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Old
11-15-2012, 12:35 AM
  #551
Numbers
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Luongo just doesn't have that much value. Great player but right now you'd get him for cheap if he HAD to be traded. Only in a mini bidding war would he get decent value but right now, with like toronto as the only realistic destination the return won't be high.
I don't understand posts like these. Pretty much zero rational insight and pure specalitive opinion with no facts to back up what your saying. How is Toronto the only destination when their have been reports from mainstream media that up to 5 teams are interested?

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11-15-2012, 01:02 AM
  #552
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Originally Posted by DougGilmour93 View Post
How about this, you worry about your own teams upcoming UFA's, don't worry about ours. We got that covered. Thanks
I made the point that Luongo would be more influencial over the next 5 years than anyone not named Kessel, Gardiner and Reilly.

He pointed out that Kessel could walk.

Its a valid point.

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11-15-2012, 01:06 AM
  #553
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I'm shocked how confident some leaf fans are in Reimer.

That said I don't see a deal to be made between these fan bases.

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11-15-2012, 01:07 AM
  #554
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
I'm shocked how confident some leaf fans are in Reimer.

That said I don't see a deal to be made between these fan bases.
You mean their fans ? :p

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11-15-2012, 01:12 AM
  #555
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I posed this question a few threads back, but...

If the leafs had Luongo and Schneider, and the Canucks biggest weakness was goaltending,
- What package would you give up as a Canucks fan for Luongo?


Obviously a hypothetical, but just an interesting way to look at his perceived value.

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11-15-2012, 01:14 AM
  #556
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Originally Posted by kack zassian View Post
I posed this question a few threads back, but...

If the leafs had Luongo and Schneider, and the Canucks biggest weakness was goaltending,
- What package would you give up as a Canucks fan for Luongo?


Obviously a hypothetical, but just an interesting way to look at his perceived value.
They'd ask for Schneider instead

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11-15-2012, 01:17 AM
  #557
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Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
I don't understand posts like these. Pretty much zero rational insight and pure specalitive opinion with no facts to back up what your saying. How is Toronto the only destination when their have been reports from mainstream media that up to 5 teams are interested?
At what price? Speaking of Toronto they have gone on record saying they will not pay a big price for goaltending, yet people assume they are in the picture at this premium rate.

I don't see florida as a true realistic destination. ya ya, his wife is from there or whatever. So what, doesn't mean florida has to pay for it.

This just in, 30 teams interested in getzlaf, crosby, ovechkin. This just in, no one willing to pay the price set by their teams. Do we still say 30 is realistic?

Out of curiousity, can I have a link to the source for these 5 teams?

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11-15-2012, 01:18 AM
  #558
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kack zassian View Post
I posed this question a few threads back, but...

If the leafs had Luongo and Schneider, and the Canucks biggest weakness was goaltending,
- What package would you give up as a Canucks fan for Luongo?


Obviously a hypothetical, but just an interesting way to look at his perceived value.
Raymond, Ballard, and a 20th

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11-15-2012, 01:20 AM
  #559
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Sedins, Kesler and Kassian are all off the table for obvious reasons.

I would consider doing

Toronto
Alex Edler

Vancouver
Roberto Luongo

Toronto
Alex Burrows
1st Round Pick

Vancouver
Roberto Luongo

Or something more future oriented like

Toronto
Niklas Jensen
1st Round Pick
Chris Tanev

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11-15-2012, 01:21 AM
  #560
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Originally Posted by PoolChamp View Post
Raymond, Ballard, and a 20th
So Bozak Komisarek an early 2nd?

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11-15-2012, 01:23 AM
  #561
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Originally Posted by kack zassian View Post
Sedins, Kesler and Kassian are all off the table for obvious reasons.

I would consider doing

Toronto
Alex Edler

Vancouver
Roberto Luongo

Toronto
Alex Burrows
1st Round Pick

Vancouver
Roberto Luongo

Or something more future oriented like

Toronto
Niklas Jensen
1st Round Pick
Chris Tanev
You'd pay Edler for Luongo? Are you sure you're not driving up the price here?

That's a big price unless you feel Edler will be a UFA. If you can re-sign him, I take him over Luongo.

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11-15-2012, 01:25 AM
  #562
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
So Bozak Komisarek an early 2nd?
yeah something like that, because Luongo is an old man with an albatross contract who lost his job to a newb that is probably just a fluke like Raycroft, or Mason, so he's clearly on the decline.

