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The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, and NHL revenues.

Mark Recchi's advice to players is to sign CBA now

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Old
11-15-2012, 04:07 AM
  #276
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
Lets say the players had a different league, and the owners kept the NHL, which would you watch?
I don't know, but it doesn't matter.

Thing is, the players don't have those resources and aren't willing to foot the risks that go along with such a venture. The owners are. And since they are, they make the rules. That's how the world works.

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11-15-2012, 04:10 AM
  #277
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They lack leadership and vision at the top, are being held back by archaic thinking, they are reactionary instead of progressive and they treat their employees and customers poorly.



Owners don't sign deals, they hire people to sign deals, or at least they should.



Grinding your employees is not the only way to increase profit, the NHL just isn't smart enough to figure how else to do it.
You mean like closing the biggest TV deal the league has had in its existence? Or how about the canadien TV deal that is coming up?

I do not agree the NHL has a lack of vision. To attrack smart owners you need a good leadership and a good CBA.

The league has been ready to negociate long ago but the NHLPA has had other plans. Thet are not negociating for the fans or for the game... They want as much miney they can get, even if it sinks the league because THEY have no vision. ( which is normal when your main skill is to play hockey)

BTW, the NHL is, to a point, doing this progressivly. The started with a cap and now the are adjusting it to a decent level in order to generate some profit by more then a handfull of teams.

In order for the league to be running, it is normal to put in place a CBA that enables at least 25 teams to make some profit.

Toi many teams you might say?

The number of teams is related to the TV deals. If you cut teams, you cut jobs and you cut revenues. If the league is doing everything it can to maintain PHO, it probably has something to do with the TV deals.

Baseball does not have a giod business model that is also good for the fans since itsvalways the same teams that win. So yes, the NHL is actually doing this with the fans in the equasion. Otherwise, they would copy baseball on don't guve a crap about the fact that a handfull of teams can only win. THIS was one of the reasons for a cap in the first place. Otherwise revenu sharing is enough.


Players need to take the deal and give the game back to the fans.

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11-15-2012, 04:10 AM
  #278
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The thing is, if it was just that one team, and the loss of money was a result of missing the playoffs, then you have a better case. But it's not. It is majority of the league in trouble.
I'm not saying the players shouldn't reduce their percentage, I'm saying the league should also take ownership of its part in the leagues failure.

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Originally Posted by Whydidijoin View Post
Most of the bad teams right now. There are very few bad GMs in the league right now, and even the worst one is a better option than any player and most people. Most bad outcomes are a result of bad luck or the general phasing of teams.

Sports management is a game of risks. Some pay off, some don't.
So its just bad luck that the same teams are terrible all the time? And the ones that are good are just lucky? Disagree.

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11-15-2012, 04:12 AM
  #279
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Originally Posted by Whydidijoin View Post
That doesn't even support what you said, and is negligible.
I didn't say anything; I just posted studies what I found.

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Originally Posted by Whydidijoin View Post
First, why is this only looking at elite players?
It wasn't, at least first study said

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I looked at all NHL players born 1962-79
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Second, this is out of date, and done during a terrible time period for any analytics.
Arguable, but not aware of anything newer.

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Third, why are you only looking at goals? These things called playmakers exist.
I'm not. First study was about points.

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Fourth, that data suggests that the current setup would see them get paid the most. Best season the year before payday.
Yeah, I find that kind of odd because in many cases when players hit UFA, they have already had their best seasons, and are paid what they achieved during those seasons.

But it doesn't matter I guess if one GM doesn't pay the money, some other will-


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Fifth, who cares if a couple of the older people had a better season in the past, largely as a result of who they played with at the time (and increased league scoring out of the lockout)? Going PPG or placing top-20 means you didn't drop off a cliff as claimed.
Idk, just thought pointing out. Those were just examples.

And if we look at the season after lockout, many guys have fallen off the cliff since, as they have gotten older. Or at least declined.

Staal had 100 points, was 21 at the time. He's declined a little, point wise. Was still what 21st in scoring with 70 points. Some of that can be attributed to decline in league scoring, some to that he's team isn't as strong.

