For the most part i agree wigh your analysis for the most part but then you admit theres many teams losing money and say its the owners fault... Then you say it doesnt need to change.

I dont get it... If the owners screwed up before why dont they need to change now ?

If 1/3 of the teams are loskng money why dont they need go change?

I realize the players ardnt asking for a change...and with good reason. theyve done amazinhly well. but why again dont the owners who screwed jp by their own fault need a change now?

Must they really be forced to never fix their mistakes?

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11-14-2012, 08:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Alberta_OReilly_Fan View Post
Im not sure i get your conclusions... For the most part i agree wigh your analysis for the most part but then you admit theres many teams losing money and say its the owners fault... Then you say it doesnt need to change.

I dont get it... If the owners screwed up before why dont they need to change now ?

If 1/3 of the teams are loskng money why dont they need go change?

I realize the players ardnt asking for a change...and with good reason. theyve done amazinhly well. but why again dont the owners who screwed jp by their own fault need a change now?

Must they really be forced to never fix their mistakes?
Thats just it though, they don't want to fix their own mistakes, they want the players to pay for them. And not just for the mistakes they made, but for all mistakes they could possibly make in the future.

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Old
11-14-2012, 09:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Alberta_OReilly_Fan View Post
Im not sure i get your conclusions... For the most part i agree wigh your analysis for the most part but then you admit theres many teams losing money and say its the owners fault... Then you say it doesnt need to change.

I dont get it... If the owners screwed up before why dont they need to change now ?

If 1/3 of the teams are loskng money why dont they need go change?

I realize the players ardnt asking for a change...and with good reason. theyve done amazinhly well. but why again dont the owners who screwed jp by their own fault need a change now?

Must they really be forced to never fix their mistakes?
Only 6 (20%) lost money over the last CBA. Only 3 lost anything significant. Except for a couple of franchises at most it was through overspending, cap circumventing contracts, mismanagement, etc. It needed some give back by players and tweaking not a major overhaul all at once like the owners want.

I have never argued it doesn't need change but it is about other issues than just taking more from the players. I'm not even arguing the players shouldn't give back. My argument is the player's proposal at 50/50 with their make whole number should be plenty. The players deserve their current contracts honored in full at 57%. And the owners shouldn't get to change all the players contracting rights.

50/50 with the players make whole saves the owners $246M/yr. There is no need to hold out for the owners make whole version. The difference is minimal.
More revenue sharing is needed and the players want that.
Changing the upfront bonus contracts is needed. No more Philly-Nashville situations.
Length isn't a huge deal to me but 8 to 10 years should be fair. The owners don't need 5 years.
I think changing the cap floor is needed so that teams aren't forced to spend over their budgets. (Most still will but this mechanism should be there).
I think changing the 2nd contracts to have better cost control over young players is needed.

The owners need to take some responsibility for how and why we got here, for the players current contracts and for the future.
They should have a chance to make really good money on their investment if they run them with even half a brain.
They shouldn't be entitled to be guaranteed to make money no matter how they operate by taking it from players or rich owners.

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11-15-2012, 02:08 AM
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sjaustin77 View Post
Only 6 (20%) lost money over the last CBA. Only 3 lost anything significant. Except for a couple of franchises at most it was through overspending, cap circumventing contracts, mismanagement, etc. It needed some give back by players and tweaking not a major overhaul all at once like the owners want.

I have never argued it doesn't need change but it is about other issues than just taking more from the players. I'm not even arguing the players shouldn't give back. My argument is the player's proposal at 50/50 with their make whole number should be plenty. The players deserve their current contracts honored in full at 57%. And the owners shouldn't get to change all the players contracting rights.

50/50 with the players make whole saves the owners $246M/yr. There is no need to hold out for the owners make whole version. The difference is minimal.
More revenue sharing is needed and the players want that.
Changing the upfront bonus contracts is needed. No more Philly-Nashville situations.
Length isn't a huge deal to me but 8 to 10 years should be fair. The owners don't need 5 years.
I think changing the cap floor is needed so that teams aren't forced to spend over their budgets. (Most still will but this mechanism should be there).
I think changing the 2nd contracts to have better cost control over young players is needed.

