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Does Anybody Here Remember Vera Lynn? (CBA & Lockout Discussion) XXVIII ‎

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Old
11-15-2012, 09:12 AM
  #376
Alesle
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Originally Posted by patnyrnyg View Post
With a salary cap, the concept of RFA, UFA, and RFA with or without Arb rights is just plain unnecessary. People want to use the NBA and NFL as their guideline for the revenue split. Well, not sure on the NBA as I do not follow but the NFL has a much LESS restrictive free-agnecy process.
First off, NFL careers are on average much shorter than NHL careers. NFL also doesn't have any minor leagues; the drafted players enter the league at a much older age and are expected to contribute (in some fashion) right away. Consequently the typical NFL UFA age is 27, which also happens to be the typical UFA age for NHL players.

Based on this, I believe the current systems of the leagues are 'equally restrictive' for the players, and shouldn't need much change.

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11-15-2012, 09:13 AM
  #377
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There's not going to be a season unless the owners agree not to cut the players' current aggregate pay. That's been the case for at least a month, probably more.
That is fine as a bargaining position, but just dont follow that with 'wanting to fight for future generations' or that it is 'not about money'.

Better optics to say 'honor their contracts', but it really just translates to 'get ours'

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11-15-2012, 09:27 AM
  #378
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Originally Posted by RoytoSakic View Post
Shawn Simpson ‏@SSimpsonHockey

Chris Campoli of all people, got into a heated battle, with Leonsis, Jacobs, and Leopold! Bettman had to step in. #Bizzare #NameCalling

Found this tweet to be a bit interesting plus its confirmation that Campoli really did get annoyed with the owners. Not sure if the name calling hash tag means that things got really heated or its just an assumption. By the way the guy I'm quoting for this tweet is a Minnesota Wild consultant among other things.
Looks bad on the PA; showing signs of frustrations, maybe the PA is cracking and all this work Fehr put in to build PA solidarity will be all for not. If the PA begins cracking Fehr is ****ed!

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Old
11-15-2012, 09:29 AM
  #379
jeety mcjeet
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No I don't think those guys are going to lose any sleep over it. He's a fringe player, lots of those around. He may have punched his ticket to bovine university.
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Originally Posted by MacOfNiagara View Post
That is fine as a bargaining position, but just dont follow that with 'wanting to fight for future generations' or that it is 'not about money'.

Better optics to say 'honor their contracts', but it really just translates to 'get ours'
If you want your contracts honored the best way it get it is to play a full schedule. Given the PA's lack of impulse to engage in negotiations prior to the lockout I'd say there is a hidden agenda.

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11-15-2012, 09:31 AM
  #380
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Originally Posted by MacOfNiagara View Post
That is fine as a bargaining position, but just dont follow that with 'wanting to fight for future generations' or that it is 'not about money'.

Better optics to say 'honor their contracts', but it really just translates to 'get ours'
It's all about money. If it were about anything else they'd be playing by now. Goes for both sides, though. I just wish the NHLPA didn't make it sound like they were getting completely screwed, because I don't believe they are. Will you still be making millions? Yeah? You can only afford 5 ferraris and not 6? Hmm.

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11-15-2012, 09:31 AM
  #381
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Originally Posted by GordieHoweHatTrick View Post
Looks bad on the PA; showing signs of frustrations, maybe the PA is cracking and all this work Fehr put in to build PA solidarity will be all for not. If the PA begins cracking Fehr is ****ed!
Honestly I could see the players cracking so much so that it would force Fehr to do something. Fehr be on the top of the pyramid of who's in charge, but to be up there, you need support.

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Old
11-15-2012, 09:32 AM
  #382
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NHL needs to go public with a final deadline for Fehr.

I want to see what the PA is made of.

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11-15-2012, 09:33 AM
  #383
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Originally Posted by jeety mcjeet View Post
If you want your contracts honored the best way it get it is to play a full schedule. Given the PA's lack of impulse to engage in negotiations prior to the lockout I'd say there is a hidden agenda.
Apparently Fehr did not want to leave no stone unturned, which is why it took so long to begin negotiating. Still, I think timelines and deadlines are as much a PA bargaining tactic as they are the Owners'. Only difference is the Owners are the ones setting the deadlines and the PA is the ones showing a lack of urgency, declining proposals and refusing to make adequate ones themselves.

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11-15-2012, 09:37 AM
  #384
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Originally Posted by Stuck in Socal View Post
NHL needs to go public with a final deadline for Fehr.

I want to see what the PA is made of.
Havent they already had 2 or 3 "this is our final offer" dealines come and go?