Ovy was third in scoring; this season 37th. That can be attributed to numerous things which would deserve it's own thread (1500 threads in HfBoards, obviously).

Heatley was fourth with 103 points, age 25; this season 81st with 53 points.

Cheechoo was 26 when he won Richard that year but he's declines biggest reason is probably that knee injury (?).

Gionta was in top-20 that year and turned 27 that season. He was over ppg and hasn't come close to that since.

I think you said players enter their prime at 27 and it lasts 5 years or so, I'm just saying that I think it happens earlier, for most players. At least point/scoring wise.

It varies of course, there are anomalies to both directions. But many players seem to have their best season before they hit UFA; not after.

I agree that most players don't fell off the cliff when they turn 27 or aren't washed up when they are in their 30s, just that most players have their best years around ages 22-26.

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Old
11-15-2012, 04:12 AM
  #280
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
bogus how?

Have you heard of the dead puck era? Did you know Mario Lemieux retired because of it? The league let the on ice product go for **** for 10+ years without doing anything about it. 10 years of a poor product makes for little growth and a huge loss of potential profit.
Bogus because they were irrelevant or just plain wrong.

MOD Lemieux did not reture because of the dead puck era, and I have seen no proof to support that it was harmful to the NHL.


Last edited by Fugu: 11-15-2012 at 12:27 PM. Reason: ...
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Old
11-15-2012, 04:14 AM
  #281
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
Lets say the players had a different league, and the owners kept the NHL, which would you watch?
Moot question...
I would probably watch the owners one because the players can't afford a league. The owners would then need a few drafts ti bring in young super stars. Since the caliber of the league would be a little less strong, these new stars would look great and sell the game, once more.

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11-15-2012, 04:20 AM
  #282
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
I'm not saying the players shouldn't reduce their percentage, I'm saying the league should also take ownership of its part in the leagues failure.
You have still yet to point out these failures. They grew to 30 teams, they increased revenue substantially, they got a tv contract signed.

Certain teams being bad a lot is not a failure by the league. It is something that comes along with a league.

But the league is paying its part. And it's making a hell of a lot less than the players already.

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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
So its just bad luck that the same teams are terrible all the time? And the ones that are good are just lucky? Disagree.
No, teams that come into existence often go through an adjustment period. That's perfectly normal. And I didn't say it was all luck, but chance does play a big role. Also, they are not lucky they are good, they are good because they got lucky. There is a difference.

If you hadn't noticed, a lot of hockey is luck. We as humans can't evaluate others and hockey skills at a detailed enough level to have it not be.

Sometimes bad GM decisions play into teams being bad as well, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are a bad GM.

As they say in the new movie Wreck It Ralph, "you may be bad guy, but that doesn't mean you are a bad guy".

And the occasional bad GM is not something that can be foreseen or helped, so it is not on the league.

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11-15-2012, 04:20 AM
  #283
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Bogus because they were irrelevant or just plain wrong.
good points.

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11-15-2012, 08:58 AM
  #284
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Thing is, the players don't have those resources and aren't willing to foot the risks that go along with such a venture. The owners are. And since they are, they make the rules. That's how the world works.
Until there's a revolution and the masses take down the oppressive regime.

And let me tell you, the NHL with its guaranteed contracts giving out salaries 54 times greater than the average U.S. salary and its first-class everything, it just screams REVOLUTION!

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11-15-2012, 09:04 AM
  #285
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It is no secret that older retired players resent the money current players make (even when those older retired players made plenty of money themselves and played right through the late 90's explosion in player salaries).

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11-15-2012, 09:06 AM
  #286
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It is no secret that older retired players resent the money current players make (even when those older retired players made plenty of money themselves and played right through the late 90's explosion in player salaries).
Even if Recchi is bias, it doesn't necessarily mean he's wrong here.

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11-15-2012, 09:10 AM
  #287
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Even if Recchi is bias, it doesn't necessarily mean he's wrong here.
No, but I don't recall Recchi siding with ownership while he was a player, so I think it is hypocritical of him to criticize current players for defending their bargaining rights.