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11-15-2012, 01:25 AM
  #563
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
You'd pay Edler for Luongo? Are you sure you're not driving up the price here?

That's a big price unless you feel Edler will be a UFA. If you can re-sign him, I take him over Luongo.
I would pay Edler for Luongo, unless we could get Edler on a hometown deal.

My thoughts are Edler at 6+ mil < Luongo, but Edler at 6- mil > Luongo.

Really depends on salary demands.

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11-15-2012, 01:32 AM
  #564
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Originally Posted by kack zassian View Post
I would pay Edler for Luongo, unless we could get Edler on a hometown deal.

My thoughts are Edler at 6+ mil < Luongo, but Edler at 6- mil > Luongo.

Really depends on salary demands.
My less than supportive posts aside, I find that surprising. I think Edler has a longer shelf life.

Of course it depends a team's situation. If we're talking vancouver, they might feel better with a proven guy when they are a contender(with rest of line-up).

For Toronto, I don't know. Young team, they got a decent project in Reimer. It's tough. Obviously, Luongo can help them too but it really depends the price.

I'm not a Toronto fan btw, I just rather get in on the convo on a team I know better than say Florida.

There's no bad reason to get Luongo but they'll weigh the pros and cons and I don't see Toronto feeling comfortable giving up a premium asset like an edler to get Luongo. I'd be shocked if they ever paid that sort of premium.

Edler's contract is a guess at this point. The CBA's rules on length, rollbacks and all that will dictate it.

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11-15-2012, 01:50 AM
  #565
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Originally Posted by DougGilmour93 View Post
fail to miss the playoffs.
I think since its been so long since the leafs made the playoffs that you might've forgotten that the goal is to make the playoffs.


Regardless you sound so ignorant with your comments in that last post, do you really not think that having an elite goaltender backstopping an apparently "up and coming team" would not be more useful in trying to lure free agents (Which TO has failed to do since the cap system was introduced) than a struggling young, unproven goalie?

Seriously?

Scenario 1: TO makes the playoffs as a 6-8 seed with Luongo, the franchise looks like there is a bright future ahead and free agents say "Hey maybe it isn't as bad as it was before, maybe I'll hear Burkes pitch and take it seriously this time"

Scenario 2: Toronto missed the playoffs again due to not having a major league goalie, several players that are becoming UFAs leave despite competitive offers from TO for as much money or even maybe more than other teams are offering. Lupul, Bozak and Gunnerson leave for greener pastures. Do you really think any A-B+ UFA would consider signing with a team like that? If Getzlaf wanted to play for a loser he'd stick out the rebuilding process with Anaheim.

Players want to play for winners, they don't care about lottery picks or bluechip prospects. This is reality, welcome back.


Last edited by Seatoo: 11-15-2012 at 02:03 AM.
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Old
11-15-2012, 02:59 AM
  #566
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Luongo just doesn't have that much value. Great player but right now you'd get him for cheap if he HAD to be traded. Only in a mini bidding war would he get decent value but right now, with like toronto as the only realistic destination the return won't be high.
Since when did Luongo have to be traded? Since when was Toronto the only realistic destination?

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11-15-2012, 03:11 AM
  #567
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Originally Posted by PG Canuck View Post
Since when did Luongo have to be traded? Since when was Toronto the only realistic destination?
You should re-read that, you'll see an "IF".

I see Luongo in vancouver personally.

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11-15-2012, 03:14 AM
  #568
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Originally Posted by Seatoo View Post
I think since its been so long since the leafs made the playoffs that you might've forgotten that the goal is to make the playoffs.


Regardless you sound so ignorant with your comments in that last post, do you really not think that having an elite goaltender backstopping an apparently "up and coming team" would not be more useful in trying to lure free agents (Which TO has failed to do since the cap system was introduced) than a struggling young, unproven goalie?

Seriously?

Scenario 1: TO makes the playoffs as a 6-8 seed with Luongo, the franchise looks like there is a bright future ahead and free agents say "Hey maybe it isn't as bad as it was before, maybe I'll hear Burkes pitch and take it seriously this time"

Scenario 2: Toronto missed the playoffs again due to not having a major league goalie, several players that are becoming UFAs leave despite competitive offers from TO for as much money or even maybe more than other teams are offering. Lupul, Bozak and Gunnerson leave for greener pastures. Do you really think any A-B+ UFA would consider signing with a team like that? If Getzlaf wanted to play for a loser he'd stick out the rebuilding process with Anaheim.