The owners need to take some responsibility for how and why we got here, for the players current contracts and for the future.
They should have a chance to make really good money on their investment if they run them with even half a brain.
They shouldn't be entitled to be guaranteed to make money no matter how they operate by taking it from players or rich owners.
i just think maybe the owners did take some responsibility... after all they didnt shut down any teams despite signing a crappy deal. they didnt turn to collusion or try to falsify business reports to the players. it seems to me they honored the old deal. in fact they are accused by you of 'overspending' their budgets. so it seems to me they took responsibility and honored the terms of the old deal

and at the end of every cba theres an opportunity to renegotiate it. you live by it while its in effect... then you get a chance to renegotiate it when it expires. The players are asking 'whats in it for us?' the answer to that is obvious though... 700 odd jobs paying an average of over 2 million dollars a year guaranteed money

thats... a lot.

you say that the teams make a lot of money but they really dont. if you take 200 million dollars and invest it in ANY NORMAL BUSINESS for 6 years you would expect to make at least 40 million dollars minimum back. thats only a return of around 7 mill per year or 3.5% return on capital investment. The number of teams that actually have earned that type of profit since the last cba are limited to the top 10 teams in the league.

this... despite most teams getting millions and millions in government handouts... despite the new uniforms... despite some other one time only benefits. The profitability of these teams as meager as it is... is fragile and cant be reasonably projected into the future under the current CBA system.

Im not sure a 50/50 split will actually fix things either. At some point you cant have it both ways though. If you are saying the owners create their own crap by over spending... then whats the fear? Wont they continue to overspend? And if they do... wont the players be ok?

If the owners overspend anyhow... then whats the fear?

I dont get what the fear is? Why LEGISLATE them into a deal that is going to destroy them when you say they will overspend due to their egos and greed and stupidity anyhow? Why not just let them overspend by natural methods if its going to happen anyhow?

You are an interesting poster to read for me... cause i dont quite get your argument. You keep saying the owners are to blame cause they overspend anyhow and yet you still take the players side in this and say the owners are in the wrong for asking for a fix.

i got to admit, i dont get how thats a consistient pov conclusion from the facts you are tossing out.

Me... i dont think the owners necessarily deserve more profit, but i take them for their word that alot of teams are in danger of going out of business. We see it in pheonix and atlanta without any doubt at all... we see it in new york with the islanders and in tampa and nashville. We saw it in Pittsburgh not long ago. We see huge chinks in the armour in places like San Jose and Dallas where they actually have good teams usually. We see the Colorado market turning and we see ongoing problems in markets like Florida. I am probably missing a name or two...

I know they say Buffalo cant withstand a team in hamilton or another one in toronto cause most their fans commute down or whatever... so is buffalo a solid franchise under the current cba?

How many rock solid franchises are there... i mean a franchise that can turn a profit even when it misses the playoffs? Remember only 16 teams make the playoffs each year so its reasonable to say 14 wont. If 10 of those 14 teams are GUARANTEED to lose money because they missed the playoffs then how viable is the current financial system?

Would you stay in a business where you had a 33% chance of losing money this year?

You continuously toss out this idea that franchises go up in value... but you are quoting paper numbers guessed at by forbes. You havent gone and done the research to find actual sale figures. I tried to do that myself... but sales of teams is COMPLICATED. There is all sorts of crap that goes along with alot of these sales. Theres land deals in Tampa... and Casino deals in Pittsburgh... and tv sations in Toronto... and naming rights/management deals for some arenas... and all sorts of crap...

I say again... if owning a pro sports team was this lucrative business you suggest it is... then rival leagues would be sprouting up everywhere. The last 2 rival hockey leagues that tried though were the WHA and the IHL. Different models... both leages died BLOODY DEATHS that bankrupted alot of their owners.

Dont get me wrong... theres alot of billionares or wannabe billionares that love the GLORY of owning a pro team, and will willingly lose some money to get the EGORUSH. So life does go on. When one owner gets bloodied to the point he bails... some other SUCKER is lured in... so far... usually... most the time.

But what type of plan is this... where you have to turn over your bottom 10 teams to new SUCKERS every 5-6 years because the new CBA that promised to make their teams viable FAILS just like the old CBA did?

The reality is that all the teams do sell that are in trouble in this last few years... none of the owners that sold walked away happy. None are coming back. Leopold got a really sweetheart deal when he was the ONLY guy that wanted a new team. The group that got SUCKERED into taking his team has been shaky ever since and had criminals involved. The Los Angles ownership group has arena deals and shady things go on with them too. Boston has concession deals...

