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Old
11-14-2012, 09:09 PM
  #526
Vankiller Whale
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Yeah, and that was with a playoff team to put them over the top. Toronto's one of the worst teams in the league.
Their goals for were above average. Their goals against was abysmal. I'm guessing that going from argubly the worst starter in the league to a 3x Vezina nominated goaltender would drastically change that.

Not to mention that free agents this year(Getzlaf, Weiss, Zajac, etc) would be far more inclined to sign with a team looking to contend now.

How does:

JVR-Getzlaf/Weiss-Kessel
Kadri-Grabovski-Kulemin

As a top-6 look?(Possibly sub in Lupul if a different package is used)

along with a D core of Phaneuf/Gardiner/Liles/Gunnarsson with Holzer and Rielly pushing for roster spots?

And of course, Luongo in net.

Of course, if Burke decides to stick it out for another couple of years trying to rebuild, Lupul would likely walk and try to find a cup ring somewhere. The year after Phaneuf an Kessel are UFAs. With no signs of on ice improvement or stable goaltending, they'd also be looking to find a cup ring. Lupul and Phaneuf would be almost 30, and Kessel likely wouldn't want to stick around wasting prime years.

Keeping with a losing atmosphere would be a huge mistake.


Last edited by Vankiller Whale: 11-14-2012 at 09:18 PM.
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11-14-2012, 09:12 PM
  #527
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My deal WILL happen. I feel confident today.

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Old
11-14-2012, 09:12 PM
  #528
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
That's absolutely fine. Luongo has a value to us, and if somebody else is willing to give more, then they should absolutely trade him there.

BTW, what do you think the Panthers are actually prepared to offer? At the end of the day, that's what determines a player's market value, and so far (at least in this thread), there only seems to be 1 team interested.
Well...you are offering Mac (redundant for Van), Komi (seriously....negative value), and a protected 1st. It really wouln't take
much for FLA or EDM to better that. Even if FLA had to include a dump, Upshall would be way more usefull than Komi.

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11-14-2012, 09:13 PM
  #529
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My deal WILL happen.
Not if it includes Rrraaayyyymmmooonnnddd!!!

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11-14-2012, 09:16 PM
  #530
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Well...you are offering Mac (redundant for Van), Komi (seriously....negative value), and a protected 1st. It really wouln't take
much for FLA or EDM to better that. Even if FLA had to include a dump, Upshall would be way more usefull than Komi.
I actually believe he said Komisarek was off the table.

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11-14-2012, 09:21 PM
  #531
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Not if it includes Rrraaayyyymmmooonnnddd!!!
Believe it baby!

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11-14-2012, 09:26 PM
  #532
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I actually believe he said Komisarek was off the table.
Ummmm...i don't really know what to say here....

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11-14-2012, 09:28 PM
  #533
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Their goals for were above average. Their goals against was abysmal. I'm guessing that going from argubly the worst starter in the league to a 3x Vezina nominated goaltender would drastically change that.

Not to mention that free agents this year(Getzlaf, Weiss, Zajac, etc) would be far more inclined to sign with a team looking to contend now.

How does:

JVR-Getzlaf/Weiss-Kessel
Kadri-Grabovski-Kulemin

As a top-6 look?(Possibly sub in Lupul if a different package is used)

along with a D core of Phaneuf/Gardiner/Liles/Gunnarsson with Holzer and Rielly pushing for roster spots?

And of course, Luongo in net.

Of course, if Burke decides to stick it out for another couple of years trying to rebuild, Lupul would likely walk and try to find a cup ring somewhere. The year after Phaneuf an Kessel are UFAs. With no signs of on ice improvement or stable goaltending, they'd also be looking to find a cup ring. Lupul and Phaneuf would be almost 30, and Kessel likely wouldn't want to stick around wasting prime years.

Keeping with a losing atmosphere would be a huge mistake.
There's a thing called a cap, and with no rollback on the table from either side and a 50/50 split of revenues, that 'aint gonna work. A guy like Getzlaf, or Luongo.

