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Philadelphia Phillies (MLB): The "Ruf"fled Offseason Thread

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11-14-2012, 08:27 AM
  #326
JDinkalage Morgoone
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It's what they do. They'll wind up winning a WS in like 3-4 years and then they'll trade all their players again.
Oh, I know. I am not surprised in the least, I just don't understand how the management think fans will just keep putting up with this crap over and over again. Sure, the trade doesn't look as bad on paper, but honestly, in a market struggling to maintain a large fanbase as it is, big name players are a pretty good help.

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11-14-2012, 08:39 AM
  #327
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They're probably just clearing all that space to trade for the clown A-Rod.

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11-14-2012, 08:47 AM
  #328
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Oh, I know. I am not surprised in the least, I just don't understand how the management think fans will just keep putting up with this crap over and over again. Sure, the trade doesn't look as bad on paper, but honestly, in a market struggling to maintain a large fanbase as it is, big name players are a pretty good help.
I think management realizes they have no fans lol. I mean they've won 2 WS in what, 15 years, and they still have no fans lol. I don't think baseball works in Florida.

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11-14-2012, 09:24 AM
  #329
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I think management realizes they have no fans lol. I mean they've won 2 WS in what, 15 years, and they still have no fans lol. I don't think baseball works in Florida.
Anyone who defends the management of the Florida Marlins should be embarrassed. Building a fanbase is as much about trust as anything. You buy season tickets BEFORE a team plays. If they win, then immediately trade away everyone or lose and trade away everyone, then how in the world can someone commit to buy tickets or renew a season ticket package?

Look at the Nationals. If they traded away everything they had because they didn't get the fan commitment from day one, they'd be where the Marlins. Building that fanbase takes more than a year. What really happened is that Loria swindled the city of Miami into building him a new stadium with mostly public dollars. Now, he gets to rake in the revenue sharing, limited concessions, limited ticket sales, TV rights, etc all with a payroll around 20-25 million. This is 100% about profitability and not about building a brand. He did the same thing in Montreal and why MLB let him own another team is really beyond me.

As bad as attendance was last season, the Marlins turned a profit.

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11-14-2012, 09:57 AM
  #330
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Originally Posted by Broad Street Elite View Post
Anyone who defends the management of the Florida Marlins should be embarrassed. Building a fanbase is as much about trust as anything. You buy season tickets BEFORE a team plays. If they win, then immediately trade away everyone or lose and trade away everyone, then how in the world can someone commit to buy tickets or renew a season ticket package?

Look at the Nationals. If they traded away everything they had because they didn't get the fan commitment from day one, they'd be where the Marlins. Building that fanbase takes more than a year. What really happened is that Loria swindled the city of Miami into building him a new stadium with mostly public dollars. Now, he gets to rake in the revenue sharing, limited concessions, limited ticket sales, TV rights, etc all with a payroll around 20-25 million. This is 100% about profitability and not about building a brand. He did the same thing in Montreal and why MLB let him own another team is really beyond me.

As bad as attendance was last season, the Marlins turned a profit.
Well I'm not really defending them, I'm just saying what they do, and honestly I don't care what they do. Also, I think winning has a lot more to do with building a fan base than trust, and they've won, and they still have no fans. The Rays have had winning teams, and they still have no fans. I think it has a lot to do with the area, and I think that management knows it, and does what they do to make money from it.

Look at the Braves attendance. They have won a ton in the past 20 years, and they've had a good team the past several, yet their attendance is mediocre at best. I'm not sure the South East is really an MLB area right now, for whatever reason.

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11-14-2012, 11:00 AM
  #331
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#phillies honcho dave montgomery on josh hamilton: "I don't think there's a whole lot we're not considering."

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11-14-2012, 11:57 AM
  #332
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Am i the only person here who wouldn't mind getting Hamilton?

I know all the cons, but the man can flat out hit, and that's something we could use.

I still think i'd take upton over hamilton, though.

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11-14-2012, 12:58 PM
  #333
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Am i the only person here who wouldn't mind getting Hamilton?

I know all the cons, but the man can flat out hit, and that's something we could use.

I still think i'd take upton over hamilton, though.
My concern with Hamilton has more to do with the contract it probably takes to get him, then his ability.

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11-15-2012, 12:04 AM
  #334
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Originally Posted by Protest View Post
Well I'm not really defending them, I'm just saying what they do, and honestly I don't care what they do. Also, I think winning has a lot more to do with building a fan base than trust, and they've won, and they still have no fans. The Rays have had winning teams, and they still have no fans. I think it has a lot to do with the area, and I think that management knows it, and does what they do to make money from it.

