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Hockey At 9:35AM? Western Conference Finals Rematch Marlies @ Barons 11/13 9:35AM MDT

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11-14-2012, 08:35 PM
  #301
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Well of course they're better D. But then again we're talking night and day difference. SC champs vs 30th place finishers.

You think Toews and Kane would be out of the playoffs a lot on a team like the Oilers? You think they wouldn't be accomplishing more on this club?
toews would maybe, as he's likely a top-5 "all around" center on the planet, but i don't think kane would be at all... kane would likely be producing around the same level as hell has been, but without hall's intangibles

to put in plainly, no i don't think the oilers would be a better team is you took toews's and kane's at 18/19 year olds instead of hall/RNH as 18/19 year olds (if that makes sense)

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11-14-2012, 08:54 PM
  #302
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Originally Posted by Hynh View Post
What would the lineup look like with Kane and Toews instead of Eberle/RNH/Hall?

Smyth-Toews-Hemsky
Omark-Gagner-Kane
Paajarvi-Horcoff-Jones
Eager-Belanger-Lander

Smid-Gilbert
Sutton-Petry
Whitney-Peckham

Dubnyk
Khabibulin

Is that a playoff team to you? I don't think it is. A playoff team wouldn't have Khabibulin playing nearly half the minutes, an immobile Whitney, two 6D in Peckham/Sutton and the Swiss cheese that is the 4th line.
Why is it a 3 for 2 swap?

With RNH and Hall swapped for Toews Kane of course its a playoff team. Eberle still here. That was what I was arguing.

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11-14-2012, 08:57 PM
  #303
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They can usually be found on the Oilers main site.
Sure looks to me like Denis should have stopped that last shot by Gardiner.

http://video.oilers.nhl.com/videocen...id=DL|EDM|home

Looking at the boxscore I see that the Marlies earned a minor penalty and a ten minute misconduct for abuse of officials. Their coach was also thrown out of the game in the third period. Haven't seen any comment on that in this thread ... can anyone who watched the game tell us what brought that on?
It wasn't on any free link. I'm not sure anybody was watching. The radio announcer couldn't explain the call. He didn't know what happened either. We got real fortunate with all the PP's at the end. Marlies had 4 penalties in quick succession to get up back in the game.

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11-14-2012, 09:16 PM
  #304
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Why is it a 3 for 2 swap?

With RNH and Hall swapped for Toews Kane of course its a playoff team. Eberle still here. That was what I was arguing.
I just don't see it. Substituting a 30-30 winger for a healthier 30-45 winger, and a point-a-game injury plagued centre for a 70 point but superior in every intangible center doesn't make a 29 place team to a playoff team. Aside from a healthy Crosby or Malkin, I don't think there are any 1 or 2 players that are that big of upgrades on 2 of our 3 best players to jump 6-7 spots in the standings.

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11-14-2012, 09:21 PM
  #305
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I just don't see it. Substituting a 30-30 winger for a healthier 30-45 winger, and a point-a-game injury plagued centre for a 70 point but superior in every intangible center doesn't make a 29 place team to a playoff team. Aside from a healthy Crosby or Malkin, I don't think there are any 1 or 2 players that are that big of upgrades on 2 of our 3 best players to jump 6-7 spots in the standings.
Yes, this is a silly argument. look at how much worse the Hawks got when they lost Buff and Ladd. Kane and Toews are huge parts of that team but they don't on their own make them a playoff team.

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11-14-2012, 09:28 PM
  #306
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To look at the other point of view, would Chicago have missed the playoffs if Toews & Kane were substituted with RNH & Hall?

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11-14-2012, 09:39 PM
  #307
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Maybe. Who cares? Kane and Toews are quite a bit older than Hopkins and Hall. Not really a fair comparison atm.

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11-14-2012, 10:19 PM
  #308
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
Maybe. Who cares? Kane and Toews are quite a bit older than Hopkins and Hall. Not really a fair comparison atm.
Bingo, Toews won the cup 4 seasons after he was drafted (and Kane 3 years later), this would be year 2 for RNH and year 3 for Hall/Eberle. The difference being that they had a hell of a lot better supporting cast. http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/l...000352010.html

Wake me up when we have 12 skaters as good as their top 12 scorers were supporting Hall and RNH before we call our kids duds. Coincidentally since their depth took a hit they've lost in the 1st round 2 years in a row and maybe my memory is a little foggy, but I believe that we beat their ass pretty handily a few times in recent years.