It also looks a lot better with a $1.3m 25 year old young starting goalie in net. If you're Ryan Getzlaf, do you want to join a team with Martin Brodeur or Jonathan Quick in net? Of course, no guarantees as to Reimer's success at this point (which is what generates the willingness to commit dollars, years, and some assets to Luongo), but if you trade for Luongo, you help ensure he doesn't succeed, and there is a cap to just how much we're prepared to part with in terms of assets to do that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Well...you are offering Mac (redundant for Van), Komi (seriously....negative value), and a protected 1st. It really wouln't take
much for FLA or EDM to better that. Even if FLA had to include a dump, Upshall would be way more usefull than Komi.
Not sure what makes you think I'm offering Komisarek... The Leafs actually need him with Schenn gone and Vancouver certainly doesn't. Another example of a player who is going to be valued higher by the Leafs than the Canucks. Upshall would likely be comparable to Lombardi, with an extra year on a contract in a year likely to be one where tons of teams are shedding salary.

You talk in theory about Florida or Edmonton coming up with something better... let's hear it, and then we'll truly examine whether or not that's better.


Last edited by seanlinden: 11-14-2012 at 09:39 PM.
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Old
11-14-2012, 09:38 PM
  #534
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There's a thing called a cap, and with no rollback on the table from either side and a 50/50 split of revenues, that 'aint gonna work. A guy like Getzlaf, or Luongo.

It also looks a lot better with a $1.3m 25 year old young starting goalie in net. If you're Ryan Getzlaf, do you want to join a team with Martin Brodeur or Jonathan Quick in net? Of course, no guarantees as to Reimer's success at this point (which is what generates the willingness to commit dollars, years, and some assets to Luongo), but if you trade for Luongo, you help ensure he doesn't succeed, and there is a cap to just how much we're prepared to part with in terms of assets to do that.
CAPGEEK.COM USER GENERATED ROSTER
My Custom Lineup
FORWARDS
James Van Riemsdyk ($4.250m) / Ryan Getzlaf ($5.325m) / Phil Kessel ($5.400m)
Nazem Kadri ($1.720m) / Mikhail Grabovski ($5.500m) / Nikolai Kulemin ($2.800m)
Clarke MacArthur ($3.250m) / Tyler Bozak ($1.500m) / Matt Frattin ($0.925m)
Colton Orr ($1.000m) / Jay McClement ($1.500m) / Carter Ashton ($1.040m)
DEFENSEMEN
Jake Gardiner ($1.117m) / Dion Phaneuf ($6.500m)
Carl Gunnarsson ($1.325m) / John-Michael Liles ($3.875m)
Korbinian Holzer ($0.575m) / Morgan Rielly ($1.775m)
GOALTENDERS
Roberto Luongo ($5.333m)
James Reimer ($1.800m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
SALARY CAP: $70,200,000; CAP PAYROLL: $56,510,000; BONUSES: $2,112,500
CAP SPACE (20-man roster): $13,690,000

Getzlaf might sign for a 1-1.5 mil more, but if you keep Macarthur it's likely he gets a paycut too. Still, fits rather well under the cap.

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Old
11-14-2012, 09:41 PM
  #535
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
CAPGEEK.COM USER GENERATED ROSTER
My Custom Lineup
FORWARDS
James Van Riemsdyk ($4.250m) / Ryan Getzlaf ($5.325m) / Phil Kessel ($5.400m)
Nazem Kadri ($1.720m) / Mikhail Grabovski ($5.500m) / Nikolai Kulemin ($2.800m)
Clarke MacArthur ($3.250m) / Tyler Bozak ($1.500m) / Matt Frattin ($0.925m)
Colton Orr ($1.000m) / Jay McClement ($1.500m) / Carter Ashton ($1.040m)
DEFENSEMEN
Jake Gardiner ($1.117m) / Dion Phaneuf ($6.500m)
Carl Gunnarsson ($1.325m) / John-Michael Liles ($3.875m)
Korbinian Holzer ($0.575m) / Morgan Rielly ($1.775m)
GOALTENDERS
Roberto Luongo ($5.333m)
James Reimer ($1.800m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
SALARY CAP: $70,200,000; CAP PAYROLL: $56,510,000; BONUSES: $2,112,500
CAP SPACE (20-man roster): $13,690,000
Oh ya... just magically get rid of Mike Komisarek, don't sign your 2nd leading scorer from last year, get Ryan Getzlaf, Tyler Bozak, and Carl Gunnarsson to stupidly cheap contracts, and run a 20 man roster.

