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HOH Top 40 Goaltenders of All Time

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Old
11-15-2012, 03:31 AM
  #26
tarheelhockey
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In a nutshell, Brodeur wasn't as dominant over his generation as the goalies above him. Look at the first and second spots, and consider that Sawchuk, Hall and Plante were head-and-shoulders above ALL competition at various points in time.

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11-15-2012, 03:45 AM
  #27
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Or, another way to look at it...

Say you're right and Brodeur is #1. Now the top 3 goalies of all time all played together for about a decade.

Not that such an idea is completely indefensible, but it kind of goes against the "all time" spirit of the project.

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11-15-2012, 03:48 AM
  #28
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Question: Should Charlie Gardiner be listed as Canada or Scotland? He was 7 years old when he came over.

I also never realized that nobody seems to know Clint Benedict's height or weight.

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11-15-2012, 04:37 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Question: Should Charlie Gardiner be listed as Canada or Scotland? He was 7 years old when he came over.

I also never realized that nobody seems to know Clint Benedict's height or weight.
From what I understand, Gardiner didn't learn the sport until he came to Manitoba, so that might carry some weight as being Canadian. As for Benedict, Without Fear lists him as 5-11, 185 lbs.

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11-15-2012, 04:53 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
From what I understand, Gardiner didn't learn the sport until he came to Manitoba, so that might carry some weight as being Canadian. As for Benedict, Without Fear lists him as 5-11, 185 lbs.
I guess we can use what that book says about Benedict. None of hockey-reference, wikipedia, hockeyDB, and SIHR knows his height or weight

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11-15-2012, 03:05 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
In a nutshell, Brodeur wasn't as dominant over his generation as the goalies above him. Look at the first and second spots, and consider that Sawchuk, Hall and Plante were head-and-shoulders above ALL competition at various points in time.
I'm not going to go into detail, because you guys probably did that already, I just personally thought that Brodeur's consistency and goaltending records were going to make him a lot higher. Roy had some pretty darn good seasons in Colorado, but he also had some bad and mediocre seasons in Montreal. People always say that teams Roy backstopped for the Canadiens weren't very good, but at the same time, the teams Brodeur backstopped post-lockout up until last year weren't that good either. Granted, they didn't go that far but some of the regular season numbers of those teams were pretty crazy, 52 wins? He made some ****** teams look really good. I just personally think Brodeur is right there with Roy and Hasek, it's hard where to rank each one, they were both individually unique. You can argue Roy, Brodeur, and Hasek for each spot if you wanted to.

I get the innovation factor for the other guys, and it's really tough to compare, I see that. Comparing 1950s to the 90s and the 2000s is tough. I just personally think Brodeur deserves a higher ranking than that, he's right there with Roy and Hasek.

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11-15-2012, 03:12 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zippy316 View Post
I'm not going to go into detail, because you guys probably did that already, I just personally thought that Brodeur's consistency and goaltending records were going to make him a lot higher. Roy had some pretty darn good seasons in Colorado, but he also had some bad and mediocre seasons in Montreal. People always say that teams Roy backstopped for the Canadiens weren't very good, but at the same time, the teams Brodeur backstopped post-lockout up until last year weren't that good either. Granted, they didn't go that far but some of the regular season numbers of those teams were pretty crazy, 52 wins? He made some ****** teams look really good. I just personally think Brodeur is right there with Roy and Hasek, it's hard where to rank each one, they were both individually unique. You can argue Roy, Brodeur, and Hasek for each spot if you wanted to.

I get the innovation factor for the other guys, and it's really tough to compare, I see that. Comparing 1950s to the 90s and the 2000s is tough. I just personally think Brodeur deserves a higher ranking than that, he's right there with Roy and Hasek.
Those "bad" and "mediocre" seasons for Roy were in a much higher scoring environment than Brodeur played in. When you look at those season in context of their era they come out much better than you're indicating. You have to evaluate these things in context of era or the comparisons are meaningless.

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11-15-2012, 03:16 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Zippy316 View Post
I'm not going to go into detail, because you guys probably did that already,
We went into excruciating detail. Season-by-season, playoff-by-playoff. Advanced numbers... home/road splits... the whole nine. It's all conveniently packed into a single thread, Vote 1.