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11-15-2012, 09:16 AM
  #288
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It is no secret that older retired players resent the money current players make (even when those older retired players made plenty of money themselves and played right through the late 90's explosion in player salaries).
That's a lazy and unfounded argument.

First of all, Recchi made tonnes of money and just retired. Grouping him in with the players from decades ago who didn't make any money doesn't work. He has no reason to be jealous of todays players. Secondly, he has gone through this exact thing. He speaks from experience.

There are some cultish vibes coming from players/agents. Anyone questioning the NHLPA strategy is trying to undermine them and is an enemy and has to be silenced. Recchi is a respected veteran and has genuine concern for the well being of the players as a collective. If he is the enemy, you're not going to find many friends.

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11-15-2012, 09:22 AM
  #289
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It is no secret that older retired players resent the money current players make (even when those older retired players made plenty of money themselves and played right through the late 90's explosion in player salaries).
You realise that Recchi retired last year right?

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11-15-2012, 09:31 AM
  #290
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You realise that Recchi retired last year right?
Which makes his comments all the more disingenuous IMO.

If this is what he believes, why didn't he make these statements in 2004? Or in 1994?

Why didn't he speak up when Sergei Federov signed that ridiculous offer sheet with Carolina? Why didn't he speak up when Ilya Kovalchuk signed that joke of a contract?

Recchi has no skin in this game, and when he did, he didn't have the balls to speak up.

I just think it is real easy to throw stones into the fray when you aren't in it. And it shows a lack of respect for the guys actually going through it right now.

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11-15-2012, 10:08 AM
  #291
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Which makes his comments all the more disingenuous IMO.

If this is what he believes, why didn't he make these statements in 2004? Or in 1994?

Why didn't he speak up when Sergei Federov signed that ridiculous offer sheet with Carolina? Why didn't he speak up when Ilya Kovalchuk signed that joke of a contract?

Recchi has no skin in this game, and when he did, he didn't have the balls to speak up.

I just think it is real easy to throw stones into the fray when you aren't in it. And it shows a lack of respect for the guys actually going through it right now.
Wow, I honestly didn't think that you were being serious.

Recchi is talking about this CBA, not one 8 years ago, or 15 years ago. The league was not in a good shape then, it still isn't in a great shape now, but the direction is the right one.

This time around, the players are being offered a very lucrative deal, A deal that will see their salaries sky rocket regardless. Hell, a two year make whole deal has also been offered. This isn't just some organisation trying to squeeze every last penny out of it's employees, they are fighting to keep teams within the league.

I don't understand what Fehrs endgame is. Did he honestly believe losing half a season would be beneficial to the players? He's played his games, it's time to sign a deal. For the first time in an awfully long time, the coyotes are going to make a profit should there be no season. The owners can sit this one out quite easily.

The players can all keep coming back with "we would of played under the old CBA, the owners are clearly at fault for not letting us play", without realising that the old CBA was so player friendly it was crazy.

I could go on all day about this, but it looks like the pied piper has led the players into the river. I'm sure all the players will appreciate 0% of salary this year, for sticking it to the man, and fighting the fight of players down the line...........

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11-15-2012, 10:09 AM
  #292
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pilky01 View Post
Which makes his comments all the more disingenuous IMO.

If this is what he believes, why didn't he make these statements in 2004? Or in 1994?

Why didn't he speak up when Sergei Federov signed that ridiculous offer sheet with Carolina? Why didn't he speak up when Ilya Kovalchuk signed that joke of a contract?

Recchi has no skin in this game, and when he did, he didn't have the balls to speak up.

I just think it is real easy to throw stones into the fray when you aren't in it. And it shows a lack of respect for the guys actually going through it right now.
Hindsight is 20/20, as they say. He has the benefit of perspective now, realizing a lost season is not worth these supposed principles the players are advocating. And that they will lose more as this drags on. That much is an absolute certainty.

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11-15-2012, 10:29 AM
  #293
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Cox addresses these questions in an article todaye rather than tweets:

http://www.thestar.com/sports/hockey...-direction-cox

the Don Fehr-led organization has nonetheless been able to stay very consistent in its message for weeks.