And no... Joffrey Lupul is not being traded for Roberto Luongo.

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Old
11-14-2012, 09:43 PM
  #536
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Oh ya... just magically get rid of Mike Komisarek, don't sign your 2nd leading scorer from last year, get Ryan Getzlaf, Tyler Bozak, and Carl Gunnarsson to stupidly cheap contracts, and run a 20 man roster.
As I said, the deal i was proposing involved trading Lupul to us. And I guess you could add in fillers like Steckel or whoever else you need. And buyout Komisarek.

CAPGEEK.COM USER GENERATED ROSTER
My Custom Lineup
FORWARDS
James Van Riemsdyk ($4.250m) / Ryan Getzlaf ($5.325m) / Phil Kessel ($5.400m)
Nazem Kadri ($1.720m) / Mikhail Grabovski ($5.500m) / Nikolai Kulemin ($2.800m)
Clarke MacArthur ($3.250m) / Tyler Bozak ($1.500m) / Matt Frattin ($0.925m)
Colton Orr ($1.000m) / Jay McClement ($1.500m) / Carter Ashton ($1.040m)
David Steckel ($1.100m) / Tyler Biggs ($1.138m)
DEFENSEMEN
Jake Gardiner ($1.117m) / Dion Phaneuf ($6.500m)
Carl Gunnarsson ($1.325m) / John-Michael Liles ($3.875m)
Korbinian Holzer ($0.575m) / Morgan Rielly ($1.775m)
Stuart Percy ($1.107m) /
GOALTENDERS
Roberto Luongo ($5.333m)
James Reimer ($1.800m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
SALARY CAP: $66,200,000; CAP PAYROLL: $59,854,167; BONUSES: $2,537,500
CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $6,345,833

EDIT: This is my first time using Capgeek to generate rosters, so don't hate.

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Old
11-14-2012, 09:45 PM
  #537
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
As I said, the deal i was proposing involved trading Lupul to us. And I guess you could add in fillers like Steckel or whoever else you need. And buyout Komisarek.
As I said, Lupul just isn't happening. A player who is overvalued by his current team does not get traded. If you want him, you'll have to hope that he falls out of favour either very quickly, or slightly slower and decides he wants to go Vancouver in the offseason.

Buying out Komisarek does Toronto little to no good. There's a cost of doing so, and Toronto needs a stay-at-home dman with Schenn gone.

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Old
11-14-2012, 09:53 PM
  #538
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
As I said, Lupul just isn't happening. A player who is overvalued by his current team does not get traded. If you want him, you'll have to hope that he falls out of favour either very quickly, or slightly slower and decides he wants to go Vancouver in the offseason.

Buying out Komisarek does Toronto little to no good. There's a cost of doing so, and Toronto needs a stay-at-home dman with Schenn gone.
Regardless, cap space is not a problem. If Burke has the opportunity to acquire Getzlaf and Luongo, and doesn't do it because he want's a stay at home dman...

Anyways, one more time to make you happy.

