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Old
11-14-2012, 05:50 PM
  #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MastuhNinks View Post
This, I don't know why but hairylikebear seems to only be capable to deal in absolutes.

I'm not saying all earlier draft picks are better than all later draft picks, nor am I saying Yakupov is automatically the better player because of where he was drafted. What I am saying is that, every first overall forward picked in recent memory has been a better player than Benn is now at his age, and are typically on another level than Benn offensively, so the odds are that Yakupov will likely better. I'm sure Edmonton would at least give him a chance in the NHL before trading him for a player who is not on the level of your typical first overall pick forward. From 2001-2009 (2010 and 2011 are too recent to judge), 5 of the 7 forwards picked 1st overall are clearly better than Benn IMO (Kovalchuk, Ovechkin, Crosby, Stamkos, Tavares), I don't think that's an unfair assessment. I'm giving Benn the benefit of the doubt here, saying that he could possibly end up better than Nash and Kane. I just think it would be crazy to give up a player who was drafted 1st overall, for a player who is typically not on the level of the forwards drafted that high in recent memory, without ever giving him the chance to prove himself in the NHL.

And I said it would be immature to provide a counter-example where a player picked later is worth more because I'm not saying drafted higher = automatically has more value, I'm saying that draft position is a factor in trade value. I don't see what's so hard to understand about that. hairylikebear, why do only deal in absolutes? Why can you not just read what I post and take it at face value instead of trying to twist my words into something that I didn't say? It's really frustrating arguing with people like this, because they try to tell you what you're saying, and argue with that, rather than argue with what you actually say.
I'm not dealing in absolutes. That was three posts ago, and it was more of a joke than anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hairylikebear View Post
Some overall picks are better than Benn; Yakupov is a first overall pick; Yakupov is better than Benn.***
Is the same logical construction as:

Some Russians are good hockey players; I am a Russian; therefore, I am a good hockey player.

You just can't do that. It's not evidence, it doesn't support anything. I'm not saying you're wrong or that I disagree with your opinion, just your defense of it.

It doesn't ****ing matter what Stamkos did when he was 23. Hall could score 90 goals this season (shortened even!) and it wouldn't have any affect on Mackinnon's trade value.

I'm not misunderstanding you (unless you're just plain misspeaking) because you've repeated the same thing about a dozen times, you just need to think about what I'm trying to say instead of getting in defense mode because you're being disagreed with.

Moreover, adding "odds are" is the same as just stating an opinion. When I say "odds are" the Kings don't repeat as champions, I'm actually saying "I don't think the Kings will repeat as champions." It's just a defense mechanism for people who don't like being called out.

Odds are Yakupov will become the better player than Benn means exactly the same as IMO Yakupov will become the better player than Benn.

***When I say "better than Benn" it's just to prevent wordiness (yeah, this **** could be even more long-winded). You can replace better with whatever you want (has more value than, has more potential than, has bigger feet than) it doesn't change the logical construction.

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11-14-2012, 06:09 PM
  #102
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Dallas isn't trading Benn. We don't care if Yakupov is "better" or not, he's not being traded.



Quote:
Originally Posted by MastuhNinks View Post
This, I don't know why but hairylikebear seems to only be capable to deal in absolutes.
Seems more like you two that have this problem.


Quote:
I'm not saying all earlier draft picks are better than all later draft picks, nor am I saying Yakupov is automatically the better player because of where he was drafted. What I am saying is that, every first overall forward picked in recent memory has been a better player than Benn is now at his age, and are typically on another level than Benn offensively, so the odds are that Yakupov will likely better.
If you can't compare Benn to the likes of Kane, Stamkos, Tavares, etc., then Yakupov's no different (being a 1st overall pick guarantees nothing at all). And Benn has yet to really break out as well, and it's looking like he'll end up being right around a PPG big, hard-hitting two-way center. Yakupov would have to put himself into an elite tier to be more valuable than Benn.


Quote:
I'm sure Edmonton would at least give him a chance in the NHL before trading him for a player who is not on the level of your typical first overall pick forward.
Obviously.

Quote:
From 2001-2009 (2010 and 2011 are too recent to judge), 5 of the 7 forwards picked 1st overall are clearly better than Benn IMO (Kovalchuk, Ovechkin, Crosby, Stamkos, Tavares), I don't think that's an unfair assessment. I'm giving Benn the benefit of the doubt here, saying that he could possibly end up better than Nash and Kane. I just think it would be crazy to give up a player who was drafted 1st overall, for a player who is typically not on the level of the forwards drafted that high in recent memory, without ever giving him the chance to prove himself in the NHL.
That's a fair assessment, but if you think Yakupov is likely to join those first 5 you listed off, you really need to sit down and see just how elite that group is (I'm not saying Yakupov can't get there, but it's highly unlikely). Edmonton fans always complain about how he was projected to be a 50-50-100 guy before Edmonton got the pick, and then it tempered down. Have you ever thought that no matter what happened, his hype would've gone down? 50-50-100 is a huge expectation for any player outside of a Crosby or a McDavid-esque prospect.

