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Does Anybody Here Remember Vera Lynn? (CBA & Lockout Discussion) XXVIII ‎

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Old
11-14-2012, 09:21 PM
  #176
mouser
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JAX View Post
That's the prob unless the NHL puts out a real deadline Fehr will just continue to stall untill he finds the edge of the cliff.
The problem with this approach is that the "real" deadline is when it becomes impractical to have a partial season. We're still a long ways before reaching that point.

Any attempts by the NHL to create an artificial deadline will be justifiably recognized as such by the PA.

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11-14-2012, 09:22 PM
  #177
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Edit: missed a key word


Last edited by PensFanSince1989: 11-14-2012 at 09:29 PM.
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Old
11-14-2012, 09:23 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by Stix and Stones View Post
You never answered , why are teams selling for such a high price, because they lose millions per year. I see..
No you don't see... How much the business is worth and how much it makes in a year are not exclusively related: other things are factored when determing the value of a business.

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11-14-2012, 09:23 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by 5 Minute Major View Post
Right now, I'm not taking either side.

The owners need to get together, figure out what their best offer can be so no teams are losing money, and submit that to the NHLPA and give them a deadline to accept or reject the offer. They accept, then let the puck drop. They decline, make it clear that the season will be cancelled.

I don't think they have made the best offer they can. They need to do it and make it clear of what will happen if it is rejected.
I think the owners have already blown way past this point trying to get the NHLPA to be reasonable. Do you think what is currently on the table will make up the $30-40 M Pheonix needs to make a profit? That was probably not going to happen even with the initial proposed 43-57% split.

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Old
11-14-2012, 09:23 PM
  #180
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Originally Posted by Phil Parent View Post
Most of them have not finished high school, or did so with some generous grades given to them because they were star athletes and not to be messed with. Tell you a story...and this one isn't even about players who have a PRAYER to go pro. And not really about the lockout, more about the smarts of hockey players.

Harry, maybe you've heard of this, maybe some others from Quebec have...we now have a collegiate league based in many many CEGEPs here in Quebec (CEGEPs are something like prep schools for university, but you can also learn a craft there, for those who don't know.)

The players in this league mostly come from Junior A and Midget AAA, SOME of them were drafted in the Q, some are Q rejects, some are rec league guys. All aged 17 to 20....

And they have this rule that states that if you fail a certain number of courses in a same program two terms in a row, you're off the team and you can't play anymore. So some players...they come in in Social Studies because that has the lowest prerequisites needed to be admitted, and it has some gimme courses that anybody can pass, they do 2 terms, pick up some credit, and they fail enough to be kicked off the team, THEN, they change programs. That resets their failling quota. They go into Hygiene & Security On The Workplace, then again, low-prerequisites, only a basic Secondary 4 course in chemistry on top of their high school diploma which they probably have if they were allowed in Social Studies... and they do the same thing. Well, now the 17 year old is 19 years old. His academic profile is a mess of failures and DNFs, no university is going to want him AND his hockey career is shot to high hell EVEN MORE DEADER than it was, because in terms of getting exposure for semi-pro leagues, you are better off in Junior A.

So what does he do? If you say, "Do it again?" you are absolutely correct, a CEGEP I know real well has even made a program just for them: A crash course on becoming the perfect steel plant worker. Requires no thought whatsoever, you have ZERO written work to do, no plans to read or nothing, they all get SUPER GRADES and they can BRAG that their student athletes are the smartest in the province!

****. And those that have talents let an old guy who's never played the game or cared for it convince them to leave millions they'll never see again on the table, instead of TAKING THE MONEY.
I went to the high school that hosted one of the WHL team's high school kids. I doubt this was a written rule, but it was one used by all of the teachers and all the students knew about it: the junior players were guaranteed a C- (passing grade) on everything they did, no matter the quality of work.

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Old
11-14-2012, 09:25 PM
  #181
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Because when a team is purchased a lot of other things go along with the team. TV deals, arena contract, subsidies, etc. Etc.
So the owners have perqs and are doing just fine. Too bad they want even more at the expense of the emloyees. I have no sympathy for the owners. If you couldn't give teams away I'd believe them. As I said there is only one team that fits that description and even that team would sell for over 100 million if it was allowed to move.

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11-14-2012, 09:26 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by KingBogo View Post
I think the owners have already blown way past this point trying to get the NHLPA to be reasonable. Do you think what is currently on the table will make up the $30-40 M Pheonix needs to make a profit? That was probably not going to happen even with the initial proposed 43-57% split.
OK, once again, Phoenix is not the norm. That should go without saying.

Yes, I do think the NHL could put out an offer that drops the ridiculous restrictions they want to put on players concerning contract rights, so I do think they could make a better offer.