Players want to play for winners, they don't care about lottery picks or bluechip prospects. This is reality, welcome back.
It depends, if Luongo make toronto a certain playoff team then you have a point. However, if leafs management feels what they give up for him+not playing reimer is worse than just playing luongo then they won't do it. The loss and backtracking of Reimer's progression needs to be much smaller than what luongo would bring. If leafs believe that, then sure...but as price becomes more centered around leafs core players the equation is less and less of a sure thing in regards to making the playoffs.

Essentially, scenario 3. They got luongo and don't make it anyway.

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Old
11-15-2012, 05:02 AM
  #569
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
That's absolutely fine. Luongo has a value to us, and if somebody else is willing to give more, then they should absolutely trade him there.


If all offers are low, then Luongo will be traded to FLA before TO is of any concern. Soft deal = FLA, and no one else.



Quote:
BTW, what do you think the Panthers are actually prepared to offer? At the end of the day, that's what determines a player's market value, and so far (at least in this thread), there only seems to be 1 team interested.


You mean what do FLA _fans_ offer? Or what are TO _fans_ willing to offer? The fact is that Burke doesn't know what Tallon's offer is, or will be. In the real world. So how does he adjust to the market? What is the market? Does every GM know what the other is offering?



To date, here is an amalgam of what is known via rumours from reporters:


TO: Burke rumoured to offer Komisarek, Kulemin and a 1st in one deal (rejected) and Schenn in another before he was dealt. Gillis countered with Gardiner + 1st + Frattin + Bozak.


FLA: Gillis wanted Bjugstad, Tallon rejected the deal.


CHI: Bowman offered Bolland, Gillis rejected.


CLB: Talked to Gillis at the draft, but offer unknown.


EDM: Their last offer _bettered_ TO's best offer, from reports, but the details are unknown.


SJS: Was rumoured to be kicking the tires, but remain a peripheral team.


So does this define the "market" for you? Or do the fans?


Quote:
Originally Posted by CanuckLuck View Post
I think by the 6,500 or so posts on this particular topic we can determine the value coming back for Luo will be somewhere between what seanlinden and y2kcanucks are offering.......

really narrows it down...


Lol, too true. The two extremes eh?

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11-15-2012, 06:29 AM
  #570
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Okay, add a million each to Getzlaf, Gunnarsson, and Bozak. Take a million off Macarthur. Still fits.

Regardless, the cap can almost always be figured out after the fact. Getzlaf/Luongo is not either/or due to cap space. That's ridiculous.
#1. A million isn't enough.
#2. Still no space for Lupul.
#3. Still not enough cap space.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LuckyLager View Post
No guarantees of Reimer's success, yet you have no issues comparing him to Quick?
I'm comparing him to Quick like I'm comparing Luongo to Brodeur.... neither are fair comparisons. The point is, a team with a young star goalie (something Reimer certainly has the potential to be) is a lot more attractive than an aging star goalie. The risk associated with Reimer is what makes the Leafs willing to even talk about trading for Luongo, but when you're looking at committing to a huge contract as well, the price we're willing to pay in terms of assets stops short of young core players.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kack zassian View Post
So outside of Kessel, Gardiner Phaneuf, and Reilly how many players from the current roster will be contributing members even in 3 years time?

Maybe Lupul signs an extension, maybe Kadri develops properly. Maybe JVR becomes a legit top line guy.

Luongo has more impact on the Leafs roster for the next 5 years that isnt Kessel, Reilly or Gardiner.
Nobody can say that with any sort of accuracy.. but you keep your young guys until you don't need them anymore. Right now, we need guys like Kulemin, JvR, Bozak, etc.

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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
If all offers are low, then Luongo will be traded to FLA before TO is of any concern. Soft deal = FLA, and no one else.







You mean what do FLA _fans_ offer? Or what are TO _fans_ willing to offer? The fact is that Burke doesn't know what Tallon's offer is, or will be. In the real world. So how does he adjust to the market? What is the market? Does every GM know what the other is offering??
Luongo will be traded to the team that gives the best offer to the Canucks. There's no difference between Florida and Toronto beyond the packages offered.

This is all fans in here.... and there seems to be only fans of one team interested.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kack zassian View Post
I posed this question a few threads back, but...

If the leafs had Luongo and Schneider, and the Canucks biggest weakness was goaltending,
- What package would you give up as a Canucks fan for Luongo?