Theres alot of shady stuff going on with a few of the owners in the league which might cloudy up the waters... but in general we see evidence with our two eyes that everyone is leaving the NHL in recent years and none have anything good to say on the way out and none are knocking the door to get back in.

There are 10 or so owners/groups that do very well i guess. I dont think anyone says there arent at least around 10 markets that do very well. I know you want these markets to revenue share. So do some others... the players want it...

but making a profit ISNT A SIN in this democratic world we live in. We arent saying the players are sinful for signing a 7 mill contract here or a 6 mill contract there... then SUCKING to the point they cant even play a regular shift for their team.

Redden and Gomez get every cent they were promised because the owners honor the deals they made with these players. Once every few years the CBA comes up for renegotiation and this is the ONLY TIME the owners get a chance to fix problems they had to live with during the last CBA.

The players have had it very very very good for the past 30 years. I remember when Wayne Gretzky astonished us all with a 20 year 20 million dollar personal services contract with Pockington and that was what... 30 years ago? No player was making even a mill a year 30 years ago and now the average is 2.5 mill. From not 1 single player to hundred and hundreds making 2.5 times as much. SWEET

and Lidros came along... got 3 mill a year in 1993 was it? 20 years ago. He became the second highest paid player in the NHL if i remember right. Messier had some sort of guarantee to be the third highest paid player and got a raise if I remember right. Or.. was Lemieux involved too? Anyhow there might have been 4 guys in the entire NHL making 3 mill or more 20 years ago and now how many 100s and 100s of players make that? How many make more then 6 mill?

I dont begrudge guys like Lindros or Messier or Gretzky or Lemieux from making 100 mill a year if that is the going rate... cause these are hall of fame legends that sell the tickets. I dont care how much Crosby and Ovechkin and Stamkos and Chara make now for the very same reason. The owners dont really care either. The Owners would pay these guys whatever it takes to get them. But there is an artificial limit that no one player can get more then X% of a teams cap limit. Did the owners really want that limit or was that something the players insisted on?

I dont know... but its fashionale to blame this all on the owners i guess.

I wish the players would ask for better pension plans for their retired elders. I wish theyd ask for better payouts for career minor leagers. I wish theyd fight more for minimum salary players. A good union would do that... but I dont see much of it from these guys now.

The owners get accused of being greedy but they stay in a businss that loses them money and continue to toss out insane contracts. This isnt the action of greedy people... stupid and egotistical yes... greedy no.

The players on the other hand are guaranteed a % of the pie whether they maximize their INDIVIDUAL deals or not. The % of pie will be paid to collective one way or the other UNLESS the individual players get GREEDY and take for THEMSELVES... and thats exactly what they do. Anytime a player holds out for an extra 100k here or an extra million there... its being taken from the % that the collective would have gotten otherwise.

So not only DONT the players revenue share themselves... but they GREEDILY take from their union brothers everytime they MAXIMIZE their individual contracts with the team.

But... somehow this is something you dont want to admit to on their behalf. Only the owners somehow get damned for not revenue sharing and being greedy.

I dont say the players need to revenue share... but a unions job is to protect the weakest most abused members it has first... and this union is only trying to protect the middle class from what i can see. The middle class of NHL players numbers around 400 or so I would guess... and averages probably north of 3 mill per player I would guess. These guys dont need their union fighting for them at the cost of the season. These 400 players dont need to split 1.2 billion between them when the 30 NHL teams only get to split around 200 mill between themselves after expenses.

Take half the money from these middle class players and they still average a very healthy 1.5 mill or so annual salary and suddently the 30 teams have 800 mill to split between themselves and not only is the league super healthy... but there will be expansion and dozens and dozens of new union jobs too.

I know i sound crazy to suggest that the 400 or so middle class players would ever agree to this... but is it anymore crazy then saying the 2-3 profitable NHL teams should give up their profits?

Thats the thing. There are more then one way to fix this current problem. The owners arent going to agree to the revenue share approach. If they were, they would have done it already. Its NOT AMERICAN and I dont see any way Toronto or Rangers can justify it to their shareholders so... it aint going to happen.

That means some other possible solution will need to be swallowed down. The alternative is to lose the season. The owners are willing to do it. They were willing to do it last time. That is how much the current system sucks for them and the last one sucked too.