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11-14-2012, 09:27 PM
  #183
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Originally Posted by Stix and Stones View Post
You never answered , why are teams selling for such a high price, because they lose millions per year. I see..
The minefield of investing for profit, buy low, sell high. Except when someone fails and buys a team for $200mil and sells it for $100mil. Except when it takes months and even years to find someone to plunk down that $100mil on a risk. And it is high stakes. They have rules, they don't want owners who are putting their whole basket of eggs into the team. They have capital requirements because the NHL knows it is a risky venture. It's a $100mil (or whatever) because that is the buy in to a very high stakes game. And, it is $100mil because they can double their money or better if the risk pans out.

The other thing that you overlook is that it is not just the difference between purchase and sale price to determine profit or loss. You have to add interim cash calls to the purchase price to determine the total capital outlay. At that point, the NHL is an extremely high risk venture.

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11-14-2012, 09:27 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by trueblue9441 View Post
these negotiations are following the NBA's last year to a T. the thing the NBA had going for it already was they had contract term restrictions already
pretty much my feelings as well...Bettman is using his old buddy Stern's negotiation tactics to a tee

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11-14-2012, 09:28 PM
  #185
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pretty much my feelings as well...Bettman is using his old buddy Stern's negotiation tactics to a tee
Yeah, well it better produce the same result.

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11-14-2012, 09:28 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by PBPantherfan View Post
Something that popped in my head today about the lockout hurting the lilttle guy. The Panthers always did a Thanksgiving food drive. I wonder how many other teams did that and how much the charities they gave it to will have to work to make up for that loss this year?
Panthers are still doing it.
http://panthers.nhl.com/club/page.htm?id=84793

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11-14-2012, 09:29 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by JAX View Post
Yep, it might as well be in January because I'm sure Fehr will stall till then knowing a 48 game season can be salvalged. I don't think he would take a dec deadline serious, he would still posture even after the deadline went by.....and then of course blame the league if a deal couldn't be made.
Gretzky said at the onset of the lockout that he felt they wouldnt start playing again till January. His prediction may still prove true. He is Gretzky afterall.

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Old
11-14-2012, 09:32 PM
  #188
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Originally Posted by nki View Post
The players are not very smart, and they are principled. Not a very good combination. Their decision-making is clouded by their hate of Bettman and the owners. With that combination, the only thing that matters is what Fehr's motive is in this, because the players will follow him literally to the (financial) grave.
I don't think it's that they hate Bettman as much as they don't trust him and i will say that Fehr and Bettman don't really matter if a fair deal is on the table.

The latest NHL offer is the new make whole(or make partial if you will) with zero movement on the key contracting issues. Do people really think thats enough to get the players to sign? Alot of you think its a fair deal. I'll side with the players on this one and say it's not.

Just as people on the pro-owner side say the delinked proposals are unfair to the owners. This goes both ways.

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Old
11-14-2012, 09:33 PM
  #189
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Interesting article where they suggest that both sides are afraid to put good offers because of history between the league and the union. Specifically referring to Bettman forcing Goodenow's concession of 24% rollback on the players in addition to getting the salary cap.

It is getting a bit annoying when 'experts' claim there is an agreement on the 50/50 split, considering the parties 50/50 solutions are very far apart.

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11-14-2012, 09:34 PM
  #190
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Originally Posted by Stix and Stones View Post
You never answered , why are teams selling for such a high price, because they lose millions per year. I see..
Nobody's going to sell any asset that can generate $110M of revenue/year, even if it's operating at a loss, for pennies. Just having any asset that can pull in that much money is worth in the hundreds of millions. You buy it, and then you lower costs. Which, in this case, means negotiating a better CBA. This isn't rocket surgery, man. There's not a strange smoking man hiding in the closet pulling secret strings. Any business that can command a hundred million dollars in revenue is going to go for a pretty penny, regardless of profit/loss.

If you're not convinced of this, go find a company that's lost money for a few years and try to buy it with what you have in your wallet. If it doesn't make a profit, it can't be worth anything, right?

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11-14-2012, 09:34 PM
  #191
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Originally Posted by Orrthebest View Post
Why is it so hard for you to admit that GB has been better for the NHL players than the NFL commissioners have been to the NFL players? By the way were talking averages and percentages here so roster size is already accounted for.
Do you not grasp the concept that having 30 extra players per team, 960 in total, all making below 1m, is going to skewer the avg?

Take them out of the equation and the pie becomes much bigger and suddenly the NFL avg is significantly higher.

And once again, PT never disgraced the NFL and made it a laughingstock. He found a fair way to resolve labor disputes and keep both sides happy, without ever missing one game. What is Bettman up to now? 1800 or so?