At the end of that thread, 24 people voted. Think about how large a group that is... it's almost the size of the Vezina voting pool. 24 opinions and perspectives, which have proven to be VERY fractured as of Vote 3. And of those 24, not a single one had Brodeur either first or second. Not one person who took the time to weigh all the evidence concluded that he should be #1... even fewer than the number who thought Hasek was in the top-6

It's not that I don't respect your opinion -- TBH, there was a time not long ago when I was seriously thinking that Brodeur was building a solid claim to the throne. But when 24 people actually sift through the portfolios and are unanimous that he's #3 at best you have to take a step back and honestly ask yourself if you've done your due diligence in forming your opinion.

I strongly recommend you take the advice you've been given here to read through Vote 1 at your leisure. It's an eye-opening collection of information, that will leave you pretty well assured that Brodeur is a fantastic career goalie but very clearly not #1 all time. If you don't want to do that, I'm not sure anyone here (or anywhere) can help you find the answers you're looking for.

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11-15-2012, 03:21 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
Those "bad" and "mediocre" seasons for Roy were in a much higher scoring environment than Brodeur played in. When you look at those season in context of their era they come out much better than you're indicating. You have to evaluate these things in context of era or the comparisons are meaningless.
Was 3.20 in 93 as bad as Brodeur's career low of 2.57 in 2006?

I mean, I get what your saying, but he had some pretty bad numbers. In 1994-1995, Brodeur had a 2.45 in 40 games and Roy had a 2.97 in 43. Like I said, I just think Brodeur's consistency and records. He was top 2 in wins in every season from 98 to the year after his elbow injury, sans the injury season. Games played had something to do with that, but that consistency is pretty hard to put up season in and season out. There is years in Brodeur's career were his GAA was .5 lower than Roy's in the same year. I'm sure many people are going to deny this, but I think that Roy going out on such a high note could influence some people, might not influence them entirely, but it will have some say.

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11-15-2012, 03:24 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Zippy316 View Post
Was 3.20 in 93 as bad as Brodeur's career low of 2.57 in 2006?

I mean, I get what your saying, but he had some pretty bad numbers. In 1994-1995, Brodeur had a 2.45 in 40 games and Roy had a 2.97 in 43. Like I said, I just think Brodeur's consistency and records. He was top 2 in wins in every season from 98 to the year after his elbow injury, sans the injury season. Games played had something to do with that, but that consistency is pretty hard to put up season in and season out. There is years in Brodeur's career were his GAA was .5 lower than Roy's in the same year. I'm sure many people are going to deny this, but I think that Roy going out on such a high note could influence some people, might not influence them entirely, but it will have some say.
First mistake: Using GAA to evaluate goaltenders. GAA is a TEAM stat that speaks as much to the quality of the team's defense as it does to the performance of the goaltender.

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11-15-2012, 03:29 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
First mistake: Using GAA to evaluate goaltenders. GAA is a TEAM stat that speaks as much to the quality of the team's defense as it does to the performance of the goaltender.
I'm not using it entirely, but having such wide gaps in it is something to be seen. You can't say Brodeur was better because he had a 2.1 and Roy a 2.11, but a big difference like that says something. Then again, you can say every stat is flawed. Save percentage doesn't cancel out the goals a goalie had no chance on, they don't give a goalie an almost-win for a stellar game that his team played terrible for.

The only real way to analyze this is to actually watch each goalie, and most of us can't really say we have, especially not the older guys. Most of the analysis has to use some sort of statistic as I doubt many of the voters were around to see guys like Plante and Hall play, if they were, they were very young.

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11-15-2012, 03:31 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
We went into excruciating detail. Season-by-season, playoff-by-playoff. Advanced numbers... home/road splits... the whole nine. It's all conveniently packed into a single thread, Vote 1.

At the end of that thread, 24 people voted. Think about how large a group that is... it's almost the size of the Vezina voting pool. 24 opinions and perspectives, which have proven to be VERY fractured as of Vote 3. And of those 24, not a single one had Brodeur either first or second. Not one person who took the time to weigh all the evidence concluded that he should be #1... even fewer than the number who thought Hasek was in the top-6

It's not that I don't respect your opinion -- TBH, there was a time not long ago when I was seriously thinking that Brodeur was building a solid claim to the throne. But when 24 people actually sift through the portfolios and are unanimous that he's #3 at best you have to take a step back and honestly ask yourself if you've done your due diligence in forming your opinion.

I strongly recommend you take the advice you've been given here to read through Vote 1 at your leisure. It's an eye-opening collection of information, that will leave you pretty well assured that Brodeur is a fantastic career goalie but very clearly not #1 all time. If you don't want to do that, I'm not sure anyone here (or anywhere) can help you find the answers you're looking for.
I'm not saying he's number one, but I'm saying he's right there with Roy and Hasek if you ask me.

