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Israel-Gaza conflict huge escalation

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Old
11-14-2012, 11:30 PM
  #51
Abduljabbar
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Originally Posted by ChiGuySez View Post
Palestinian expulsion. Lets see. A portion left on their own accord due to the war (the war when the Arab league including Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Syria, SA and all other Arab nations declared war on Israel hours after declaring statehood). A portion were kicked out, this I do not disagree. How many, were kicked out? Im sure someone here can supply those figures. Maybe not. So what percentage was it. And due to the declaration of war and assault on Israel, would or could this really be classified as ethnic cleansing. If were talking semantics, cant justified imprisonment of certain ethnic populations, just because they do not want to abide by laws be classified as ethnic cleansing. Im just talking semantics and being facetious of course because that what 'new historians' do.

The Palestinians will probably never make any agreement with Israel and Israel will never give up Jerusalem. Fact is neither side will probably agree to terms as much as the kumbayahs here think they should or might.

Borders have changed throughout history and will continue to change. Thats a fact. Just depends who can hold said territories either by peaceful negotiations, militarily or otherwise.

How about building a new country that caters to neither Jews, Muslims or Christians? Just to, you know, and this is a radical idea, human beings. I'm not saying this will fly because people want something to fight about.

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11-14-2012, 11:32 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by slip View Post
Israel's greatest hope for normalcy is to come to the recognition that co-existence with the Palestinians is the real path to peace and security. A unified Israel/Palesitne living "together and equally" -- as this requirement is non-negotiable in a real democracy -- becomes a beacon for regional stability and growth, and thus presents itself as a meaningful alternative to Saudi Arabia and other Persian Gulf states (Qatar, UAE, Kuwait), the true "racist scum" in the Middle East (see how they treat SE Asian and Indian laborers), who live shielded by the American military (on the taxpayer's dime, no less).

It's a crazy system that needs end if Israel is to not just survive, but prosper beyond its wildest dreams. But that is possible when everyone is equal before the law, regardless of religious affiliation. If not for American meddling, there is not doubt in my mind Israel would well down this path already.
The argument could be said for Israel's treatment of blacks and Arabs. Also calling an entire people "racist scum" kind of makes you what you claim them to be.

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11-14-2012, 11:38 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Dugray View Post
There won't be peace in that **** hole of a region until one side or the other is annihilated. Get to work Israel, you've got a lot of killing to do if you want peace.
And this makes me ever more glad I left Longueuil XD

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11-15-2012, 12:37 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Abduljabbar View Post
The argument could be said for Israel's treatment of blacks and Arabs. Also calling an entire people "racist scum" kind of makes you what you claim them to be.
Id like to comment beyond saying its actually not comparable, on this topic but the middle east country i live in has just strengthened its anti-defamation laws.

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11-15-2012, 01:23 AM
  #55
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The battle takes a turn. IDF vs Hamas on the twittersphere!

http://twitchy.com/2012/11/14/twitte...rael-vs-hamas/

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11-15-2012, 02:30 AM
  #56
Daynz
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Originally Posted by PSUCapsFan View Post
The battle takes a turn. IDF vs Hamas on the twittersphere!

http://twitchy.com/2012/11/14/twitte...rael-vs-hamas/
The Hamas tweets remind me of the wall of a friend of mine on facebook. He plays some game called Mafia Wars. Filled with stuff like "You killed blah blah bringing your total to blah blah", with some smack talk in between. That was just bizarre to read.

Edit: Heh, should have kept reading. Andy Levy had the same thought.


Last edited by Daynz: 11-15-2012 at 02:36 AM.
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11-15-2012, 04:05 AM
  #57
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Could anyone explain to be why people are pro-Palestine? I don't have a side to this, but to me, it seems as though Israel is just retaliating against Palestinian attacks, yet there are so many people, and that number increases, who support palestine and hate Israel and if anyone has any links I could check out, that would be awesome.
Well.. the problem is that these people are there. They are numerous, and live in ****** situation under the heel of Israel.

They cannot move out; the other arab nations don't want them. They cannot build an economy; Israeli is blockading them. Israeli settlers keep moving in their territory (usually the most fertile lands) and keep forcing them to relocate through soft measures and harassment, if not outright violence.

Now, the Palestinians aren't going anywhere. And the only solution Israel seems to have for the problem is further bombing them, do you think it will help solve the problem? If you have some Palestinian leaders who tries to strike a deal with the Israeli government, how do you think they look in the eye of their people when Israel suddenly decides to break the agreement because of a splinter group did something bad?

In the current state of political affairs in Palestine, trying to make peace with Israel is looked upon as hopelessly naive, even dangerous. Israel has done nothing to earn the trust of the Palestinian people on any level.

Now, do you seriously think the recent assassination of Hamas leaders will actually lead us closer to a peace settlement? Off course not. It is simply one more act of violence, one that leads us no closer to any end-of-crisis solution.


Israel is the one with the power to end this, but it needs to make political consessions. It is sadly impossible due to the way their electoral system works, which is completely dysfunctional (proportional representation is truly a nightmare).

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11-15-2012, 09:22 AM
  #58
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Maybe the U.N. should invade Israel?

