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Off-season Madness the 3rd: Jeffrey Loria taketh and Jeffrey Loria giveth away

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Old
11-14-2012, 10:01 PM
  #951
Ohio Jones
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Originally Posted by Sokil View Post
I'm fine with Bona taking a regular role with either 2B or LF; I like what he brings to the table on the field and on the base path.

Rasmus, while defensively okay, flat out cannot hit - and having Izturis on 2B full time (?) is practically a lateral move to keeping Kelly Johnson...

so we've got potential bums on first, second, and center. I know that in a perfect world, Rasmus finally 'reaches his potential', Izturis has an up year, and Lind isn't waiver wire fodder anymore....but that's a lot of finger crossing
Encarnacion is the 1B... But assuming you mean Lind (who should platoon DH), Lind hits righties just fine. His numbers suck when you put him in against lefties, hence the need for a platoon. He's not going anywhere, much as we might wish it, so you make best use of him.

You don't count on your middle infielders to produce, so with Reyes a very good offensive weapon, you're already above average down the middle. Izturis is not a big bat, but he gets on base better than Aviles would have, and he's best defensively at 2B.

And Rasmus absolutely CAN hit, he just doesn't do it consistently. I believe a season with Mottola will help, but even if it doesn't, you don't count on the guys down the middle for offence, so he'll be just fine hitting in the 6 or 7 spot.

Point is, none of these guys are bums. Used properly they're all at least average in their respective positions, which - given the plus players we have elsewhere on the field and in the batting order - is plenty good enough for this to be a contending team.

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Old
11-14-2012, 10:02 PM
  #952
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I think they are severely underestimating how decimated by injuries last year. *knock on wood* but if we can avoid the injury bug as bad as last year that in itself is huge.
I think we finished the year with 6 or 7 players on the 60 day dl. That's just insane. Injuries killed this team.

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Old
11-14-2012, 10:05 PM
  #953
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Ideally the Jays would find a new home for Lind to save salary. Then use that money to spend on a free agent with a little bit more bat power then Davis/Bonifacio/Gose etc.

Any ideas on what Shane Victorino is asking on the open market?

What about Cody Ross? (Just out of spite to the Red Sox)

Or trade for Shin Soo Choo

Or my least favourite, favourite choice Melky Cabrera

SS Reyes
CF Rasmus
RF Bautista
1B Encarnacion
LF Victorino/Ross/Choo/Cabrera
etc...

Even if nobody here agrees with who I would like to see in LF, the fact that the Marlins trade makes the Jays biggest concern LF (a position where we could upgrade, but have an abundance of capable players) is just so refreshing.

Also for everyone talking about Josh Johnson leaving the team already, I think everyone needs to just take a deep breath and feel satisfied that we pulled off the heist of a lifetime.

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Old
11-14-2012, 10:06 PM
  #954
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Originally Posted by dredeye View Post
Izturis at 2nd base saved the jays about 3 million at least a year which makes it not at all a lateral move. Rasmus can hit he's just streaky.
he hit 'alright' (269) in the first half but in the second he was well below the mendoza line. that's not streaky, that's just play suckage.

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Old
11-14-2012, 10:10 PM
  #955
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found it interesting shi davidi was one of the baseball writers voting for the AL Cy Young
he voted David Price , and that was the difference maker

14 for price
13 for verlander

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11-14-2012, 10:11 PM
  #956
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This is how i want to see the team next season:

Batting Order:

SS - Jose Reyes
LF - Melky Cabrera
RF - Jose Bautista
1B - Justin Mourneau
DH - Edwin Encarnacion
CF - Colby Rasmus
3B - Brett Lawrie
C - JP Arencibia
2B - Emilio Bonifacio/Maicer Izturis

Bench:

INF - Emilio Bonifacio/Maicer Izturis
INF - Mike McCoy
OF - Rajai Davis
C - Bobby Wilson

Starting Rotation:

Josh Johnson
Ricky Romero
Brendan Morrow
Mark Buerhle
JA Happ/ Rookie if Happ Traded

Bullpen:

CL - Sergio Santos
SU - Darren Oliver
SU - Casey Janssen
RP - Brad Lincoln
RP - Esmil Rogers
RP - Brett Cecil
RP - Jeremy Jeffress or Steve Delabar

This team would be ridiciulous. Lots of money, but a contender for a championship.