The players are freaked and want to keep the old systems. The old systems worked great for them. Of course they want to keep the old systems. of course they dont want to lose a season when their careers are so short. The owners could still own these teams 20-30 years from now if the economic model gets fixed. If the model gets fixed they might end up making an extra billion dollars or more in the next 20 years. So its very very affordable to them to shut down for a year and fix the system rather then keep operating under a broken system.

The players will need to face this reality or we as fans are going to lose out. And since its taxpayer dollars that have largely gone to float the boat in recent years for this whole mess... that sucks. We paid to keep this mess going and now they are screwing us because they are UNABLE to face reality???

Even accepting the owners proposals... they still have a DAMN GOOD DEAL. Take it and if the deal does get renegotiated next time... then deal with that too. What the heck are they talking about... we are worried about next time too? What?

Eventually if the day ever comes that the owners really to screw the players over... then a rival league really will start up. or the players will deunioize and sue the owners for combinds violations. or... at the very least i will jump sides and become a player union supporter.

But that day sure as heck hasnt happened yet. It hasnt been that way in my lifetime. The players have had everything their way for 40 years now and more...

They cant come crying poor to me... cause they arent poor. And they wont be poor even if they take this offer they have on the table.

Its not as good an offer as the last CBA but its a damn sight better then any offer theyd get from the KHL or AHL or Swiss League.. or flipping burgers at McDonalds.

Its a damn sight better then losing a year to a lockout too.

The owners will do it and there is a reason for it... they cant not do it. The players on the other hand... its unforgivable to me if they cant get realistic here and somehow meet the owners on common ground. Forget this insistence on revenue sharing cause it wont fly... swallow the 50-50 split. And trust in league growth to make the make-whole deal workout.

owners should give in on the other issues cause they are all crap issues anyhow and the owners will try to break them the second they get signed anyhow. Let the owners be stupid. Its what they want. But save them from themselves as far as going broke and destroying markets where the fans have invested in the teams.

No more Atlanta/Phoenix please.

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11-15-2012, 02:35 AM
  #20
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Thats just it though, they don't want to fix their own mistakes, they want the players to pay for them. And not just for the mistakes they made, but for all mistakes they could possibly make in the future.
i hear the same rethoric you do.. that the players are paying for fixing the mistakes... but really? I mean really?

there was a deal where the owners agreed to give the players 57% of hrr... and it was discovered that the owners couldnt stay in business at this generous level of sharing. They honored it though... during the length of the valid contract.

And now... they finally get a chance to negotiate a new contract. Now they say they want a 50-50 split and hopefully it will fix the problem.

how is this 'making the players pay??????'

i realize the players are only getting 50% instead of 57% but to jump to the CRAZY conclusion that this is 'making the players pay' would have to presuppose that the players were somehow ENTITLED to the 57% in the first place.

I know the owners agreed to it before... but now the owners are saying it was a MISTAKE and it was TOO MUCH and it NEEDS TO BE FIXED.

So yes the owners made a mistake. They were TOO GENEROUS to the players. And yes now the owners want to be LESS GENEROUS to the players. But you have to be one HELL OF A UNION SUPPORTER to actually say that this is passing the buck to the players to fix the problem

the players being overpaid WAS THE PROBLEM

Anyhow.. the NHL really needs better PR cause somehow the players get away with this rethoric and people out here buy it hook line and sinker. The problem in the NHL isnt that the league makes 3.3 billion in revenues. Thats a good thing

The problem is that the league has around 3.1 billion in costs leaving a shared profit of around 200 million in round numbers according to most the sources ive seen. This is not a good thing. HIGH COSTS IS NOT GOOD. The players are the single highest cost and the only one that is fixable to fix this problem.

Spreading the 200 mill around that the league makes in profits is a very very very small potatoes thing... a bandaid. But if you could tap into the billion dollars or so that the middle class of players is currently making and reduce their average salary from around 3 mlion to around 1.5 mllion then you suddenly have over 500 million to fix this problem with.

taking every single penny the owners have and applying to revenue share will only give you around 200 mill BUT taking only half the money that the 400 middle class players in the NHL are scheduled to make this year would give you over 500 million dollars to fix the problem.

EVERY PENNY of owners... or 1/2 the contract of 400 middle class players who still would average around 1.5 mill even after the correction...

I just dont really get how you guys can support the players on this issue... or toss ALL THE BLAME on the owners... or freak out that the owners want to fix this problem without having to give up what very meager profits a few of them do make.