Quote:
And I said it would be immature to provide a counter-example where a player picked later is worth more because I'm not saying drafted higher = automatically has more value, I'm saying that draft position is a factor in trade value. I don't see what's so hard to understand about that. hairylikebear, why do only deal in absolutes? Why can you not just read what I post and take it at face value instead of trying to twist my words into something that I didn't say? It's really frustrating arguing with people like this, because they try to tell you what you're saying, and argue with that, rather than argue with what you actually say.
In 3 years, draft position will mean absolutely nothing to either player. 2009 for example. Scott Glennie was picked 8th overall, Tomas Vincour in the 5th round. If we didn't have both, I'd trade Glennie for Vincour in a heartbeat. Draft position really doesn't mean much once they hit the ice.

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11-14-2012, 06:09 PM
  #103
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Most 1st overall players are better than Benn, and Yakupov had pre-draft credentials slightly above average compared to most 1st overall players, so it is LIKELY that Yakupov will be better than Benn.

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11-14-2012, 06:18 PM
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5RingsAndABeer View Post
Most 1st overall players are better than Benn, and Yakupov had pre-draft credentials slightly above average compared to most 1st overall players, so it is LIKELY that Yakupov will be better than Benn.
This is a much better argument and I agree completely.

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11-14-2012, 07:36 PM
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hairylikebear View Post
Odds are Yakupov will become the better player than Benn means exactly the same as IMO Yakupov will become the better player than Benn.
That's not a matter of opinion, that's an objectively false statement.

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Originally Posted by hairylikebear View Post
This is a much better argument and I agree completely.
So basically the exact same thing I've been saying except worded differently. Cool. I'm glad you agree.

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11-14-2012, 08:43 PM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MastuhNinks View Post
That's not a matter of opinion, that's an objectively false statement.


So basically the exact same thing I've been saying except worded differently. Cool. I'm glad you agree.
Key word, basically. You didn't mention Yakupov's credentials at all except his draft position. The different words were sort of important.

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11-14-2012, 09:08 PM
  #107
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Couturier might be fair, but Benn is way too much for just Yak IMO.

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11-14-2012, 11:50 PM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hairylikebear View Post
Key word, basically. You didn't mention Yakupov's credentials at all except his draft position. The different words were sort of important.
Semantics are fun. Oh no, wait. The opposite of that.

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11-14-2012, 11:57 PM
  #109
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Id trade couturier for yaukupov right now. IM a huge couturier fan and if he reaches his potential he will be much more valuable than a potential 40 goal winger.

But the flyers are so deep at center that they can afford a luxury item like Yakupov

Yakupov Giroux Simmonds
Hartnell Briere Voracek
Read Schenn Wellwood


That is a sick top 9 and it moves Schenn back to his natural center position , a position i think he is more valuable at

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11-15-2012, 07:46 PM
  #110
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So its a deal. Sam Gagner for Sean Couturier.

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11-15-2012, 08:39 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by BoldNewLettuce View Post
So its a deal. Sam Gagner for Sean Couturier.
Ed Snyder would drop dead in a second if that happened.

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11-16-2012, 09:26 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by 5RingsAndABeer View Post
Most 1st overall players are better than Benn, and Yakupov had pre-draft credentials slightly above average compared to most 1st overall players, so it is LIKELY that Yakupov will be better than Benn.
I SEE THIS OFTEN ! I am an Oiler fan I have been one since they came into the NHL . Most first over all are better then Benn ? How ? More skill , yes ? Are they as tough ? No . Can we measure toughness ? No . Lets say all the Oiler players hit their ceiling . Lets say Hall is a 45/45 man Eberle is a 40/40 man , Yak is a 50/30 man RNH is a 35/65 man . These are not tough players . Would it not be better to have a guy as tough as Nails that will put up 30/30 then one of our big 4 ? I would love a big tough second line center that can put up points , fight and have players of other teams looking over their shoulder to see if the are going to be creamed by him . Makes them rush their passes = more scoring chances for the others . I believe that Benn would make more of a difference for these reason then Yak . Plus we need a second line center .
I am no expert just being honest and seeing our team for what is is right now .