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11-14-2012, 10:25 PM
  #309
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Toews won Keith his Norris trophy.

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11-14-2012, 10:29 PM
  #310
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
Maybe. Who cares? Kane and Toews are quite a bit older than Hopkins and Hall. Not really a fair comparison atm.
exactly. would Hall/RNH be better than Sedin/Sedin? Or Richards/Lacavelier? Or Seguin/Landeskog? or, or.?? these hypotheticals are... i dunno.

we have whom we have. foget abowd it (in my worst NY accent)

are we bored or what?

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11-14-2012, 10:32 PM
  #311
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Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
Bingo, Toews won the cup 4 seasons after he was drafted (and Kane 3 years later), this would be year 2 for RNH and year 3 for Hall/Eberle. The difference being that they had a hell of a lot better supporting cast. http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/l...000352010.html

Wake me up when we have 12 skaters as good as their top 12 scorers were supporting Hall and RNH before we call our kids duds. Coincidentally since their depth took a hit they've lost in the 1st round 2 years in a row and maybe my memory is a little foggy, but I believe that we beat their ass pretty handily a few times in recent years.
yeah. Toews was so defensivily superior that Gagner got 8 points on em. as it looks right now, when talking about the Blackhawks, how do you say 'flash in the pan'?

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11-14-2012, 10:46 PM
  #312
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Originally Posted by syz View Post
Toews won Keith his Norris trophy.
Yeah, I'm sure that Keith wouldn't mind if Toews pulled his ass out of the really good D pack and put him back in the truly elite D category again.

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yeah. Toews was so defensivily superior that Gagner got 8 points on em. as it looks right now, when talking about the Blackhawks, how do you say 'flash in the pan'?
Maybe not a flash in the pan, but a good example of how many quality players is needed to get the job done.

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11-14-2012, 11:18 PM
  #313
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To look at the other point of view, would Chicago have missed the playoffs if Toews & Kane were substituted with RNH & Hall?
In the last year?

Absolutely.

Its looking like an AHL team could miss the playoffs by substituting their top scorers of last year with RHN, Hall. (Plus Eberle and Schultz)

Good players make any team better. Or should.

Thats kind of the basis for my meandering.

We drop 4 good NHL ready players on the Barons and somehow this results in the club being far worse. Sorry, but that is being a huge question mark right now.

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11-14-2012, 11:26 PM
  #314
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In the last year?

Absolutely.

Its looking like an AHL team could miss the playoffs by substituting their top scorers of last year with RHN, Hall. (Plus Eberle and Schultz)

Good players make any team better. Or should.

Thats kind of the basis for my meandering.

We drop 4 good NHL ready players on the Barons and somehow this results in the club being far worse. Sorry, but that is being a huge question mark right now.
You do realize that the whole league got better right? That every time the opposition plays us it's their Stanley Cup game 7 performances? That our defense has 2-3 players that are the AHL equivalent of Jason Strudwick out there? Alex Plante is making Jason Strudwick look like Bobby Friggin' Orr.

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11-14-2012, 11:33 PM
  #315
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You do realize that the whole league got better right? That every time the opposition plays us it's their Stanley Cup game 7 performances? That our defense has 2-3 players that are the AHL equivalent of Jason Strudwick out there? Alex Plante is making Jason Strudwick look like Bobby Friggin' Orr.
A year ago you thought well of Teubert. Now he's chicken**** because, well, we need some theory on why the kids are not allright.

Theres no way this Barons club should be playing worse than it was last year. What it suggests is that some of our wonderkids don't really add as much to the equation as some people think. That even in the case of an AHL club their net benefit is in the red.

Its easy to see the flash in their game, their talents, but the allround game is seriously lacking and they're being exposed every other game for being substandard in ownzone or NZ play.

With the help of Schultz(who's out there with the stars anytime they get a chance) this unit should be tilting the ice on every shift. On a lot of them they are. When they're running around not even touching the puck..

ps I think we flatter ourselves if we think every AHL team has us pegged as their SC dream opponent. We're in 9th place in the conference. We'd be worse without loser pts.

