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Red Sox/MLB 2012 Thread Part XX-Time for Rebuilding

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Old
11-14-2012, 02:17 PM
  #226
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mione134 View Post
Marlins wanted Doubront, Middlebrooks, and Bogaerts as for Reyes, Johnson etc.

Good luck to the Jays cause that's ridiculous
And the Jays gave up the equivelent of something like Iglesias, Ciriaco, Doubront according to Mazz today. Just because they asked for all top tier prospects and a nice young pitcher, doesn't mean they'll get anything remotely close to that.

hat being said, I still wouldn't do that trade. They cleared all that salary to start fresh, getting all that back just like that would be stupid.

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11-14-2012, 02:32 PM
  #227
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grumblings that after the Blue Jays-Marlins deal is finalized, that Melky Cabrera could be a Blue Jay soon after.

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11-14-2012, 02:37 PM
  #228
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Originally Posted by ODAAT View Post
100% fair weather baseball fan, haven't sifted through the ton of pages or read much online about this deal. In your opinions, does a move(s) like this put the Jays in the conversation of playoffs next season??
If Johnson stays relatively healthy and Romero shows that last year was a fluke...I would say so.

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11-14-2012, 02:39 PM
  #229
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If Johnson stays relatively healthy and Romero shows that last year was a fluke...I would say so.
Thx, as little as I follow baseball, I have listened to the Jays GM a dozen or so times, doesn't seem to duck any questions/criticism, kind of like that

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11-14-2012, 02:48 PM
  #230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ODAAT View Post
100% fair weather baseball fan, haven't sifted through the ton of pages or read much online about this deal. In your opinions, does a move(s) like this put the Jays in the conversation of playoffs next season??
Definitely in the conversation, especially with two-wild card system. Health is a major issue for sure. If they were in the NL, they'd be one of the best teams for sure. I still think all of the AL playoff teams from this year have better rosters, except maybe the Yankees. That being said, the Angels missed the playoffs this season, and I think they have a better roster also. So in the conversation, but not a favorite IMO.

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Old
11-14-2012, 03:00 PM
  #231
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Originally Posted by JRull86 View Post
And the Jays gave up the equivelent of something like Iglesias, Ciriaco, Doubront according to Mazz today. Just because they asked for all top tier prospects and a nice young pitcher, doesn't mean they'll get anything remotely close to that.

That being said, I still wouldn't do that trade. They cleared all that salary to start fresh, getting all that back just like that would be stupid.
I think they gave up more than that, but not Middlebrooks + Bogaerts more. Entering the season Bogaerts was ranked #58 in BA's top 100 prospects, where as Marisnick was ranked #67.

I will say that I thought the Marlins did a lot better when Arencibia and Gose were mentioned as part of the deal, but neither were part of the final version of the deal. Toronto managed to keep a lot of key prospects including D'Arnaud, who would have stepped in for Arencibia and may have been more productive offensively. Knowing that they have the surplus of C's, I could see them continuing to shop Arencibia to try to round out their roster, which could be what puts them over the top.

The deal definitely makes the Blue Jays more interesting for the time being, no question about that.

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Old
11-14-2012, 04:42 PM
  #232
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kman22 View Post
I think they gave up more than that, but not Middlebrooks + Bogaerts more. Entering the season Bogaerts was ranked #58 in BA's top 100 prospects, where as Marisnick was ranked #67.

I will say that I thought the Marlins did a lot better when Arencibia and Gose were mentioned as part of the deal, but neither were part of the final version of the deal. Toronto managed to keep a lot of key prospects including D'Arnaud, who would have stepped in for Arencibia and may have been more productive offensively. Knowing that they have the surplus of C's, I could see them continuing to shop Arencibia to try to round out their roster, which could be what puts them over the top.

The deal definitely makes the Blue Jays more interesting for the time being, no question about that.
Bogaerts is a top 10 prospect now, Marisnick is not.

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Old
11-14-2012, 05:05 PM
  #233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kman22 View Post
I think they gave up more than that, but not Middlebrooks + Bogaerts more. Entering the season Bogaerts was ranked #58 in BA's top 100 prospects, where as Marisnick was ranked #67.

I will say that I thought the Marlins did a lot better when Arencibia and Gose were mentioned as part of the deal, but neither were part of the final version of the deal. Toronto managed to keep a lot of key prospects including D'Arnaud, who would have stepped in for Arencibia and may have been more productive offensively. Knowing that they have the surplus of C's, I could see them continuing to shop Arencibia to try to round out their roster, which could be what puts them over the top.

The deal definitely makes the Blue Jays more interesting for the time being, no question about that.
My point is, people believing that the Sox would give up the aforementioned are crazy. You're getting a very good SS, a good #2 in Johnson when healthy, and a reliable 3 in Buhrele. Those are not worth a 19 y/o power hitting SS/LF, a young power hitting MLB ready 3B, a 3-4th young lefty MLB starter+ more. The Jays gave up some decent to good prospects, but most of them are a few years away. Some of those pitchers are still in A ball.