Look at the Braves attendance. They have won a ton in the past 20 years, and they've had a good team the past several, yet their attendance is mediocre at best. I'm not sure the South East is really an MLB area right now, for whatever reason.
As a baseball fan, Loria is exactly the kind of owner you don't want to see. You're right, I follow the Phillies and so the Marlins struggling is good for my team, but overall, it's terrible for the sport to have franchises run into the ground. Using your Braves analogy, Atlanta has had little trouble marrying up profitability with competitiveness in spite of attendance deficiencies. The reality is that any new franchise has got to build from the ground up and the ownership of that team needs to expect that there will be financial loses in the build-up phase. Its part of the investment costs in my opinion.

In Florida, they have undermined their own build up at every avenue. First Huezinga, now Loria. I firmly believe that a solid ownership group could build a competitive and profitable team in Florida. Will they ever be a top 10 drawing team? Unlikely, but attendance is but on aspect of profitability. Concessions, sponsors, TV, merchandise all make up a significant portion of that pie.

Taken in isolation and strictly from a baseball perspective, what Florida did would seem reasonable. They got a tremendous return on mediocre, overpaid investments. That said, if your one of the 22k they got every night or one of the taxpayers who sponsored $360 million of their new stadium under the pretense that it was necessary for a more successful, competitive team, there's no way you can't feel betrayed.... again. There's simply no way that Loria is taking those dollars and re-investing them in player development or whatever to expedite a rebuild. He's padding the bottom line as he has for the last 15 years over 2 franchises.

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11-15-2012, 12:08 AM
  #335
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My concern with Hamilton has more to do with the contract it probably takes to get him, then his ability.
I can't see him getting more than a 4-5 year deal from anyone. I have no problem saying that 5 years 100 million on Hamilton is a better all around investment than what Howard got a couple back (even before the injury).

I don't think we sign him since he's probably looking for his first and only payday and we are unlikely to be the highest bidder.

I expect him in Baltimore honestly.

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11-15-2012, 09:34 AM
  #336
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The way the negotiating stars are aligning, B.J. Upton is moving into the vortex of a Braves-Phillies competition for a center fielder.

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11-15-2012, 09:37 AM
  #337
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.....wooooo......

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11-15-2012, 09:37 AM
  #338
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I hope the Phillies avoid the urge to have to win a bidding war. There are still a number of CF options out there and eliminating a bidder for Hamilton and/or Bourn isn't the worst thing that could happen. This is a case where being first out of the gate isn't necessarily the best option.

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11-15-2012, 09:38 AM
  #339
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.....wooooo......
Are you in favor of Upton or not?

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11-15-2012, 09:39 AM
  #340
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Kind of surprised they want Upton over Bourn... I dunno, it's just me. If we don't land Upton, should we try for Bourn again?

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11-15-2012, 09:41 AM
  #341
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Amaro should wait. Not sure this would happen again, but few years back we jumped on polanco right away and beltre ended up hanging around and went for one year 10 million. Same with the closer situation last year and papelbon/madsen

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11-15-2012, 09:46 AM
  #342
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It would be amazing if Amaro can get both Hamilton and Upton. Phillies are reportedly not worried about going over the luxury tax this year. Just don't give Hamilton anything more than 4-5 years. Upton I think they would go 6 with because of his age. It's a pipe dream, but Amaro has pulled some amazing things off before. If they did manage to get both, what would our lineup look like?

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11-15-2012, 09:52 AM
  #343
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Are you in favor of Upton or not?
I was a couple years ago, but because I thought that his home/away splits showed that he might be better than what his overall numbers show. However, I'm not so sure of that anymore.

He's also had attitude issues, and is another guy who strikes out a lot and doesn't get on base often. I'm not sure he's really that great of a fit.

EDIT: Actually he's probably the perfect fit now that I think about it.

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11-15-2012, 09:56 AM
  #344
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Originally Posted by Protest View Post
I was a couple years ago, but because I thought that his home/away splits showed that he might be better than what his overall numbers show. However, I'm not so sure of that anymore.

He's also had attitude issues, and is another guy who strikes out a lot and doesn't get on base often. I'm not sure he's really that great of a fit.

EDIT: Actually he's probably the perfect fit now that I think about it.
Scouts all still see plenty room for him to improve. I believe that's why a lot of teams are really interested in him.