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11-15-2012, 03:34 PM
  #38
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Can someone link me to the discussion on the "Hasek vote7"? I missed it and don't want to go through 3 threads of discussion each having a few hundred posts. I would be very interested to hear that argument.

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11-15-2012, 03:47 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
First mistake: Using GAA to evaluate goaltenders. GAA is a TEAM stat that speaks as much to the quality of the team's defense as it does to the performance of the goaltender.
This. Brodeur played on, quite easily, the most GAA-friendly team of his era. That doesn't mean he wasn't the best goalie -- but GAA is not the stat you'd want to use for that argument.

As for Roy's "high note" finish, I'd say his final playoff series put a major dent in his argument if anything, as it was the most visible example of a "choke" in his career. Brodeur's last playoff to date was a Cup Finals run in which he had a shot at the Smythe if the Devils had won. And when I checked my mail just now, he's the cover photo of the newest THN. I'd say the most recent memories actually favor Brodeur.

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11-15-2012, 03:58 PM
  #40
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I'm not saying he's number one, but I'm saying he's right there with Roy and Hasek if you ask me.
The best I can do for you is to say there's a small but definite gap between them, and even a razor-thin difference amounts to a few spots in a ranking this competitive.

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11-15-2012, 06:27 PM
  #41
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I'm not saying he's number one, but I'm saying he's right there with Roy and Hasek if you ask me.
Lets try save percentage instead of goals against.

Brodeur - 18 seasons, in the top ten in the league 6 times, never in top 2

Roy - 18 seasons, in the top ten in the league 15 times, 1st 4 times, 2nd twice

Hasek - 14 seasons, in the top ten in the league 11 times, 1st 6 times, 2nd once

Doesn't look close to me.

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11-15-2012, 09:42 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
We went into excruciating detail. Season-by-season, playoff-by-playoff. Advanced numbers... home/road splits... the whole nine. It's all conveniently packed into a single thread, Vote 1.

At the end of that thread, 24 people voted. Think about how large a group that is... it's almost the size of the Vezina voting pool. 24 opinions and perspectives, which have proven to be VERY fractured as of Vote 3. And of those 24, not a single one had Brodeur either first or second. Not one person who took the time to weigh all the evidence concluded that he should be #1... even fewer than the number who thought Hasek was in the top-6

It's not that I don't respect your opinion -- TBH, there was a time not long ago when I was seriously thinking that Brodeur was building a solid claim to the throne. But when 24 people actually sift through the portfolios and are unanimous that he's #3 at best you have to take a step back and honestly ask yourself if you've done your due diligence in forming your opinion.

I strongly recommend you take the advice you've been given here to read through Vote 1 at your leisure. It's an eye-opening collection of information, that will leave you pretty well assured that Brodeur is a fantastic career goalie but very clearly not #1 all time. If you don't want to do that, I'm not sure anyone here (or anywhere) can help you find the answers you're looking for.
I wish I possessed your eloquence.

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Old
12-04-2012, 11:41 AM
  #43
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I thought it would be interesting to compare your HOH Top Goaltenders of All Time (listed first) http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1270035 to the HOH Top 70 Players of All Time (2009) (listed second) http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...d.php?t=669817 . The 3 bolded players did not make the HOH Top 70 Players of All Time (2009) .

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HOH Top Goaltenders of All Time

1 Patrick Roy 6'1" 210 1965 1985-2003 Canada
2 Dominik Hašek 6'1" 165 1965 1980-2011 Czech
3 Jacques Plante 6'0" 175 1929 1986 1952-1975 Canada
4 Glenn Hall 5'11" 190 1931 1951-1971 Canada
5 Terry Sawchuk 5'11" 190 1929 1970 1949-1970 Canada
6 Martin Brodeur 6'2" 216 1972 1991-present Canada
7 Ken Dryden 6'4" 207 1947 1970-1979 Canada
8 Vladislav Tretiak 6'0" 200 1952 1968-1984 Russia
9 Frank Brimsek 5'9" 170 1913 1998 1938-1950 USA
10 Georges Vézina 5'6" 185 1887 1926 1910-1925 Canada
11 Charlie Gardiner 6'0 176 1904 1934 1927-1934 Canada

12 Clint Benedict 5'11" 185 1892 1976 1912-1931 Canada
13 Walter "Turk" Broda 5'9" 165 1914 1972 1935-1951 Canada
14 Bill Durnan 6'0" 190 1916 1972 1944-1950 Canada
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HOH Top 70 Players of All Time (2009)