Not that im saying the owners are saints or anything. Not that im saying im at all happy the owners keep coming to the taxpayers and then signing these stupid CBAs and givng the players these stupid contracts...

The owners obviously have done a lot of stupid things driven by their very stupid egos...

but us fans have alot of blame too... cause anytime the owners dont do stupid things, us fans cry like babies and wonder why the hell our team doesnt care?

Boston fans are about the worst offenders of this. We had a damn good team from 1972-1997 and yet how many of us here cry over how we were 'too cheap' to win a cup????

we all do.. we all cry that Jacobs was too cheap to get bourque a cup... so us fans are directly responsible for the preasure the owners feel to spend to the max {along with their own egos of course} and the players happily go for the ride.

I dont blame any player for taking the contracts... or even asking for them. I dont blame them for being unhappy when their share of HRR goes from 70% to 57% to 50%. None of us like the risk of paycuts... but even as their share of HRR has dropped, there ACTUAL PAYCHECKS HAVE GONE THROUGH THE ROOF. An average salary of 2.5 mill when the entire league makes only 3.3 billion {around 110 million per team} is really really really good pay. its too good of pay to let any but around 10 of the teams make a profit even from year to year.

So... thats where I come from with my arguments...and I am guessing where the owners are coming from. That is why the owners are willing to shut down this season unless they get what they ask for. Alot of people dont seem to get why the owners are willing to shut down the season 'if things are so damn good for them.' but the answer to that is very easy... things arent so damn good for them

its why they are willing to shut down this season. its why they arent going to be the ones to 'pay the price either.' The playes will 'pay the price' if 'paying the price' means having their compensation cut from WAY TOO MUCH to just slightly less then WAY TOO MUCH

and rememeber as always i do throw out this challange to any one that wants to go on record and try to argue here that the players are being underpaid? If any union supporter wants to toss out any names of players that signed contracts recently that take unfair advantage of the player... or rob him... abuse him.. whatever... I am curious to see that argument defended.

I know I sure as hell cant find any players that are being abused under the current system... and cant find a single one that would be abused at 50% either. But if anyone else can... id love to see that argument defended just for my own curiousity.

We see evidence with our own eyes of teams moving... unable to find new owners... going to taxpayers for 25 million dollar bailouts... leaving long island cause they cant make it work there... etc etc etc. Its not hard to find alot of owners that were abused under the old CBA. I cant find any players that were though.

And thats why this lockout is going to cost us a season unless the players stop their emotional rethoric and actually face the reality of the economics involved.

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Old
11-15-2012, 06:18 AM
  #21
Morris Wanchuk
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Just let this be over.. it is really killing my social life.

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11-15-2012, 06:33 AM
  #22
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Originally Posted by sjaustin77 View Post
As to the bolded - Are you sure about that? Do you want to bring some facts to back that up? You know that there are things that are excluded from HRR right? Most owners make more than what they show on the bottom line - not less. Anyone here ever show more money on tax returns so they can pay more in taxes? Didn't think so.

Yes the owners are crying poor - have you paid attention to any of this. If they weren't then we would have a season. Only 9 teams lost money in both cash and franchise value last year and that is because they overspend their budget. How is that the players fault again?

A hard cap was on the table and the owners rejected it. You are right, it would have been a better deal for the owners than what they got. They were stupid for not agreeing to one and losing a season last time. They are stupid for not agreeing to the PA's 50/50 and make whole offer this time as well. The difference in offers is very little right now and the players want more revenue sharing. If this is for the good of the game then the players offer is better.

Only 6 teams lost money over the last CBA. Only the Coyotes, Islanders, and Blue Jackets any significant amount. That is at 54-57% for the players, overspending budgets, cap circumventing contracts and general mismanagement of their teams. The Coyotes could have been moved and their problems go well beyond paying 57% to the players, the Islanders are moving to Brooklyn, and the Blue Jackets have been horribly mismanaged. They spent as much over the cap floor this year as they lost and still couldn't make the playoffs.

Teams can always find a buyer if they are even somewhat well run and don't have major debt issues. The owners are the cause of any of their problems. Under the players proposal there are only 3 teams in their current condition I wouldn't want to own. Phoenix because they have been run into the ground. Dallas and New Jersey because they have debt greater than the teams value. I would much rather own any other NHL team than be a player. You will make more without any health risk, having to keep yourself in shape, etc.