Last edited by supert: 11-18-2012 at 08:36 AM.
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11-16-2012, 10:23 AM
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5RingsAndABeer View Post
Most 1st overall players are better than Benn, and Yakupov had pre-draft credentials slightly above average compared to most 1st overall players, so it is LIKELY that Yakupov will be better than Benn.
Yakupov's credentials are higher than the "average" first overall pick? Please, tell me what Kane's credentials were.

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11-16-2012, 12:18 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by supert View Post
I SEE THIS OFTEN ! I am an Oiler fan I have been one since they came into the NHL . Most first over all are better then Benn ? How ? More skill , yes ? Are they as tough ? No . Can we measure toughness ? No . Lets say all the Oiler players hit their ceil . Lets say Hall is a 45/45 man Eberle is a 40/40 man , Yak is a 50/30 man RNH is a 35/65 man . These are not tough players . Would it not be better to have a guy as tough as Nails that will put up 30/30 then one of our big 4 ? I would love a big tough second line center that can put up points , fight and have players of other teams looking over their shoulder to see if the are going to be creamed by him . Makes them rush their passes = more scoring chances for the others . I believe that Benn would make more of a difference for these reason then Yak . Plus we need a second line center .
I am no expert just being honest and seeing our team for what is is right now .
How about the Leafs give Colton Orr, Jay Rosehill, Tyler Biggs and Brad Ross to the Oilers for Ryan Nugent Hopkins?

RNH has more skill, yes, is he as tough? No.

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11-16-2012, 10:32 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Jtown View Post
Id trade couturier for yaukupov right now. IM a huge couturier fan and if he reaches his potential he will be much more valuable than a potential 40 goal winger.

But the flyers are so deep at center that they can afford a luxury item like Yakupov

Yakupov Giroux Simmonds
Hartnell Briere Voracek
Read Schenn Wellwood


That is a sick top 9 and it moves Schenn back to his natural center position , a position i think he is more valuable at
I don't see the Flyers as deep at center really. Briere is a train wreck defensively, and the effort is not there for long stretches of regular season games, and Schenn spent most of last year on the wing

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11-17-2012, 06:38 AM
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoDu View Post
I don't see the Flyers as deep at center really. Briere is a train wreck defensively, and the effort is not there for long stretches of regular season games, and Schenn spent most of last year on the wing
I'd like to see what Schenn can do as a center. It's his natural position. He only spent time at wing because he wasn't ready to contribute offensively like Briere as a 2nd line center and he couldn't beat out Couturier defensively as a 3rd line center. He got caught somewhere in the middle.

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11-17-2012, 11:08 AM
  #117
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Originally Posted by RoDu View Post
I don't see the Flyers as deep at center really. Briere is a train wreck defensively, and the effort is not there for long stretches of regular season games, and Schenn spent most of last year on the wing
Giroux, Briere, Schenn, Read, Talbot, Couturier can all play center. Schenn played wing all last year because they have too much center depth... Briere is the best point producer in the playoffs in the league since the lockout. Defensive faults forgiven.

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11-17-2012, 04:41 PM
  #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5RingsAndABeer View Post
Most 1st overall players are better than Benn, and Yakupov had pre-draft credentials slightly above average compared to most 1st overall players, so it is LIKELY that Yakupov will be better than Benn.
I believe you have this wrong, Yakupov credentials were below most 1st round picks, shoveling on a little thick are you not. I'd love to have Benn, but Yakupov has more potential.

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11-17-2012, 04:45 PM
  #119
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Not crazy to keep Couturier. If it wasn't for mono, it wouldn't have been insane to think he would have been the 1st pick in the draft.

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11-18-2012, 03:36 AM
  #120
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Yakupov has more trade value at this moment and if he hits anywhere close to his ceiling which i think should be around a 90+ point player which would make him absolutely more valuable than both Benn and Coutourier. I also remember hearin that forwards usually peak around the age of 22. IF THIS IS true then Benn is most likely a point per game player who gives a physical two way play every game who has pretty much peaked. Yakupov is most likely going to be more valuable than that and probably will hit point per game in his first season. Couturier is a good two way center who will most likely get better but i see his projection to be similar to Benn's a two way center that scores at a point per game pace. I strongly believe Edmonton should keep all their first round picks as two way players are easier to find than natural goal scorers. Elite players can make some decent players look really good and Gagner will benefit greatly from that. Gagner i believe was projected to be a play making center so his style will probably fit in nicely. I don't feel Edmonton needs this ELITE two way center because they have enough elite fire power that a regular third line center scoring maybe 12-15 goals is more than enough.