I don't doubt that some career AHLers like kicking the kids in the junk because they can. But should it be this easy?

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11-14-2012, 11:50 PM
  #316
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First of all, I find it hard to believe someone who is so full of optimism when it comes to the Eskimos is so full of pessimism when it comes to the Oilers.

Second, it's pretty freaking obvious that the problem with the Barons is the lack of mobile defencemen and secondary scoring. The problem is not the two guys in the top five in league scoring, and the other guy who's got 3 goals in his first 5 games coming off seven months of no hockey.

Third, replace Toews and Kane with Hopkins and Hall + three years of development, and yes, the Blackhawks still make the playoffs last season.

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11-15-2012, 12:11 AM
  #317
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First of all, I find it hard to believe someone who is so full of optimism when it comes to the Eskimos is so full of pessimism when it comes to the Oilers.

Second, it's pretty freaking obvious that the problem with the Barons is the lack of mobile defencemen and secondary scoring. The problem is not the two guys in the top five in league scoring, and the other guy who's got 3 goals in his first 5 games coming off seven months of no hockey.

Third, replace Toews and Kane with Hopkins and Hall + three years of development, and yes, the Blackhawks still make the playoffs last season.
Imagine me being pessimistic about the fortunes of the undisputed longtime worst team in the league and the management that led to this.

It could be equally obvious that a lack of puck support, a lack of caring, and a lack of consistent effort by some forwards is leaving some D stranded.

GA is all about team effort. Do the Abbotsford Heat have better Defencemen, or better commitment to system?

Again lets reevaluate this. The team got worse, the GA got a lot worse, with these star players inserted into the lineup. Some of the same D that were here last year are here this year. The same goalie that was here last year is here this year.

Is it forbidden to cast a furtive glance at the sacred cows?

It seems obvious who represents the biggest change in the lineup.


Finally, 3 years for Hall and Eberle is THIS season. They're not even getting an AHL team in the playoffs at this rate.


Last edited by Replacement: 11-15-2012 at 12:17 AM.
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11-15-2012, 12:13 AM
  #318
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In the last year?

Absolutely.

Its looking like an AHL team could miss the playoffs by substituting their top scorers of last year with RHN, Hall. (Plus Eberle and Schultz)

Good players make any team better. Or should.

Thats kind of the basis for my meandering.

We drop 4 good NHL ready players on the Barons and somehow this results in the club being far worse. Sorry, but that is being a huge question mark right now.
This is getting confusing. You're using the superior 09-10 Hawks team to illustrate that Toews & Kane led them to the cup, but now you want to use last year's mediocre Hawks team to counter my point?

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11-15-2012, 12:16 AM
  #319
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This is getting confusing. You're using the superior 09-10 Hawks team to illustrate that Toews & Kane led them to the cup, but now you want to use last year's mediocre Hawks team to counter my point?
Fair enough. mybad This is what I get for no games being on and not being a basketball or NFL fan.

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11-15-2012, 12:35 AM
  #320
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Imagine me being pessimistic about the fortunes of the undisputed longtime worst team in the league and the management that led to this.

It could be equally obvious that a lack of puck support, a lack of caring, and a lack of consistent effort by some forwards is leaving some D stranded.

GA is all about team effort. Do the Abbotsford Heat have better Defencemen, or better commitment to system?

Again lets reevaluate this. The team got worse, the GA got a lot worse, with these star players inserted into the lineup. Some of the same D that were here last year are here this year. The same goalie that was here last year is here this year.

Is it forbidden to cast a furtive glance at the sacred cows?

It seems obvious who represents the biggest change in the lineup.


Finally, 3 years for Hall and Eberle is THIS season. They're not even getting an AHL team in the playoffs at this rate.
The team is 6-5-1 and Eberle and RNH are near the league leaders in points despite putting in half ass efforts. The team should be better as well as RNH and Eberle but lets relax with the sky is falling stuff. It seems that you are teetering on the edge of calling them busts in some form.

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11-15-2012, 12:42 AM
  #321
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The team is 6-5-1 and Eberle and RNH are near the league leaders in points despite putting in half ass efforts. The team should be better as well as RNH and Eberle but lets relax with the sky is falling stuff. It seems that you are teetering on the edge of calling them busts in some form.
The team is 6wins, 7losses. I never subscribe to the candy colored loser pts formula and I never do.