Obviously a hypothetical, but just an interesting way to look at his perceived value.
The problem with doing that is (beyond the fact that Canucks fans are going to overrate Luongo and underrate Reimer) is that Vancouver is a team with an immediate outlook. They don't have to care nearly as much about the long term impacts of committing their #1 job to a 33 year old goaltender for the rest of his career.

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11-15-2012, 06:36 AM
  #571
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Originally Posted by Seatoo View Post
I think since its been so long since the leafs made the playoffs that you might've forgotten that the goal is to make the playoffs.
No the goal is to win the Stanley Cup. Or do Canucks fans now view a cupless season as a success now days?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
If all offers are low, then Luongo will be traded to FLA before TO is of any concern. Soft deal = FLA, and no one else.
This is quite funny. We wont do any team any favours except Florida. Why is that exactly? Do Dale Tallon and Mike Gillis share some sort of relationship that the rest us do not know of?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
You mean what do FLA _fans_ offer? Or what are TO _fans_ willing to offer? The fact is that Burke doesn't know what Tallon's offer is, or will be. In the real world. So how does he adjust to the market? What is the market? Does every GM know what the other is offering?



To date, here is an amalgam of what is known via rumours from reporters:


TO: Burke rumoured to offer Komisarek, Kulemin and a 1st in one deal (rejected) and Schenn in another before he was dealt. Gillis countered with Gardiner + 1st + Frattin + Bozak.


FLA: Gillis wanted Bjugstad, Tallon rejected the deal.


CHI: Bowman offered Bolland, Gillis rejected.


CLB: Talked to Gillis at the draft, but offer unknown.


EDM: Their last offer _bettered_ TO's best offer, from reports, but the details are unknown.


SJS: Was rumoured to be kicking the tires, but remain a peripheral team.


So does this define the "market" for you? Or do the fans?
Bolland was never offered from Chicago's side as it makes no sense whatsoever considering the woeful depth at center for the Hawks. We have options at goaltending, we have none at center. Which leads me to believe that most of the above trades that were "rumored" were quite likely never offered. So no this does nothing to "define the market" as it is consists of pure speculation.

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11-15-2012, 06:59 AM
  #572
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Luongo will be traded to the team that gives the best offer to the Canucks. There's no difference between Florida and Toronto beyond the packages offered.


Incorrect. If the difference between the packages is marginal, I can absolutely envision Gillis making the lesser deal to serve Luongo. There's FLA, and then there's everyone else.



Quote:
This is all fans in here.... and there seems to be only fans of one team interested.


There seems to be a lot more that just _fans_ weighing in on a potential Lu trade. Insiders/Reporters have been weighing in on this, are we going to ignore this information for fan bias? Surely not.

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11-15-2012, 07:04 AM
  #573
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Originally Posted by Intense Rage View Post
This is quite funny. We wont do any team any favours except Florida. Why is that exactly? Do Dale Tallon and Mike Gillis share some sort of relationship that the rest us do not know of?


I'm glad it's amusing. I'm saying that _if_ any team gets the favour of a soft deal, it will be FLA, to serve Luongo's desire to go there. Gillis is a player friendly GM, and if he doesn't see a significant difference in the offers _and_ he decides to move Lu quickly, then FLA makes more sense than any other destination.



Quote:
Bolland was never offered from Chicago's side as it makes no sense whatsoever considering the woeful depth at center for the Hawks. We have options at goaltending, we have none at center. Which leads me to believe that most of the above trades that were "rumored" were quite likely never offered. So no this does nothing to "define the market" as it is consists of pure speculation.


You can call it speculation, but there are degrees. No one has to believe the rumours, but I put stock into rumours before I ever let fan bias colour my judgement. So you can either keep believing the opinion you have formed, which is your right, or you can look to the more unbiased reports floating out there from _far_ more legit sources than yourself.



Don't shoot the messenger.

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11-15-2012, 07:21 AM
  #574
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
#1. A million isn't enough.
#2. Still no space for Lupul.
#3. Still not enough cap space.
I highly doubt that if the cap goes down that Getzlaf signs for over 7 mil. Not to mention that your logic is "Luongo has no value to us because he takes up to much cap space so we won't give up anything of significance to the team", but if you give up a package like Lupul or Bozak + Kulemin, then Luongo's cap hit is almost completely offset.

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11-15-2012, 08:01 AM
  #575
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Lupul.

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