Regardless, as a fan of baseball as a whole, I really want to know how Selig even allows this. Not because it's lopsided, but because of the fact that Loria YET AGAIN is going to take all the revenue sharing money and pocket it. Their payroll right now is $16 MILLION. The only reason the Marlins got that stadium approval from MLB/owners is because they promised to spend more. 3 years after approval they fire sale. Absolute joke.

Anyone who didn't see this happening is crazy too. Look at how Buhrele and Reye's deals are. They are so backloaded with salary. The Marlins payroll might've been $100 mil last year, but the actual cash out was significantly less.

Loria needs to be pushed out of baseball like Selig did with Frank mcCourt. he's nothing but bad for the game.

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Old
11-14-2012, 05:06 PM
  #234
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I tried to come up with a lineup to contend in 2014 and failed miserably.

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Old
11-14-2012, 05:20 PM
  #235
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruinswincup View Post
Bogaerts is a top 10 prospect now, Marisnick is not.
You think so? Bogaerts is a top 20 prospect for sure. Probably top 15. Top 10 might be a little high for now. If he hasn't made it to Boston by season's end, and he keeps progressing, he will be a top 10 prospect, maybe top 5.

The value they gave up is definitely more than Iglesias, Ciriaco, and Doubront.

Ciriaco << Escobar. Escobar is 30, Ciriaco is 27. That's what Ciriaco has in his favor. Escobar is a better player.

Alvarez and Doubront are comparable, but Alvarez is 3 years young. Doubront is LH, Alvarez is RH.

The 3 top 10 prospects are all rated higher than Iglesias, including the SS prospect.

DeSclafani is a high-ceiling, decent floor prospect.

Mathis is a throw-in, and will be a bench player.

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Old
11-14-2012, 05:25 PM
  #236
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Originally Posted by JRull86 View Post
My point is, people believing that the Sox would give up the aforementioned are crazy. You're getting a very good SS, a good #2 in Johnson when healthy, and a reliable 3 in Buhrele. Those are not worth a 19 y/o power hitting SS/LF, a young power hitting MLB ready 3B, a 3-4th young lefty MLB starter+ more. The Jays gave up some decent to good prospects, but most of them are a few years away. Some of those pitchers are still in A ball.

Regardless, as a fan of baseball as a whole, I really want to know how Selig even allows this. Not because it's lopsided, but because of the fact that Loria YET AGAIN is going to take all the revenue sharing money and pocket it. Their payroll right now is $16 MILLION. The only reason the Marlins got that stadium approval from MLB/owners is because they promised to spend more. 3 years after approval they fire sale. Absolute joke.

Anyone who didn't see this happening is crazy too. Look at how Buhrele and Reye's deals are. They are so backloaded with salary. The Marlins payroll might've been $100 mil last year, but the actual cash out was significantly less.

Loria needs to be pushed out of baseball like Selig did with Frank mcCourt. he's nothing but bad for the game.
I agree they wouldn't have made that deal, nor should they have. I do think Miami would have tried to leverage the fact that the Sox have missed the playoffs 3 years in a row in this market. I'm glad they passed.

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11-14-2012, 05:52 PM
  #237
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kman22 View Post
You think so? Bogaerts is a top 20 prospect for sure. Probably top 15. Top 10 might be a little high for now. If he hasn't made it to Boston by season's end, and he keeps progressing, he will be a top 10 prospect, maybe top 5.

The value they gave up is definitely more than Iglesias, Ciriaco, and Doubront.

Ciriaco << Escobar. Escobar is 30, Ciriaco is 27. That's what Ciriaco has in his favor. Escobar is a better player.

Alvarez and Doubront are comparable, but Alvarez is 3 years young. Doubront is LH, Alvarez is RH.

The 3 top 10 prospects are all rated higher than Iglesias, including the SS prospect.

DeSclafani is a high-ceiling, decent floor prospect.

Mathis is a throw-in, and will be a bench player.
Yeah top 15 is more likely for the moment, should be top 10 by season's end.

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Old
11-14-2012, 07:52 PM
  #238
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joe sheehan (a baseball writer) had a pretty good point about the marlins trade.

it's a good baseball trade for them. they basically punted on bad contracts and got futures back, much like the red sox.

people just hate it because the marlins constantly turn a profit through revenue sharing, got a sweetheart deal from the taxpayers of miami-dade county on their brand new stadium, and do this kind of thing all the ****ing time.

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Old
11-14-2012, 08:28 PM
  #239
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Originally Posted by robert terwilliger View Post
joe sheehan (a baseball writer) had a pretty good point about the marlins trade.

it's a good baseball trade for them. they basically punted on bad contracts and got futures back, much like the red sox.

people just hate it because the marlins constantly turn a profit through revenue sharing, got a sweetheart deal from the taxpayers of miami-dade county on their brand new stadium, and do this kind of thing all the ****ing time.
This time seems different since they are coming off a losing season, whereas their previous fire sales have followed World Series titles. People are angry about this trade, but they also dumped Heath Bell and Hanley Ramirez in the last 4 months. I can feel for Stanton, they gave him hope last winter and then quickly demolished the team.

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Old
11-14-2012, 10:16 PM
  #240
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Marlins also reportedly shopping Logan Morrison, who they've tried to make into an outfielder, but who played 1B all through the minors. There's apparently a school of thought that says he'll turn into a better hitter if he moves back to 1B where he's comfortable.

