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Does Anybody Here Remember Vera Lynn? (CBA & Lockout Discussion) XXVIII ‎

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Old
11-14-2012, 09:18 PM
  #226
guyincognito
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
Plan B was deemed illegal, but as I already covered, it was White's case that brought both sides back to the bargaining table. This is when PT negotiated the deal that FINALLY brought labor peace to the NFL and was renewed up to 2008.
With limited player movement to this day, non-guaranteed player contracts, and the least pay per capita of any of the 4 major sports.

Truly a visionary in player-owner relations. Or just a very weak union.

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11-14-2012, 09:23 PM
  #227
Mr Jiggyfly
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Originally Posted by guyincognito View Post
With limited player movement to this day, non-guaranteed player contracts, and the least pay per capita of any of the 4 major sports.

Truly a visionary in player-owner relations. Or just a very weak union.
Limited player movement? Ya if you mean Plan B.

The deal under PT gave players a great amount of freedom... Just ask Deion Sanders.

And the signing bonus has always been where the real money is at for NFL contracts, which is fully guaranteed.

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11-14-2012, 09:25 PM
  #228
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Originally Posted by Stix and Stones View Post
You never answered , why are teams selling for such a high price, because they lose millions per year. I see..
“It used to be you got bailed out when you sold your team even if you lost money year after year,” said Marc Ganis, president of SportsCorp Ltd., a consulting firm. “Now, you’re no longer assured of cashing out to cover your capital costs and losses.”

Also, if team valuation doesn't increase fast enough you can't recoup losses, now can you? TWELVE of the twenty-one WORST franchise investments since 2000 are NHL franchises.

Yes, some teams can ride on valuation. But that model is getting worse, which is why you see a change in team philosophy and a decrease from ~70% of revenue going to team salaries in the 90's is now 50% or below now. That's not a fluke.

Also, Maclean was saying on hockeycentral about a month ago that many of the minority owners in the league are now banks, who also happen to be the creditors for the teams. Since most teams don't have the actual month-to-month cashflow necessary to actually run the team, they rely a lot on debt service. It is in the bank's best interest to ensure more financial stability in the league so that these teams can continue to make their payments without defaulting.

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11-14-2012, 09:26 PM
  #229
CerebralGenesis
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
Limited player movement? Ya if you mean Plan B.

The deal under PT gave players a great amount of freedom... Just ask Deion Sanders.

And the signing bonus has always been where the real money is at for NFL contracts, which is fully guaranteed.
Only agreed portions of bonuses are guaranteed. Not in full.

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11-14-2012, 09:27 PM
  #230
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
Limited player movement? Ya if you mean Plan B.

The deal under PT gave players a great amount of freedom... Just ask Deion Sanders.

And the signing bonus has always been where the real money is at for NFL contracts, which is fully guaranteed.
And this doesn't change the fact NFL's contracts aren't guarantee.

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11-14-2012, 09:27 PM
  #231
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No salary cap and forget percentages and all that other BS. UFA at 28. Cut out the stupid draft lottery and award the #1 pick to the worst team. Owners can get out of a contract by buying out the player at 40% of what he's owed.

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11-14-2012, 09:29 PM
  #232
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And this doesn't change the fact NFL's contracts aren't guarantee.
Yeah but they still count against the cap. So you can't just cut someone without any ramifications.

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11-14-2012, 09:29 PM
  #233
guyincognito
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
Limited player movement? Ya if you mean Plan B.

The deal under PT gave players a great amount of freedom... Just ask Deion Sanders.

And the signing bonus has always been where the real money is at for NFL contracts, which is fully guaranteed.
Yes, the franchise tag is limited player movement, everyone can re-up their top FA and keep negotiating rights. And stop trying to spin non-guaranteed. I want to see a NHL environment when you can go up to aging players on big deals and make them re-structure their deals or they get cut.

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11-14-2012, 09:31 PM
  #234
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Originally Posted by ScottyBowman View Post
Yeah but they still count against the cap. So you can't just cut someone without any ramifications.
You just re-structure a few other guys deals. Yeah, it's kicking the can down the road but it is what it is.

The NFL is an awful example to use because there are things in the NFL CBA, to this day, that if the NHL went for, would end the league.