CAPGEEK.COM USER GENERATED ROSTER
My Custom Lineup
FORWARDS
James Van Riemsdyk ($4.250m) / Ryan Getzlaf ($5.325m) / Phil Kessel ($5.400m)
Nazem Kadri ($1.720m) / Mikhail Grabovski ($5.500m) / Nikolai Kulemin ($2.800m)
Clarke MacArthur ($3.250m) / Tyler Bozak ($1.500m) / Matt Frattin ($0.925m)
Colton Orr ($1.000m) / Jay McClement ($1.500m) / Carter Ashton ($1.040m)
David Steckel ($1.100m) / Tyler Biggs ($1.138m)
DEFENSEMEN
Jake Gardiner ($1.117m) / Dion Phaneuf ($6.500m)
Carl Gunnarsson ($1.325m) / John-Michael Liles ($3.875m)
Morgan Rielly ($1.775m) / Mike Komisarek ($4.500m)
Korbinian Holzer ($0.575m) /
GOALTENDERS
Roberto Luongo ($5.333m)
James Reimer ($1.800m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
SALARY CAP: $66,200,000; CAP PAYROLL: $63,247,500; BONUSES: $2,325,000
CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $2,952,500

And possibly sub in Weiss who'd be cheaper than Getzlaf.

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Old
11-14-2012, 09:57 PM
  #539
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Regardless, cap space is not a problem. If Burke has the opportunity to acquire Getzlaf and Luongo, and doesn't do it because he want's a stay at home dman...

Anyways, one more time to make you happy.

CAPGEEK.COM USER GENERATED ROSTER
My Custom Lineup
FORWARDS
James Van Riemsdyk ($4.250m) / Ryan Getzlaf ($5.325m) / Phil Kessel ($5.400m)
Nazem Kadri ($1.720m) / Mikhail Grabovski ($5.500m) / Nikolai Kulemin ($2.800m)
Clarke MacArthur ($3.250m) / Tyler Bozak ($1.500m) / Matt Frattin ($0.925m)
Colton Orr ($1.000m) / Jay McClement ($1.500m) / Carter Ashton ($1.040m)
David Steckel ($1.100m) / Tyler Biggs ($1.138m)
DEFENSEMEN
Jake Gardiner ($1.117m) / Dion Phaneuf ($6.500m)
Carl Gunnarsson ($1.325m) / John-Michael Liles ($3.875m)
Morgan Rielly ($1.775m) / Mike Komisarek ($4.500m)
Korbinian Holzer ($0.575m) /
GOALTENDERS
Roberto Luongo ($5.333m)
James Reimer ($1.800m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
SALARY CAP: $66,200,000; CAP PAYROLL: $63,247,500; BONUSES: $2,325,000
CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $2,952,500
You've still grossly underpaid Getzlaf, Gunnarsson, Bozak, and failed to leave room for a player (Lupul) who at this point must be budgeted for.

You post as if getting Roberto Luongo means we get Ryan Getzlaf... and couldn't be further off. It's basically either or.... and I shouldn't need to tell you who the Leafs really want.

A guy like Stephen Weiss is the last type of player we need to sign to a big contract.

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Old
11-14-2012, 10:04 PM
  #540
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I think Lupul will like Vancouver, and vice versa.

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11-14-2012, 10:06 PM
  #541
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
You've still grossly underpaid Getzlaf, Gunnarsson, Bozak, and failed to leave room for a player (Lupul) who at this point must be budgeted for.

You post as if getting Roberto Luongo means we get Ryan Getzlaf... and couldn't be further off. It's basically either or.... and I shouldn't need to tell you who the Leafs really want.

A guy like Stephen Weiss is the last type of player we need to sign to a big contract.
Okay, add a million each to Getzlaf, Gunnarsson, and Bozak. Take a million off Macarthur. Still fits.

Regardless, the cap can almost always be figured out after the fact. Getzlaf/Luongo is not either/or due to cap space. That's ridiculous.

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11-14-2012, 10:07 PM
  #542
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Okay, add a million each to Getzlaf, Gunnarsson, and Bozak. Take a million off Macarthur. Still fits.
Problem is Burke doesn't manage his contracts as well as Gillis does. Canuck fans are use to below market value.

Burke will probably over-pay every single one.