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Old
11-14-2012, 10:12 PM
  #957
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Quote:
Originally Posted by departures89 View Post
Ideally the Jays would find a new home for Lind to save salary. Then use that money to spend on a free agent with a little bit more bat power then Davis/Bonifacio/Gose etc.

Any ideas on what Shane Victorino is asking on the open market?

What about Cody Ross? (Just out of spite to the Red Sox)

Or trade for Shin Soo Choo

Or my least favourite, favourite choice Melky Cabrera

SS Reyes
CF Rasmus
RF Bautista
1B Encarnacion
LF Victorino/Ross/Choo/Cabrera
etc...

Even if nobody here agrees with who I would like to see in LF, the fact that the Marlins trade makes the Jays biggest concern LF (a position where we could upgrade, but have an abundance of capable players) is just so refreshing.

Also for everyone talking about Josh Johnson leaving the team already, I think everyone needs to just take a deep breath and feel satisfied that we pulled off the heist of a lifetime.
whoever gets to bat 2nd sees a ton of fastballs
i go with Rasmus there as well

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Old
11-14-2012, 10:20 PM
  #958
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Originally Posted by Leafin View Post
This is how i want to see the team next season:

Batting Order:

SS - Jose Reyes
LF - Melky Cabrera
RF - Jose Bautista
1B - Justin Mourneau
DH - Edwin Encarnacion
CF - Colby Rasmus
3B - Brett Lawrie
C - JP Arencibia
2B - Emilio Bonifacio/Maicer Izturis

Bench:

INF - Emilio Bonifacio/Maicer Izturis
INF - Mike McCoy
OF - Rajai Davis
C - Bobby Wilson

Starting Rotation:

Josh Johnson
Ricky Romero
Brendan Morrow
Mark Buerhle
JA Happ/ Rookie if Happ Traded

Bullpen:

CL - Sergio Santos
SU - Darren Oliver
SU - Casey Janssen
RP - Brad Lincoln
RP - Esmil Rogers
RP - Brett Cecil
RP - Jeremy Jeffress or Steve Delabar

This team would be ridiciulous. Lots of money, but a contender for a championship.
If we're gonna have to shell out a lot of cash for a LF, I'd rather have Hamilton due to his offensive abilities, but Melky's age makes him a bit more appealing, its a tough choice.

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Old
11-14-2012, 10:20 PM
  #959
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Originally Posted by Sokil View Post
he hit 'alright' (269) in the first half but in the second he was well below the mendoza line. that's not streaky, that's just play suckage.
...was reported he was playing hurt July onwards. We'll see which version of Rasmus shows up next spring.

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Old
11-14-2012, 10:33 PM
  #960
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This is how i want to see the team next season: Well thought out proposals
I like it, but I disagree with your batting order and bullpen order. I believe that Jansen will be given every chance as the closer at the beginning of the season based on his performance last season, though I think Santos will be next in line as the set-up man. Additionally I would think that Bonofacio based on his abilities on the bases and alright wOBA as the 2nd hitter in the line-up.

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Old
11-14-2012, 10:34 PM
  #961
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Originally Posted by Brody View Post
If we're gonna have to shell out a lot of cash for a LF, I'd rather have Hamilton due to his offensive abilities, but Melky's age makes him a bit more appealing, its a tough choice.
Teams won't be lining up for Melky this offseason. I'd be surprised if he gets more than a 5 million / 1 - 2 year deal.

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Old
11-14-2012, 10:39 PM
  #962
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sokil View Post
he hit 'alright' (269) in the first half but in the second he was well below the mendoza line. that's not streaky, that's just play suckage.
He didn't get to see as many fastballs as he'd like to with Jose on the DL, his nagging groin injury probably was a problem, and he was getting the kitchen sink. I think he was too focused on putting the team on his back with Lawrie and Jose out so he was swinging at bad pitches. We saw Edwin go all elite mode, but I think Rasmus was trying to replicate that.