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11-15-2012, 10:13 AM
  #59
Burke the Legend
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Fact is, Hamas basically has sovereign control over Gaza territory. There ar eno settlers in Gaza, no Israeli checkpoints, and the border with Egypt is basically wide open. The peoples' destiny there is basically in their own hands, they could try and make it a prosperous commercially oriented city state, but instead they choose to pursue armed conflict with Israel instead, launching border attacks and indiscriminate rockets at Israel towns. Nobody is forcing them to do this, they are choosing war.

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11-15-2012, 10:47 AM
  #60
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Reports now of explosion in Tel Aviv.

Also, 3 Israelis were killed last night.

Not sure of Gaza casualty total, was 15+ last night. Airstrikes continuing.

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11-15-2012, 11:33 AM
  #61
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You can't blame this whole thing on anyone. They're both just as bad as each other.

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Old
11-15-2012, 11:42 AM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slip View Post
Israel's greatest hope for normalcy is to come to the recognition that co-existence with the Palestinians is the real path to peace and security. A unified Israel/Palesitne living "together and equally" -- as this requirement is non-negotiable in a real democracy -- becomes a beacon for regional stability and growth, and thus presents itself as a meaningful alternative to Saudi Arabia and other Persian Gulf states (Qatar, UAE, Kuwait), the true "racist scum" in the Middle East (see how they treat SE Asian and Indian laborers), who live shielded by the American military (on the taxpayer's dime, no less).

It's a crazy system that needs end if Israel is to not just survive, but prosper beyond its wildest dreams. But that is possible when everyone is equal before the law, regardless of religious affiliation. If not for American meddling, there is not doubt in my mind Israel would well down this path already.

I like your optimism, but in reality that is never going to happen. Israel and Palestine have to much animosity towards one another which has been their since Israel was declared a state in 1948.

The major problem is that Palestinians think Israelis are the scum of the earth because they took their land, but from what I have learnt through studying this topic, the land where Israel is situated today was never actually Palestinian land and it was just an entity of Britain and then became Israel in 1948.

Honestly this conflict will probably never end. However the only way i see this ending if all the middle eastern countries that have a predominant Arabic population create one large utopia where they can all live in peace and harmony, but that idea is so far fetched and unrealistic though.

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Old
11-15-2012, 12:25 PM
  #63
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MSM finally giving coverage now.

Hamas leader speaking, says "Great day for martyrdom"

Lebanon news reports Barak has agreed to summon 30,000 reserve soldiers http://twitter.com/LBCI_News_EN

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Old
11-15-2012, 12:28 PM
  #64
ChiGuySez
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Originally Posted by hersky77 View Post
The major problem is that Palestinians think Israelis are the scum of the earth because they took their land, but from what I have learnt through studying this topic, the land where Israel is situated today was never actually Palestinian land and it was just an entity of Britain and then became Israel in 1948.
Thats within the vacuum of the 20th century but the history of the lands goes back to biblical times. Generic overview timeline.

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11-15-2012, 12:56 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by ChiGuySez View Post
Thats within the vacuum of the 20th century but the history of the lands goes back to biblical times. Generic overview timeline.
So where does the Kingdom of Israel fall in that timeline?

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11-15-2012, 01:01 PM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Burke the Legend View Post
Fact is, Hamas basically has sovereign control over Gaza territory. There ar eno settlers in Gaza,
NOW there are none.

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Originally Posted by Burke the Legend View Post
no Israeli checkpoints
Just a 8-feet tall barrier that you get shot for getting less than 1 km.

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Originally Posted by Burke the Legend View Post
and the border with Egypt is basically wide open.
1- The Erez crossing, which is regularily closed by the Israeli, work permit either not respected or even confiscated by Israeli soldiers.
2- Karmi Crossing, also closed.
3- Rafah crossing, the only one who actually leads into Egypt (oh, there IS a wall between Egypt and Gaza. It was imposed by Israel in the Camp David peace accord).

Israel still has total authority over the Rafah crossing and has, on more than one occasion, ordered it's complete closure. These people are living with a knife under their throat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Burke the Legend View Post
The peoples' destiny there is basically in their own hands, they could try and make it a prosperous commercially oriented city state,
How? By trading through the Israeli-controlled and restricted crossing, sending goods and services through the Sinai desert? How do they would get their raw material, when Israeli blockades everything that goes into the strip? How can they set up an industry when Israel prevents them from having any sort of infrastructure beyond the ruins they have created?

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Originally Posted by Burke the Legend View Post
but instead they choose to pursue armed conflict with Israel instead, launching border attacks and indiscriminate rockets at Israel towns. Nobody is forcing them to do this, they are choosing war.
I hardly can see how they can launch rocket at anything else than Israeli towns. These people don't have live satellite reckon of the Israeli troop movements or high-tech guided rockets. It's point and shoot. Tell me exactly what are their option to fight?

Israel is chosing war by keeping settling into Cisjordania. Does Israel have a gun to its head to keep sending people into the West Bank, militarizing it and preventing people from moving about in their own damn country?