Attack NHL commissioner Gary Bettman. Personalize the disagreement. Make it appear as though the labour battle is all Bettman’s doing. Emphasize that the union gave “massive” concessions seven years ago. Question why owners are gagged and not allowed to speak freely.

NHLPAers have hit those notes consistently over the first 60 days of the lockout along with repeating the charge that the NHL won’t negotiate fairly.

But Fehr, who has more control over the union than any executive director since Alan Eagleson, can’t control what is said by former NHL players.

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11-15-2012, 10:41 AM
  #294
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The Don Fehr-led organization has nonetheless been able to stay very consistent in its message for weeks.

Attack NHL commissioner Gary Bettman. Personalize the disagreement. Make it appear as though the labour battle is all Bettman’s doing. Emphasize that the union gave “massive” concessions seven years ago. Question why owners are gagged and not allowed to speak freely.

NHLPAers have hit those notes consistently over the first 60 days of the lockout along with repeating the charge that the NHL won’t negotiate fairly.
And very few, besides the players themselves, are buying it, and I truly wonder how many of the players are not buying it and just keeping their mouths shut for fear of retribution.

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11-15-2012, 10:48 AM
  #295
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Recchi has no skin in this game, and when he did, he didn't have the balls to speak up.
Who, with skin in the game, on either side, is speaking out now about how wrong their side is? I would think at least one owner, one player, would have differing views about their side of the negotiation, but of course you won't hear it.

The only time you might get an honest answer out of anyone is when they're no longer directly involved.

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11-15-2012, 10:50 AM
  #296
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Interesting article on the TSN website posted a couple of hours ago,

RECCHI: NHL, PLAYERS MUST SIGN CBA NOW AND DROP THE PUCK






I particularly agree with that point.
Smart guy, that Recchi.

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11-15-2012, 11:04 AM
  #297
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Whose salary has doubled (besides Gary's)?

Really? see below:

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1275909

Average to above-average TML players have seen salary increases of 300% - 600%. And this has been happening across the NHL.

Why don't you post some players' names whose salaries that have been reduced in 7 years. You can't do that, because there aren't any.


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The best players in the league were making more money 7 years ago then the best players now.
The best players still make the most money - is that news? Have you not seen the frontloaded contracts paying $12m + to the "best players?"

Was Bobby Holik a "best player" 7 years ago hauling in $9m?

What about the fact that average salaries have increased from 1.2m to 2.45m? And all NHL contracts are guaranteed? (unlike the insanely more successful NFL - on both counts) Any love for Gary here??

No, NHLPA members are not working in a coal mine 12 hrs a day, given only 5 holidays a year, a minimal healthplan, and no expenses. They're doing ok... (just trust me on this)

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11-15-2012, 11:06 AM
  #298
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Which makes his comments all the more disingenuous IMO.

If this is what he believes, why didn't he make these statements in 2004? Or in 1994?

Why didn't he speak up when Sergei Federov signed that ridiculous offer sheet with Carolina? Why didn't he speak up when Ilya Kovalchuk signed that joke of a contract?

Recchi has no skin in this game, and when he did, he didn't have the balls to speak up.

I just think it is real easy to throw stones into the fray when you aren't in it. And it shows a lack of respect for the guys actually going through it right now.
Please point one NHL player that said the last lockout was worth it.

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11-15-2012, 11:34 AM
  #299
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Baseball does not have a giod business model that is also good for the fans since itsvalways the same teams that win.
Uhhh...

The last 12 World Series winners were 9 different teams.
There were 3 repeat winners.

The Giants won twice before that they won in 1954

The Red Sox won twice before that they won in 1918

The Cardinals won twice before that they won in 1982

The MLB has changed even though your opinion of it hasn't.

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11-15-2012, 12:29 PM
  #300
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There are some cultish vibes coming from players/agents. Anyone questioning the NHLPA strategy is trying to undermine them and is an enemy and has to be silenced. Recchi is a respected veteran and has genuine concern for the well being of the players as a collective. If he is the enemy, you're not going to find many friends.
Here comes Chris Phillips to help me illustrate. Much appreciated.

"I guess I would say it’s an uninformed answer, unless he’s now tied in with ownership somewhere, or wants to get involved with ownership, and trying to take that side"

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