If one wants to separate all the Win Loss events properly we are:

5regulation wins 1OTW =6W's

5regulation losses. 1SO loss, 1OTL= 7L's

See what I mean?

As far as the pts the vast majority of pts ahve been PP pts. Anybody familiar with my posting history knows that I draw a huge distinction between the value of players driving EV, vs PP pts. Anybody can drive some PP pts, even Omark. The last thing I want for these kids is to be resting on PP laurels. I want them developing their FULL game.
Anybody that follows my posting knows I also value outscoring. Which the kids are barely doing despite this being in the AHL, and their playing with each other, AND a highly prized D free agent that was the signing of the summer. The resident Bobby Orr in effect(at least for the purposes of this level) There could be no mistake at all that Schultz is driving most of the pts the kids are seeing to this point.

Busts? No, when did I state that? I am concerned that development and becoming more well rounded players isn't presently occuring.

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11-15-2012, 12:46 AM
  #322
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The team is 6wins, 7losses. I never subscribe to the candy colored loser pts formula and I never do.

If one wants to separate all the Win Loss events properly we are:

5regulation wins 1OTW =6W's

5regulation losses. 1SO loss, 1OTL= 7L's

See what I mean?

As far as the pts the vast majority of pts ahve been PP pts. Anybody familiar with my posting history knows that I draw a huge distinction between the value of players driving EV, vs PP pts. Anybody can drive some PP pts, even Omark. The last thing I want for these kids is to be resting on PP laurels. I want them developing their FULL game.

Busts? No, when did I state that? I am concerned that development and becoming more well rounded players isn't presently occuring.
Busts in the sense that you are insinuating that their development has stagnated based on 12 AHL games. Hall and Eberle have only played 2 NHL seasons and RNH 1, there will still be some bumps in the road before they take off. I think that you're expecting too much from them too soon.

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11-15-2012, 12:53 AM
  #323
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Busts in the sense that you are insinuating that their development has stagnated based on 12 AHL games. Hall and Eberle have only played 2 NHL seasons and RNH 1, there will still be some bumps in the road before they take off. I think that you're expecting too much from them too soon.
No, on the basis of what I've noted of Nelsons body of work this year, and last, these players are being warehoused for the year and not learning a damned thing. Not being challenged, not being made to be interested.
Their performance, demeanor, when they show up, suggests boredom more than anything else.
If the coach was truly offering up enthralling learning opportunities they'd be captivated in how to springboard that into being better players. For instance how Baertshi and Horak are buying in in Abbotsford. Show young people a knowledgeable mentor that they can learn a lot from and I suspect they jump at the opportunity. Especially these Oiler kids, these are good kids.

I'm not seeing the best hockey from these young Oilers right now, I'm seeing their worst. That as I mention is cause for concern over 13 games.

Hall is excluded from that obviously because he hasn't played many games and is still feeling his way.

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11-15-2012, 01:02 AM
  #324
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No, on the basis of what I've noted of Nelsons body of work this year, and last, these players are being warehoused for the year and not learning a damned thing. Not being challenged, not being made to be interested.
Their performance, demeanor, when they show up, suggests boredom more than anything else.
If the coach was truly offering up enthralling learning opportunities they'd be captivated in how to springboard that into being better players. For instance how Baertshi and Horak are buying in in Abbotsford. Show young people a knowledgeable mentor that they can learn a lot from and I suspect they jump at the opportunity. Especially these Oiler kids, these are good kids.

I'm not seeing the best hockey from these young Oilers right now, I'm seeing their worst. That as I mention is cause for concern over 13 games.

Hall is excluded from that obviously because he hasn't played many games and is still feeling his way.
We are going to agree to disagree on Nelson so no use going down that road again.
I will say that RNH and Eberle putting in a half ass effort is more on them than the coach. If you look around the league, a lot of these NHLers aren't really lighting the league up. Look at the NHLers in the KHL as well. It's hard for them to get up for these games game in and game out after coming from a much more competitive league. There's not much for them to prove in this league.

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11-15-2012, 01:26 AM
  #325
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i am starting to think a lot of people on this thread no only under value the competition in the AHL, but really dont have a clue that the AHL is a completely different game than the NHL


Last edited by hyster110: 11-15-2012 at 07:49 AM.
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