It amazes me that people want to take from the players to guarantee profitability for billionaire owners because they can't run their business right. This is the players livelihood. This is a side business for many owners. It is obvious that some either don't care or don't know how to make a profit. If you want to take all risk out of owning a franchise, take from the owners not the players.

The CBA needs some tweaking not a major overhaul of everything the owners want. Change the front loaded contracts, more cost control on the 2nd contracts, more revenue sharing, move 1 or 2 teams.
It seems of the two of us, I'm the one closest to bringing anything like facts to the table so far. Sorry, you made the comment. You've brought speculation and conjecture to this point. If you have more accurate financial figures, please feel free to throw them out there.

First, facts to back up my point that even teams showing minimal profit in that report likely lost money... at the very top of the Operating Income column you'll notice that it specifically mentions those profits are before things such as "Interest, Taxes, Depreciation and Amortization". Also...
The NHL's Problem: Only Three Teams Are Making Real Money

Bottom line, based on that information most teams are losing money (or aren't making any). I look forward to any reports you can provide that show the contrary.

To deal with your points individually. Re. the hard cap and the owners rejecting the proposal in the last CBA. The hard cap you seem to be talking about was actually put in place, being definied as a cap that must be strictly adhered to. When I say hard cap I mean a static figure that doesn't grow as revenues grow, as revenue growth figures are often skewed by one or two teams. The majority of NHL teams are losing money or are barely breaking even (again, unless you have numbers to the contrary.

Re. players wanting a hard cap and owners rejecting it last time around. The PA wanted nothing to do with any type of salary cap. I know you're a stickler for proof, so...
Re. Teams always being able to find a buyer. The LA Kings have been rumored to have been up for sale for 3 years now. We all know the debacle going on in Phoenix. No one's pulled the trigger on the Devils yet and they're now in a massive hole. And don't forget the proof:
Quote:
The Phoenix Coyotes won't sell. The Los Angeles Kings have been for sale for three years, some believe, with no takers. Potential buyers have been kicking the New Jersey Devils' tires for some time, but no one has been willing to pull the trigger.

That's right folks: Both Stanley Cup finalists are for sale and neither have sold.

"We're out of owners," said a former GM we spoke to, who declined to speak for attribution.

He cited the growing list of teams that are for sale -- either publicly or more privately in search of partners, like Florida and Ottawa, though Senators owner Eugene Melnyk has denied it.

When a prospective buyer looks into today's NHL investment, here's what he sees:

TV money that isn't close to what the other sports reap, yet average player salaries that are on par with those sports. Constant lockouts that have weakened the market across most of the U.S. Many of those markets have now run through a few different owners, whose differing tactics have all been met by the same lack of success at turning a profit.

Do smart, rich guys spend somewhere near $200 million on a company that loses money every season? Not since 2008, they don't.
The owners aren't crying poor, they're saying the NHL isn't profitable and by all appearances (again, unless you bring some proof to the contrary) they're absolutely right. If your argument is "it's all common sense" simply look at the teams that stayed well below the salary cap last year and still lost money.

Hopefully that suffices, but if not feel free to throw it out there again. The information is plastered all over the internet for everyone to see. It seems to be the norm for people to say "oh well, they'r erich, this is just a hobby for them". That's ridiculous, no one wants to lose money on a venture no matter what their current bankroll is..


Last edited by Kaoz: 11-15-2012 at 06:43 AM.
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Old
11-15-2012, 07:30 AM
  #23
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Just let this be over.. it is really killing my social life.
I'm just sick and tired of arguing whos in the right or the wrong. Just shut the **** up.. get a deal done, and lets get on with it.

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Old
11-15-2012, 07:30 AM
  #24
Dom - OHL
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Mediator from the NFL lockout wants a crack at the NHL Lockout... and he's a fan too

http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/i...k-at-cba-talks

And if you don't know the reporter Katie Strang, she has the most up to date and inside info on the lockout than anyone out there. She really knows her stuff.

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Old
11-15-2012, 07:34 AM
  #25
ODAAT
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Originally Posted by OrrOverGretzky View Post
Mediator from the NHL lockout wants a crack at the NHL Lockout... and he's a fan too

http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/i...k-at-cba-talks

And if you don't know the reporter Katie Strang, she has the most up to date and inside info on the lockout than anyone out there. She really knows her stuff.
at this point anything would be better than the current 'results' were seeing.

Never heard of Katie Strang, solid piece for sure

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