I've lost count because it makes me ill to even know anymore.

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11-14-2012, 09:35 PM
  #192
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I get the feeling that this will eventually become an example used to illustrate the phrase "cutting of your nose to spite your face" to people.

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11-14-2012, 09:35 PM
  #193
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Originally Posted by CpatainCanuck View Post
I went to the high school that hosted one of the WHL team's high school kids. I doubt this was a written rule, but it was one used by all of the teachers and all the students knew about it: the junior players were guaranteed a C- (passing grade) on everything they did, no matter the quality of work.
.... well, arent you just stereotyping
though really? I mean, the vast majority are not...



Hey Cohch, ya seen our Hotwheels around? We can't find 'em anywhere!

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11-14-2012, 09:36 PM
  #194
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Originally Posted by 5 Minute Major View Post
OK, once again, Phoenix is not the norm. That should go without saying.

Yes, I do think the NHL could put out an offer that drops the ridiculous restrictions they want to put on players concerning contract rights, so I do think they could make a better offer.
But your post did so say "so no team loses money", not all teams except Pheonix. Also I think the NHL has already gone past what a lot of teams are comfortable with and probably has only slightly raised the bar on teams being profitable.

Contract rights will only impact a small % of current players anyways so why does the NHLPA want to hang their hat on it at the risk of a season that will effect all players.

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11-14-2012, 09:39 PM
  #195
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
And once again, PT never disgraced the NFL and made it a laughingstock. He found a fair way to resolve labor disputes and keep both sides happy, without ever missing one game. What is Bettman up to now? 1800 or so?

I've lost count.
What do you think he would he do here to resolve the conflict? Give in, even though the owners dont want to? Come to some magical solution that no has proposed yet?

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11-14-2012, 09:43 PM
  #196
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Originally Posted by Stix and Stones View Post
So the owners have perqs and are doing just fine. Too bad they want even more at the expense of the emloyees. I have no sympathy for the owners. If you couldn't give teams away I'd believe them. As I said there is only one team that fits that description and even that team would sell for over 100 million if it was allowed to move.
The sound of the real world passing by must make quite a whoosh.

(1) The NHL will have disappeared long before it gets to the point where you "couldn't give teams away." Go into any corporate boardroom in America after a couple quarters in the red and ask if you can buy the company for your pocket change. It doesn't happen. Any asset that can generate a hundred million dollars in revenue every year is worth hundreds of millions at least, on the principle that its costs can be cut and it can be made into a profitable venture. You want to know what is happening right now? The costs are being cut.

(2) The owners have perks and are doing fine? Go back to fantasy land. The median owner is losing money every year. The average franchise makes just $1.5M more than the average player, and after you split that between several owners, probably less per owner than the average player. The TV deal, the arena rights, etc. - these are all just part of the revenue stream that still adds up to a net loss. You want to know what is happening, by definition, when a company is making a net loss? Some factor of production costs more than it's economically worth to the consumers. Unless you have some great evidence that the popcorn guy is making more than he deserves, I'm gonna say it's the millionaires who make 57% of the company's total revenue.

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11-14-2012, 09:43 PM
  #197
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
Do you not grasp the concept that having 30 extra players per team, 960 in total, all making below 1m, is going to skewer the avg?

Take them out of the equation and the pie becomes much bigger and suddenly the NFL avg is significantly higher.

And once again, PT never disgraced the NFL and made it a laughingstock. He found a fair way to resolve labor disputes and keep both sides happy, without ever missing one game. What is Bettman up to now? 1800 or so?

I've lost count because it makes me ill to even know anymore.
You realize what happened before Tagliabue took office, right? Wait, why am I saying that, if you don't know why there was very little labor strife in the NFL for YEARS, you don't...

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11-14-2012, 09:45 PM
  #198
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What do you think he would he do here to resolve the conflict? Give in, even though the owners dont want to? Come to some magical solution that no has proposed yet?
He found a way to implement a cap
system and UFA without losing a game and had labor peace through out his term.

Bettman is on 1800 lost games or more and still can't get it right.

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11-14-2012, 09:48 PM
  #199
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
He found a way to implement a cap
system and UFA without losing a game and had labor peace through out his term.

Bettman is on 1800 lost games or more and still can't get it right.
Revenues will grow, teams will sell for even more than they do now. The owners will claim we're still losing money the players salary will be cut again. Wait until the next CBA.

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11-14-2012, 09:49 PM
  #200
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I think NFL players being less greedy (or maybe pushovers) is more of the reason for labor peace in the NFL

Its pretty crazy the most successful, by far, sport in America has the players getting the worst CBA out of the major sports.

Is that a credit to the commish? Or is it because the NFL players aren't so greedy?

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