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11-18-2012, 08:26 AM
  #121
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Originally Posted by MastuhNinks View Post
How about the Leafs give Colton Orr, Jay Rosehill, Tyler Biggs and Brad Ross to the Oilers for Ryan Nugent Hopkins?

RNH has more skill, yes, is he as tough? No.
Not even close to want i am saying . Benn has skill too . Just not as much , but he brings other things we need right now

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Originally Posted by Phenomenon13 View Post
Yakupov has more trade value at this moment and if he hits anywhere close to his ceiling which i think should be around a 90+ point player which would make him absolutely more valuable than both Benn and Coutourier. I also remember hearin that forwards usually peak around the age of 22. IF THIS IS true then Benn is most likely a point per game player who gives a physical two way play every game who has pretty much peaked. Yakupov is most likely going to be more valuable than that and probably will hit point per game in his first season. Couturier is a good two way center who will most likely get better but i see his projection to be similar to Benn's a two way center that scores at a point per game pace. I strongly believe Edmonton should keep all their first round picks as two way players are easier to find than natural goal scorers. Elite players can make some decent players look really good and Gagner will benefit greatly from that. Gagner i believe was projected to be a play making center so his style will probably fit in nicely. I don't feel Edmonton needs this ELITE two way center because they have enough elite fire power that a regular third line center scoring maybe 12-15 goals is more than enough.
You may be right . A two way player also help prevent goals . A 60 point Benn playing a good 2 way game may make up for the extra point Yakupov may score . Also i would rather a big tough 2 way center when we are in the play offs and goal are hard to score .

Quote:
Originally Posted by WeridAl View Post
I believe you have this wrong, Yakupov credentials were below most 1st round picks, shoveling on a little thick are you not. I'd love to have Benn, but Yakupov has more potential.
I am an Oiler fan that thinks we should trade one of the big 4 for more of a balance team . D man or a big #2 C . But where on earth did you come up with this ? If Yak did not have an injury his draft year he would have been the most sought after 1 overall in a while


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11-18-2012, 10:10 AM
  #122
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Originally Posted by supert View Post
You may be right . A two way player also help prevent goals . A 60 point Benn playing a good 2 way game may make up for the extra point Yakupov may score . Also i would rather a big tough 2 way center when we are in the play offs and goal are hard to score .
I am all for adding Benn to the Oilers...I just don't think he is worth any of the big four. I think he is a scorer. Ott is the better physical/defensive player on that team...but somehow he is two inches shorter

It isn't a huge stretch to think any of the young Oilers could become very good defenders...and it definitely isn't a stretch to think they outscore Benn.

Also, I don't think Benn is ever going to be a Selke candidate. If we were talking about Bergeron or Hanzal or Backes...or Datsyuk then it would be different.

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11-18-2012, 11:11 AM
  #123
LatvianTwist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phenomenon13 View Post
Yakupov has more trade value at this moment and if he hits anywhere close to his ceiling which i think should be around a 90+ point player which would make him absolutely more valuable than both Benn and Coutourier. I also remember hearin that forwards usually peak around the age of 22. IF THIS IS true then Benn is most likely a point per game player who gives a physical two way play every game who has pretty much peaked. Yakupov is most likely going to be more valuable than that and probably will hit point per game in his first season. Couturier is a good two way center who will most likely get better but i see his projection to be similar to Benn's a two way center that scores at a point per game pace. I strongly believe Edmonton should keep all their first round picks as two way players are easier to find than natural goal scorers. Elite players can make some decent players look really good and Gagner will benefit greatly from that. Gagner i believe was projected to be a play making center so his style will probably fit in nicely. I don't feel Edmonton needs this ELITE two way center because they have enough elite fire power that a regular third line center scoring maybe 12-15 goals is more than enough.


This post is ridiculous. Benn has certainly not peaked yet, and Yakupov is certainly not a lock for 90+ points.

Also, if Benn's already peaked like you said, then how does he suddenly jump to PPG production when he's only ever put up 63 points (HF's favorite argument against him)?

PPG pace centers (you said it yourself) with great defensive play and strong physicality are worth less than 90 point wingers with a bit of a mean streak? Lolno. I'd take the former any day unless I'm set at center (which Edmonton isn't).

If you're not being a homer by saying Yakupov has more value, then I don't really know what to say.

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11-18-2012, 01:54 PM
  #124
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I am all for adding Benn to the Oilers...I just don't think he is worth any of the big four. I think he is a scorer. Ott is the better physical/defensive player on that team...but somehow he is two inches shorter
Steve Ott is on the Buffalo Sabres...

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11-18-2012, 02:12 PM
  #125
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Steve Ott is on the Buffalo Sabres...
not according to my nhl diorama

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