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11-14-2012, 09:32 PM
  #235
Mr Jiggyfly
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Originally Posted by CerebralGenesis View Post
Only agreed portions of bonuses are guaranteed. Not in full.
Signing bonuses are guaranteed and paid upfront.

Roster bonuses,etc are not.

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11-14-2012, 09:33 PM
  #236
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As a relatively new NFL fan, the cuts they have in that sport are shocking to me. In hockey guys begin a long, slow decline. They get demoted down lines, and finally the stars have a farewell tour season.

I liked star guys in the NFL and before I can blink, they're done. Like out. Heinz Ward is the most recent example I can think of. What do you think would happen to Gomez in the NFL? lol.

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11-14-2012, 09:33 PM
  #237
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i go to the nhl website, for the first time in weeks. i figure maybe, just maybe, we have positive news or at least SOME news. No, I see all stuff from the past........thats nice........ id really love to see present current players, playing hockey right now. at the bottom of the headlines i see "winter classic cancelled". what is going on with this!!!!??? its time to **** or get off the pot!!

both sides are dropping the ball on this. if push comes to shove, and the league says their canceling the rest of the season if deal isnt done by X date, i think only than, will we get a deal. i hope it dont come to that, but its already november 14th, december is coming up fast. when is the point of no return???

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11-14-2012, 09:33 PM
  #238
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Originally Posted by ScottyBowman View Post
Yeah but they still count against the cap. So you can't just cut someone without any ramifications.
No, only the pro-rated portion of signing bonus is counted against cap, not the whole deal.

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11-14-2012, 09:35 PM
  #239
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Originally Posted by mossey3535 View Post
As a relatively new NFL fan, the cuts they have in that sport are shocking to me. In hockey guys begin a long, slow decline. They get demoted down lines, and finally the stars have a farewell tour season.

I liked star guys in the NFL and before I can blink, they're done. Like out. Heinz Ward is the most recent example I can think of. What do you think would happen to Gomez in the NFL? lol.
He would have been cut years ago and playing for $1.5M a year. Yeah he would have been bonused big-time when he signed but there's no way he gets his entire deal (or the lions share he'll get if he gets bought out).

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11-14-2012, 09:39 PM
  #240
Mr Jiggyfly
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Originally Posted by guyincognito View Post
Yes, the franchise tag is limited player movement, everyone can re-up their top FA and keep negotiating rights. And stop trying to spin non-guaranteed. I want to see a NHL environment when you can go up to aging players on big deals and make them re-structure their deals or they get cut.
The franchise tag ensures a player gets paid within the top 5 players at his position. Not exactly the draconian clause you are trying to make it out to be.

Many players who restructure their deals make out quite well as they receive portions of their prorated salary as an upfront bonus.

Once again, not quite as bad as you want to make it sound.

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11-14-2012, 09:40 PM
  #241
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mossey3535 View Post
As a relatively new NFL fan, the cuts they have in that sport are shocking to me. In hockey guys begin a long, slow decline. They get demoted down lines, and finally the stars have a farewell tour season.

I liked star guys in the NFL and before I can blink, they're done. Like out. Heinz Ward is the most recent example I can think of. What do you think would happen to Gomez in the NFL? lol.
You are a new NFL fan then lol, Ward played and starred FOREVER for the Steelers. I know the case you're making, that's just a funny example.

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11-14-2012, 09:41 PM
  #242
Mr Jiggyfly
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Originally Posted by tripleX View Post
And this doesn't change the fact NFL's contracts aren't guarantee.
If you want dead money on your cap, sure.

Most teams would prefer to restructure the deal, and the player makes out quite well in many of these cases.

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11-14-2012, 09:43 PM
  #243
guyincognito
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
The franchise tag ensures a player gets paid within the top 5 players at his position. Not exactly the draconian clause you are trying to make it out to be.

Many players who restructure their deals make out quite well as they receive portions of their prorated salary as an upfront bonus.

Once again, not quite as bad as you want to make it sound.
It's completely draconian because it's for one year and keeps them off the market and lets the team retain the rights for I believe, 3 years if they want to keep using it. Which means they can use the player up at an escalating price, take that long to attempt to sign him, or trade a UFA for a return.

"Hey, Zach Parise, we're tagging you, so you get paid $7.5M next season." Then he blows out his knee again.