12 39 Dominik Hasek G 6'2" 180 1990-2008
13 1 Jacques Plante G 6'0" 175 1952-1973;1974-1975
14 33 Patrick Roy G 6'0" 165 1984-2003
24 1 Terry Sawchuk G 5'11" 190 1949-1970
25 1 Glenn Hall G 5'11" 190 1952-53;1954-1971
37 30 Martin Brodeur G 6'1" 205 1991-1992;1993-Present
39 29 Ken Dryden G 6'4" 207 1970-1979
44 20 Vladislav Tretiak G 6'1" 202 1968-1984
53 1 Clint Benedict G 5'11" 185 1912-1930
54 1 Bill Durnan G 6'0" 190 1943-1950
59 1 Walter "Turk" Broda G 5'9" 180 1936-1943;1945-1952

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12-04-2012, 11:50 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by God Made Me View Post
I thought it would be interesting to compare your HOH Top Goaltenders of All Time (listed first) http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1270035 to the HOH Top 70 Players of All Time (2009) (listed second) http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...d.php?t=669817 . The 3 bolded players did not make the HOH Top 70 Players of All Time (2009) .
A coincidense they're three vintage guys?

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12-04-2012, 12:13 PM
  #45
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A coincidense they're three vintage guys?
Definitely not coincidence. I think google archives and other research into the early guys caused a major reevaluation of early players. Benedict, Broda, and Durnan went down as much as Vezina, Gardiner, and Brimsek went up. Gardiner an Brimsek were both on the 2008 top 100 list, just farther down. Only Vezina has seen massive movement so far, and I think it's justified

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12-04-2012, 01:23 PM
  #46
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In Gardiner's case, it might be easier for him to score highly among goaltenders alone, rather than all players combined. A goalie whose career is cut short after 7 excellent seasons is a little easier to project as a peer to the all-time greats than a skater who has the same career track. With the skater there's always the "we never saw him get older and slow down" angle, so unless it's a truly special case like Orr there's an assumption that a long career would involve a non-elite phase. Not necessarily the case with goalies, who usually have gentler declines. So in the context of comparing players of all positions simultaneously, Gardiner's record doesn't pop off the page quite as much.

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12-06-2012, 02:03 AM
  #47
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I don't know how to make fancy online graphs, but here are the number of goalies in the top 16 per year, based on their career span. This is by calendar year not season, since that's how the "career" column is listed.

up to 1909: none
1910-1911: 1
1912-1925: 2
1926: 1
1927-1931: 2
1932-1937: 1
1938-1944: 2
1944-1948: 3
1949-1950: 4
1951-1966: 3
1967: 4
1968-1969: 5
1970: 6
1971: 5
1972-1975: 4
1976-1984: 3
1985-1988: 2
1989-1990: 3
1991-2003: 4
2004-2008: 3
2009-2011: 2
2012: 1

Looks like a fair distribution to me. We are discounting pre-World War 2 goaltending it seems. Should we be? The peak around 1970 is just because of generational overlap between the O6 goalies and the 1970s goalies.


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 12-06-2012 at 02:38 AM.
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12-06-2012, 03:21 AM
  #48
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Good looking list. Only wish I knew enough about the history of the position to have contributed.

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12-06-2012, 09:46 AM
  #49
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Looks like a fair distribution to me. We are discounting pre-World War 2 goaltending it seems. Should we be? The peak around 1970 is just because of generational overlap between the O6 goalies and the 1970s goalies.
This more or less matches the distribution of the defenseman list, doesn't it?

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12-06-2012, 02:30 PM
  #50
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We are discounting pre-World War 2 goaltending it seems. Should we be?
Oh, I don't think so. 5 of our 16 hit their thirties prior to World War 2. Many of our post-WW2 goaltenders had longer careers than our early-20th Century goaltenders, particularly those born between 1900-1920.


1880-1899
Benedict: 19 years
Vezina: 15 years

1900-1919
Brimsek: 12 years
Broda: 16 years
Durnan: 6 years
Gardiner: 7 years

1920-1939
Hall: 20 years
Plante: 23 years
Sawchuk: 21 years

1940-1959
Dryden: 9 years
Esposito: 17 years
Tretiak: 16 years

1960-1979
Belfour: 19 years
Brodeur: 21 years
Hasek: 31 years
Roy: 18 years


More than that, while we have Benedict and Vezina representing the 1910s, we don't have a generation of fading stars from a prior era to boost the number of goaltenders on our list to appear in that decade.

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