Palestine is an occupied country, and you act like the Palestinians should just roll over and accept to take everything the Israeli do to them. They are apparently in the wrong for refusing to take it.

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11-15-2012, 01:06 PM
  #67
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So where does the Kingdom of Israel fall in that timeline?
Before the Kingdom of Aztecs, Maya and Inca were remotely powerful. Before the civilizations of the Iroquois, Shawnee, Creeks, Comanche, Cheyenne, Shoshone, Apache and Dakota became what they were before your nation genocided them.

Since you hardly volunteer to remove your 400-year old nation to give way to the first inhabitants, I cannot understand why the Jews who deserted their homeland more than 1,500 years ago should give way to the inhabitants who settled there before.

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11-15-2012, 01:10 PM
  #68
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Before the Kingdom of Aztecs, Maya and Inca were remotely powerful. Before the civilizations of the Iroquois, Shawnee, Creeks, Comanche, Cheyenne, Shoshone, Apache and Dakota became what they were before your nation genocided them.
Plueeese. Canada was inhabited by what native tribes? And what did the natives do the cavemen?

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11-15-2012, 01:14 PM
  #69
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Plueeese. Canada was inhabited by what native tribes? And what did the natives do the cavemen?
Well, as far as I know, the French mostly mingled pretty well with the Natives, and were forming quite a nite nation of Metis in Manitoba until Ottawa sent the army and crushed them to dust.

Stop being defensive about past genocide. Acknowledge the past sins of your nation and just move on. My original point was that the Jew have no damn right to this land since they left the place before anything remotely close to our modern world existed. It was before Islam existed in the first place!

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11-15-2012, 01:26 PM
  #70
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Every country on earth formed by someone displacing somebody else. it is the way of things.

Also your little list of oppressive Israel against Gaza leaves out the obvious fact, that Israel has to put these measures in place because the people of Gaza attack them! When Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza in 2005 their reward was an immediate commencement of rocket & suicide attacks originating from this now sovereign territory, and now you blame them for security measures put in place to minimize their damage from this aggression. If Hamas renounced all violence tomorrow, destroyed their weapons, put violent jihadis in prison, recognized Israel and tore up their disgusting jew hate charter, Israel would immediatelly reciprocate in kind.

With biased people like you though, Israel really can never do anything right, while the arabs can do no wrong.

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11-15-2012, 01:35 PM
  #71
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Cisjordania lol. The Palestinians in Gaza seem to be pretty good at importing rockets, maybe they should use that energy on updating their civilization 1000 years.

If the Arabs gave 2 ***** about the plight of the Palestinians they would not force them to live in wretched refugee camps and would grant them citizenship to any number of Islamic nations.

The day Israel gives up Jerusalem is the day China gives up Tibet, America gives up Hawaii, and Russia gives up Siberia...Never.

Gaza should elect new leaders who won't store rockets and munitions in apartment complexes and use their own population as human shields. As far as I'm concerned Hamas is responsible for every casualty in this conflict.

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11-15-2012, 01:41 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Burke the Legend View Post
Every country on earth formed by someone displacing somebody else. it is the way of things.

Also your little list of oppressive Israel against Gaza leaves out the obvious fact, that Israel has to put these measures in place because the people of Gaza attack them! When Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza in 2005 their reward was an immediate commencement of rocket & suicide attacks originating from this now sovereign territory, and now you blame them for security measures put in place to minimize their damage from this aggression. If Hamas renounced all violence tomorrow, destroyed their weapons, put violent jihadis in prison, recognized Israel and tore up their disgusting jew hate charter, Israel would immediatelly reciprocate in kind.

With biased people like you though, Israel really can never do anything right, while the arabs can do no wrong.
Where did I said the arabs can do no wrong?

Or that the Israeli have done no rights?

I am simply speaking against those who depicts a unilateral view of the events. You really do nothing but depict Israel as the poor victim of constant terrorism, and the Palestinian as bloodthirsty violent terrorists who don't care about their wellbeing and just want to kill jews.

The reality is much more complex than the black and white picture you are trying to project.


Now, back to the current issue (rather than the underlying fundamental problem), I have received news today that Hamas (or at least splinter group) have managed to fire 2 rockets directly at Tel Aviv, which apparently was some sort of red line for the Israeli military.

STRATFOR expects a ground force invasion. IDF are mobilizing its reserve forces of 30,000 soldiers.

Man.. there is not way this will end well. With Egypt mobilizing its own army at the border, the Syrian civil war ongoing...

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11-15-2012, 01:43 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by PSUCapsFan View Post
Cisjordania lol. The Palestinians in Gaza seem to be pretty good at importing rockets, maybe they should use that energy on updating their civilization 1000 years.
You don't seem to know much about the tonnage required to build a proper economy compared to the tonnage required to field guerilla warfare.

For the record: you really sounded like an ignorant redneck in that post.

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11-15-2012, 01:51 PM
  #74
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Ben Gurion's own words.

" Why should the Arabs make peace? If I were an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs. We come from Israel, it's true, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been antisemitism, the
Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that? "

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11-15-2012, 01:56 PM
  #75
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With Egypt mobilizing its own army at the border

????

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