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11-14-2012, 09:47 PM
  #244
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You are a new NFL fan then lol, Ward played and starred FOREVER for the Steelers. I know the case you're making, that's just a funny example.
Yeah I know, but I didn't have the means to watch NFL regularly when I was a kid. In comparison I've been playing and watching hockey since I was 5. I remember the first time I was allowed to stay up to watch the western playoff games on CBC.

I don't know one tenth of what you guys know about the game or the league - I'm not familiar with the histories etc. Whereas for the NHL I've read all those books like Home Game. When I was a young I used to read these children's books about the glorious history of each of the original six franchises.

I also never played football, and I think to really get the subtle nuances you have to had played it at some level.

So I still consider myself a noob/casual NFL fan although I've watched every weekend now for a lot of years. And I really liked Ward lol.

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11-14-2012, 09:47 PM
  #245
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Yeah but how many people are going to make a special trip there to do it? When you are headed to a game anyway it's not a big deal. The people that still do it will find a more convenient place to do it. I live 40 miles from the arena.

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11-14-2012, 09:49 PM
  #246
tripleX
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
The franchise tag ensures a player gets paid within the top 5 players at his position. Not exactly the draconian clause you are trying to make it out to be.

Many players who restructure their deals make out quite well as they receive portions of their prorated salary as an upfront bonus.

Once again, not quite as bad as you want to make it sound.
There are two types of reconstructing contracts in NFL. The first is to increase cap room by asking players to reconstruct their contracts to convert salary to bonus. This is the one you mentioned.

The second is to ask players to take a pay cut or being released. Players only loses in this case. You obviously "forgot" about this.

And again, NFL teams can cut players to crease cap room when the pro-rated singing bonus is less than salary. Most players do not have huge amount of singing bonus to prevent this from happening in the later part of the contracts.

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Old
11-14-2012, 09:50 PM
  #247
Mr Jiggyfly
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Originally Posted by guyincognito View Post
It's completely draconian because it's for one year and keeps them off the market and lets the team retain the rights for I believe, 3 years if they want to keep using it. Which means they can use the player up at an escalating price, take that long to attempt to sign him, or trade a UFA for a return.

"Hey, Zach Parise, we're tagging you, so you get paid $7.5M next season." Then he blows out his knee again.
Hey Zach, you will be paid the avg of the top 5 players at your position for two years (term limit), then you can hit UFA.

How terrible for him.

Not to mention that there is only one franchise tag and 53 roster spots. Once a guy gets tagged, it can't be used again until that player signs a long term deal.

So there are only at most, 32 franchise tag designations during any one FA period.

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11-14-2012, 09:50 PM
  #248
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
If you want dead money on your cap, sure.

Most teams would prefer to restructure the deal, and the player makes out quite well in many of these cases.
Not true, when pro-rated bonus is less than salary, cutting a player actually create more cap room even with dead money.

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11-14-2012, 09:52 PM
  #249
mossey3535
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Originally Posted by tripleX View Post
There are two types of reconstructing contracts in NFL. The first is to increase cap room by asking players to reconstruct their contracts to convert salary to bonus. This is the one you mentioned.

The second is to ask players to take a pay cut or being released. Players only loses in this case. You obviously "forgot" about this.

And again, NFL teams can cut players to crease cap room when the pro-rated singing bonus is less than salary. Most players do not have huge amount of singing bonus to prevent this from happening in the later part of the contracts.
See, this is exactly why I don't get into debates about NFL contracts and stuff that I don't know anything about.

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11-14-2012, 09:53 PM
  #250
jeety mcjeet
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Originally Posted by guyincognito View Post
It's completely draconian because it's for one year and keeps them off the market and lets the team retain the rights for I believe, 3 years if they want to keep using it. Which means they can use the player up at an escalating price, take that long to attempt to sign him, or trade a UFA for a return.

"Hey, Zach Parise, we're tagging you, so you get paid $7.5M next season." Then he blows out his knee again.
So Gomez and Redden type contracts are more fair and better for the league as a whole than the NFL's franchise tag rule? Nope. Also when you put it that way you make earning $7.5 mill sound so bad. Its really hard to make earning $7.5 million in one year sound bad FYI.

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