Had an .820 OPS on the road last year, but only a .608 OPS on the road. And he apparently likes hitting in Fenway Park.

I'd be interested, depending on how much he costs.

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Old
11-15-2012, 05:18 AM
  #241
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Originally Posted by kman22 View Post
This time seems different since they are coming off a losing season, whereas their previous fire sales have followed World Series titles. People are angry about this trade, but they also dumped Heath Bell and Hanley Ramirez in the last 4 months. I can feel for Stanton, they gave him hope last winter and then quickly demolished the team.
After letting Loria destroy baseball in Montreal and Miami, do Selig will finally get it? This is a case where the team will have to be sold because the fans base is ****** off by years of mediocrity that there's no way they will return to the ball park.

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11-15-2012, 08:18 AM
  #242
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My crappy plan involves some decent bats, solid pitching, and good defense.

Sign Mike Napoli, Adam LaRoche, and Cody Ross.

Trade Saltalamacchia for Gavin Floyd

Trade for Justin Masterson and Shin-Soo Choo (not sure what type of package this would take though)

Starting line-up/rotation:

CF Ellsbury
2B Pedroia
DH Ortiz
C Napoli
3B Middlebrooks
1B LaRoche
RF Choo
LF Ross
SS Iglesias

Lester
Masterson
Buchholz
Floyd
Doubront

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11-15-2012, 08:41 AM
  #243
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Originally Posted by SPV View Post
My crappy plan involves some decent bats, solid pitching, and good defense.

Sign Mike Napoli, Adam LaRoche, and Cody Ross.

Trade Saltalamacchia for Gavin Floyd

Trade for Justin Masterson and Shin-Soo Choo (not sure what type of package this would take though)

Starting line-up/rotation:

CF Ellsbury
2B Pedroia
DH Ortiz
C Napoli
3B Middlebrooks
1B LaRoche
RF Choo
LF Ross
SS Iglesias

Lester
Masterson
Buchholz
Floyd
Doubront
If Choo/Masterson aren't too costly, I'd be on board with that. I'd steer clear of LaRoche though, especially if they sign Napoli, mainly because of the draft pick comp. So Napoli plays first, Lavarnway catches.

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11-15-2012, 08:52 AM
  #244
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If Choo/Masterson aren't too costly, I'd be on board with that. I'd steer clear of LaRoche though, especially if they sign Napoli, mainly because of the draft pick comp. So Napoli plays first, Lavarnway catches.
Choo's a guy I really like but he is a Boras guy so pass; love Masterson but he's really a very good 4 capable of winning 12 or so and then if you get in the playoffs being a great long arm in the pen, or situation righty.

Heard the guy Francona wants is Pedroia- ummm, no. Guy is everything right with this team

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11-15-2012, 09:27 AM
  #245
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Choo is in the same situation as Ellsbury is...free agent after next year with Boras. Pass.

I rarely disagree with you DKH, but I think Masterson is slightly better than you give him credit for. I think he is a #3 on a playoff team. Granted, he did not pitch like it this year, but if his control is harnessed as it was in 2011 I think he could be not only an effective #3 starter for us, but an effective playoff starter as well.

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Old
11-15-2012, 09:42 AM
  #246
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Choo's a guy I really like but he is a Boras guy so pass; love Masterson but he's really a very good 4 capable of winning 12 or so and then if you get in the playoffs being a great long arm in the pen, or situation righty.

Heard the guy Francona wants is Pedroia- ummm, no. Guy is everything right with this team
Masterson and Floyd are both very good #4/#5 starters. As far as giving up assets for them, I'd be afraid that they would lose some of their effectiveness by the time this team was ready to compete. As you said, Choo might be gone after a year, so I'd be hesitant to give up assets for him as well. With that though, it also depends on the price. If for some reason they were looking for lower prospects, why not make the deal, but the top prospects should be guarded pretty well for the time being.

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11-15-2012, 09:45 AM
  #247
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Choo is in the same situation as Ellsbury is...free agent after next year with Boras. Pass.

I rarely disagree with you DKH, but I think Masterson is slightly better than you give him credit for. I think he is a #3 on a playoff team. Granted, he did not pitch like it this year, but if his control is harnessed as it was in 2011 I think he could be not only an effective #3 starter for us, but an effective playoff starter as well.
Stuff wise, Masterson is a very good pitcher, maybe borderline #2. He just can't find any sort of consistency. I view Floyd the same way, he has the ability to be a top half of the rotation guy, but he can seem to put it together day in and day out. If you are really confident in your pitching coach and the rest of your coaching staff, maybe take a chance and buy somewhat low on these guys, but as is, they aren't very consistent, which was a major issue last year for this team.

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11-15-2012, 10:01 AM
  #248
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11-15-2012, 10:05 AM
  #249
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It's fine for the right term. Price is not even the issue.

I'd be fine with 4/100. I just would not go longer than 4 years for him under any situation.

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11-15-2012, 10:24 AM
  #250
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I would give him 3/90 but have a feeling they'll do something stupid

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