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11-14-2012, 10:16 PM
  #543
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It also looks a lot better with a $1.3m 25 year old young starting goalie in net. If you're Ryan Getzlaf, do you want to join a team with Martin Brodeur or Jonathan Quick in net? Of course, no guarantees as to Reimer's success at this point...
No guarantees of Reimer's success, yet you have no issues comparing him to Quick?

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11-14-2012, 11:00 PM
  #544
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This just in...LUPUL, isn't going anywhere.

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Old
11-14-2012, 11:14 PM
  #545
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Hahahaahahahahahh....

Not a chance. Kadri? Sure. Colborne? Sure. Protected 1st? Sure. Combined? Forget it.

From Toronto's perspective, the first is probably most valuable (plenty of older prospects, need to keep the system flowing), followed by Colborne then Kadri. With Kadri, the Canucks could probably get MacArthur in the deal as well... with the first, that's basically it, plus a guy with little value to Toronto like Lombardi. If we're talking about Colborne, then the Canucks could likely get whatever trade value a guy like Franson has.
So outside of Kessel, Gardiner Phaneuf, and Reilly how many players from the current roster will be contributing members even in 3 years time?

Maybe Lupul signs an extension, maybe Kadri develops properly. Maybe JVR becomes a legit top line guy.

Luongo has more impact on the Leafs roster for the next 5 years that isnt Kessel, Reilly or Gardiner.

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11-14-2012, 11:23 PM
  #546
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So outside of Kessel, Gardiner Phaneuf, and Reilly how many players from the current roster will be contributing members even in 3 years time?

Maybe Lupul signs an extension, maybe Kadri develops properly. Maybe JVR becomes a legit top line guy.

Luongo has more impact on the Leafs roster for the next 5 years that isnt Kessel, Reilly or Gardiner.
And that's assuming Kessel and Phaneuf don't walk next year.

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11-14-2012, 11:41 PM
  #547
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And that's assuming Kessel and Phaneuf don't walk next year.
How about this, you worry about your own teams upcoming UFA's, don't worry about ours. We got that covered. Thanks

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11-14-2012, 11:54 PM
  #548
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How about this, you worry about your own teams upcoming UFA's, don't worry about ours. We got that covered. Thanks
Well when discussing a player's long-term impact to a team, making the team more desirable to UFAs or to players who's contracts are running out constitutes a major part of that.

If you want to ignore most of the benefits Luongo brings to the Leafs(filling the biggest hole on the roster, signed at a decent cap hit, helps reverse the losing trend set since the last lockout, helps attract free agents and prevent players from walking, etc.) then it's reasonable to assume the Leafs won't give up more than a couple of B assets and a cap dump. But I doubt Burke and Gillis feel the same way.

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11-15-2012, 12:07 AM
  #549
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Well when discussing a player's long-term impact to a team, making the team more desirable to UFAs or to players who's contracts are running out constitutes a major part of that.

If you want to ignore most of the benefits Luongo brings to the Leafs(filling the biggest hole on the roster, signed at a decent cap hit, helps reverse the losing trend set since the last lockout, helps attract free agents and prevent players from walking, etc.) then it's reasonable to assume the Leafs won't give up more than a couple of B assets and a cap dump. But I doubt Burke and Gillis feel the same way.
You really should get off your high horse. You have no idea what Burke intends to do, nor do you know what every upocoming Leaf UFA is going to do either. Your assuming way too much.

Here, let me try.

You guys keep Luongo, he becomes a cancer in the dressing room. The Canucks due to their locker room issues fail to miss the playoffs, and all their players demand they want a trade the heck out of there as management didn't do anything to prevent ot help. That sound about right. That's what I believe would happen. So you guys better trade Luongo to us. You better. It's for your teams good.

Of course I don't truly believe that, I'm just trying to show you how silly you sound with all your "predicting". Please, don't do us any favors, we're good.

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11-15-2012, 12:11 AM
  #550
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Luongo just doesn't have that much value. Great player but right now you'd get him for cheap if he HAD to be traded. Only in a mini bidding war would he get decent value but right now, with like toronto as the only realistic destination the return won't be high.

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