I am not worried about attitude issues when it comes to the Phillies. You never really hear anything negative about our club house. We have excellent veteran leadership(Halladay, Howard, Utley, Lee, of course Chooch, Rollins), if they can't keep Upton in line, there really isn't hope for him.

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11-15-2012, 10:03 AM
  #345
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Scouts all still see plenty room for him to improve. I believe that's why a lot of teams are really interested in him.

I am not worried about attitude issues when it comes to the Phillies. You never really hear anything negative about our club house. We have excellent veteran leadership(Halladay, Howard, Utley, Lee, of course Chooch, Rollins), if they can't keep Upton in line, there really isn't hope for him.
I'm not a scout, but he's going to be 29 this year, and his numbers haven't been good since 2008. Honestly, it depends on how much money he's going to get, but I can't imagine him coming in cheap.

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11-15-2012, 11:49 AM
  #346
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It would be amazing if Amaro can get both Hamilton and Upton. Phillies are reportedly not worried about going over the luxury tax this year. Just don't give Hamilton anything more than 4-5 years. Upton I think they would go 6 with because of his age. It's a pipe dream, but Amaro has pulled some amazing things off before. If they did manage to get both, what would our lineup look like?
It might be amazing in the way of our team being bloated with long contracts and big money tied up in aging and declining players. 5 years on Hamilton AND 6 on Upton would be a horrible move, let alone one.

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11-15-2012, 12:08 PM
  #347
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It might be amazing in the way of our team being bloated with long contracts and big money tied up in aging and declining players. 5 years on Hamilton AND 6 on Upton would be a horrible move, let alone one.
While I agree with the overall sentiment, I don't believe its the UFA deals that bite us as much as the trades. Young talent rarely, if ever, reaches free agency. Therefore, the only place you really can spend actual salary is on aged vets or locking up your young prospects.

I care less about a deal for Hamilton OR Upton (not both) than I do about the Phillies giving away future inexpensive talent for a 1-2 year patch.

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11-15-2012, 12:17 PM
  #348
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Amaro should wait. Not sure this would happen again, but few years back we jumped on polanco right away and beltre ended up hanging around and went for one year 10 million. Same with the closer situation last year and papelbon/madsen
I think Beltre told the Phillies he didn't want to sign here so they moved on. I'd rather have Papelbon over Madsen.

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11-15-2012, 12:20 PM
  #349
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It would be amazing if Amaro can get both Hamilton and Upton. Phillies are reportedly not worried about going over the luxury tax this year. Just don't give Hamilton anything more than 4-5 years. Upton I think they would go 6 with because of his age. It's a pipe dream, but Amaro has pulled some amazing things off before. If they did manage to get both, what would our lineup look like?
Rollins
Upton
Hamilton
Howard
Ruiz/Utley
Utley/Ruiz
Mayberry/Brown/Ruf
Frandsen

Doubt they go after both. Upton seems more likely since he is both a RH bat and can play good defensive CF.

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11-15-2012, 12:48 PM
  #350
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I was a couple years ago, but because I thought that his home/away splits showed that he might be better than what his overall numbers show. However, I'm not so sure of that anymore.

He's also had attitude issues, and is another guy who strikes out a lot and doesn't get on base often. I'm not sure he's really that great of a fit.

EDIT: Actually he's probably the perfect fit now that I think about it.
The Phillies actually didn't strike out that much in relation to the rest of the league- 4th fewest. Only Cleveland, Minnesota, and KC had fewer (some of the worst teams in the league). It's partly because they don't walk and get deep into counts. And strikeouts aren't as bad as people make them out to be. Seven of the top ten teams in strikeouts were playoff caliber teams. With strikeouts generally comes production- RBIs and walks (there are exceptions). Now you can't have a team loaded with strikeout guys, but 2 or 3 isn't always bad.

As far as him not getting on base, I mentioned this in a post a few months ago, but BJ Upton has one of the strangest careers you will ever see from year-to-year. He's had two .380+ OBP seasons and hasn't been close since. Will he ever get there again? Probably not because his batting average on balls in play hasn't been anywhere close to those seasons, but he's not a sub .300 OBP guy either. His walk rate dipped to a career low 7% last year. His career rate is almost 11%. It's pretty obvious he changed his approach last year. I think you can expect him to get closer to his career rate than last seasons rate. He also provides the threat on the bases that we lack without Victorino. He's a pretty good fielder with a cannon of an arm and he's supposedly in the prime of his career.

As far as CF options, there aren't as many as people think. Hamilton isn't a long term CF option. Cody Ross and Melky Cabrera aren't CF's. That leaves Bourn, Upton, Victorino, and Pagan.

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