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Old
11-14-2012, 10:43 PM
  #963
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sokil View Post
he hit 'alright' (269) in the first half but in the second he was well below the mendoza line. that's not streaky, that's just play suckage.
He hit .259/.328/.494/.821 in the first half and that's pretty good. No idea why you're looking at just batting average. He was unlucky all season long too -- hit tons of balls hard that just kept finding gloves.

Hit .176/.238/.278/.515 in the 2nd half. I have to assume he was injured because every part of his game completely disappeared. Strikeouts went up like crazy, walks went down, power totally vanished, defense was bad. His August and September are particularly where he showed nothing.

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Old
11-14-2012, 10:45 PM
  #964
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Originally Posted by dredeye View Post
I think we finished the year with 6 or 7 players on the 60 day dl. That's just insane. Injuries killed this team.
I put the injuries to our pitchers and Joey Bats on the timeline of our record (Games wrt .500 taken from http://www.pennant-race.com/custom_baseball_graph)



Pretty depressing picture. Losing 3/5ths of your rotation in a week, and we never recovered from Bautista getting hurt. Doesn't even include Lawrie gone for a month and Romero falling apart. We can't be that unlucky next year can we?!

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Old
11-14-2012, 11:00 PM
  #965
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If we're gonna have to shell out a lot of cash for a LF, I'd rather have Hamilton due to his offensive abilities, but Melky's age makes him a bit more appealing, its a tough choice.
It's not remotely a tough choice, in that Hamilton will demand far more in term and salary than the Jays are going to be willing to agree to, and Cabrera's limited window of good production came conspicuously in the 18 months before he got nailed for PEDs.

The answer is, neither guy is a good fit for the Jays. If you want to spend in LF, you try for Pagan, Victorino, Ross... or you look to shake a heavier bat loose with Arencibia. But it's nothing you *have* to do now, you can wait for a mid-season trade if necessary.

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Old
11-14-2012, 11:25 PM
  #966
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Honestly, I think the Jays need to look into hiring a new training/medical staff as injuries on that level are simply ridiculous. Albeit many of them were freak injuries, still, thats just silly.

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Old
11-14-2012, 11:26 PM
  #967
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Originally Posted by Leo Getz View Post
I put the injuries to our pitchers and Joey Bats on the timeline of our record (Games wrt .500 taken from http://www.pennant-race.com/custom_baseball_graph)



Pretty depressing picture. Losing 3/5ths of your rotation in a week, and we never recovered from Bautista getting hurt. Doesn't even include Lawrie gone for a month and Romero falling apart. We can't be that unlucky next year can we?!
I hope not. Adding Reyes, Johnson and Buerhle makes us VERY good. If we can add a second basemen and another hitter (preferably LF) through trade or FA, this team should have a shot at the World Series. Obviously anything can happen, but we just became really good and if Izturis is the backup 2nd basemen/SS this team will be able to get through most injuries in the infield with little damage. If Ricky can rebound and guys stay healthy there's no telling what this team can do.

Love the starting rotation!

1. Johnson
2. Romero
3. Morrow
4. Buerhle
5. Happ/veteran righty

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Old
11-14-2012, 11:28 PM
  #968
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It's not remotely a tough choice, in that Hamilton will demand far more in term and salary than the Jays are going to be willing to agree to, and Cabrera's limited window of good production came conspicuously in the 18 months before he got nailed for PEDs.

The answer is, neither guy is a good fit for the Jays. If you want to spend in LF, you try for Pagan, Victorino, Ross... or you look to shake a heavier bat loose with Arencibia. But it's nothing you *have* to do now, you can wait for a mid-season trade if necessary.
I'm pretty convinced that LF is not going to be addressed whatsoever this offseason.

I think the next move is a LH bat that can play 1st/DH... and that may be it. If this bat can play a corner OF position than its just gravy.

With this payroll the Jays are primed to insert a couple of rookies/young players into the lineup over the next year. I think Gose and D'Arnaud will both be Blue Jays by September. They should be able to continue on their curve and earn regular roles as well as being cost effective options

Obviously a ton can happen... but I think this is the "longterm" aka half a year down the road outlook:

SS Jose Reyes
2B Emilio Bonifacio
RF Jose Bautista
DH Edwin Encarnacion
1B
3B Brett Lawrie
CF Colby Rasmus
C T. D'Arnaud
LF A. Gose

Bench:
Izturis
Davis

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Old
11-14-2012, 11:30 PM
  #969
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Honestly, I think the Jays need to look into hiring a new training/medical staff as injuries on that level are simply ridiculous. Albeit many of them were freak injuries, still, thats just silly.
What would a different medical staff have done this year?

Predict the future and tell Farrell to go out to the mound and pull Drabek before he threw his 38th pitch in the game he wrecked his elbow?

Tell Bautista that he shouldn't swing at the 0-2 pitch at Yankee stadium because his wrist needs a rest?

The medical staff is for AFTER the player gets initially injured. They assess them, help them treat the injury and then rehab back to 100%. By all accounts, they were able to do this adequately this past season.

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Old
11-14-2012, 11:31 PM
  #970
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It's not remotely a tough choice, in that Hamilton will demand far more in term and salary than the Jays are going to be willing to agree to, and Cabrera's limited window of good production came conspicuously in the 18 months before he got nailed for PEDs.

The answer is, neither guy is a good fit for the Jays. If you want to spend in LF, you try for Pagan, Victorino, Ross... or you look to shake a heavier bat loose with Arencibia. But it's nothing you *have* to do now, you can wait for a mid-season trade if necessary.
Pagan and Victorino will likely get some good money and they will most likely sign to play CF.

I think Melky Cabrera makes a lot of sense for the Jays. Maybe the PED's really helped him but its no sure thing he was using it in 2011. Had some decent years with the Yankees too as a pretty young player. I'd take a gamble on him at a reasonable 1 year deal. I doubt teams are lining up to give him multiple years + good money -- most likely will settle for a 1 year deal and try to re-establish value.

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Old
11-14-2012, 11:34 PM
  #971
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Honestly, I think the Jays need to look into hiring a new training/medical staff as injuries on that level are simply ridiculous. Albeit many of them were freak injuries, still, thats just silly.
It's not NHL 13, you don't just spend more points of the medical staff and reduce injuries by 75%.

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Old
11-14-2012, 11:38 PM
  #972
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you don't count on the guys down the middle for offence, so he'll be just fine hitting in the 6 or 7 spot.
of the top 30 hitters in baseball, 7 are CFs...that's more than any single position

I don't buy into this 'down the middle' stereotype you have, it doesn't hold water

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Old
11-14-2012, 11:38 PM
  #973
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Honestly, I think the Jays need to look into hiring a new training/medical staff as injuries on that level are simply ridiculous. Albeit many of them were freak injuries, still, thats just silly.
Injuries happen so its not their fault. Turf doesn't help. I dunno, maybe they can look at some of the stuff they do with their young pitchers because they have had quite a few pitchers blow out their arm while you look at what Tampa and White Sox with their pitchers -- incredible track record of health.

Possible Jays may have already looked into this as they were doing the piggyback with the Big 3 in Lansing -- seems like they want to limit their innings quite a bit in their teenage years.

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11-14-2012, 11:41 PM
  #974
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Anyone think rogers is only doing this to help their view in the public eye? Pretty much anyone you talk to hates being rogers customers or has hated them so much they have gone to an independent cellphone, internet, tv provider.

If the Jays succeed it will make them look like heros. They probably figure 190 mil is a drop in the bucket to the PR face turn it will give them.(sorry for the rastlin analogy)

Not that I'm complaining

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11-14-2012, 11:42 PM
  #975
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What's the hockey equivalent of this trade? Everyone's talking about it, but I don't know the players so I can't really 100% understand the excitement.

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