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Old
11-15-2012, 09:37 AM
  #385
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Originally Posted by SolidSnakeUS View Post
Honestly I could see the players cracking so much so that it would force Fehr to do something. Fehr be on the top of the pyramid of who's in charge, but to be up there, you need support.
Have you read Trying his luck at puck: Examining the MLBPA's history to determine Don Fehr's motivation for agreeing to lead the NHLPA and predicting how he will fare ?

Someone else posted this in a previous thread and I'm just passing it on.

Enjoy

EDIT: Just noticed the poster you passed the link to HF made a thread about it. Thanks WretchedOil!

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Old
11-15-2012, 09:43 AM
  #386
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Originally Posted by Soundwave View Post
It's true the NHL may be emboldening Fehr and the PA by caving every time and coming back to the table with a deal better than the last one what ....? Like three times already.

Wouldn't surprise me if Fehr's plan is to wait this out even longer and see if he can't fish out a better deal in December, January (or gulp) can the season altogether. You very well could be right.

Both sides are yapping a lot, but Fehr really only responds to concrete action, and basically right now, you're 100% right. He's been rewarded for having this lock out go on longer. Every offer the NHL comes back after a few weeks is better than the last one. He has no incentive to sign a deal now.
This might be true, because Fehr can claim he is winning the battle by waiting, but he is really loosing the war. The math on lost pay works against the players so quickly that this is a flawed strategy.

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Old
11-15-2012, 09:44 AM
  #387
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Y'know what would be fun?

We should get 3 pro-player and 3 pro-owner forumers together in teams and let them negotiate a deal. Then when this is all over, see how it differs from the actual.

Without even seeing the teams, I predict a <1% difference in dollar value.

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Old
11-15-2012, 09:49 AM
  #388
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
Y'know what would be fun?

We should get 3 pro-player and 3 pro-owner forumers together in teams and let them negotiate a deal. Then when this is all over, see how it differs from the actual.

Without even seeing the teams, I predict a <1% difference in dollar value.
Can I be a constituent like Campoli?

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Old
11-15-2012, 09:53 AM
  #389
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Originally Posted by GordieHoweHatTrick View Post
Looks bad on the PA; showing signs of frustrations, maybe the PA is cracking and all this work Fehr put in to build PA solidarity will be all for not. If the PA begins cracking Fehr is ****ed!
I don't know if it shows signs of cracking but it does show the problems of taking people who appear to have little idea what they're doing into a high stakes negotiation.

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Old
11-15-2012, 09:54 AM
  #390
jeety mcjeet
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
Y'know what would be fun?

We should get 3 pro-player and 3 pro-owner forumers together in teams and let them negotiate a deal. Then when this is all over, see how it differs from the actual.

Without even seeing the teams, I predict a <1% difference in dollar value.
+1. This is a neat idea. There are enough good posters on here who make good arguments to do this. Put a time limit on it say 3 hrs.

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Old
11-15-2012, 09:57 AM
  #391
Mike Jones
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Originally Posted by jeety mcjeet View Post
Agreed. Campoli is enough of a fringe player that the outburst may be enough to blacklist him.
I can't remember - were there any players blacklisted for their union involvement in the last lockout?

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Old
11-15-2012, 09:58 AM
  #392
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
Y'know what would be fun?

We should get 3 pro-player and 3 pro-owner forumers together in teams and let them negotiate a deal. Then when this is all over, see how it differs from the actual.

Without even seeing the teams, I predict a <1% difference in dollar value.
This would be a good way of proving that average fans meeting around beers and coffees could solve this mess in under an hour.

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Old
11-15-2012, 09:59 AM
  #393
Freudian
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
Y'know what would be fun?

We should get 3 pro-player and 3 pro-owner forumers together in teams and let them negotiate a deal. Then when this is all over, see how it differs from the actual.

Without even seeing the teams, I predict a <1% difference in dollar value.
I'm mostly pro-owners on economics and pro-players on contracts so I can figure this one out myself.

Economics: players get 55%, 52%, 50%, 50%, 50% 50%. None of that make whose nonsense. Cap ceiling for this year $70M. They get to keep all other benefits negotiated upon and the increased revenue sharing.

Player contract: Contract can't differ more than 5% year to year and the NCAA loophole is closed. Everything else the players get to keep.

Problem solved. All we need to do is paint "Thank you Fans" on the ice and drop the puck.

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Old
11-15-2012, 10:00 AM
  #394
jeety mcjeet
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I can't remember - were there any players blacklisted for their union involvement in the last lockout?
I can't remember either. Strange because it only feels like yesterday.

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Old
11-15-2012, 10:01 AM
  #395
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Piere Lebrun. Time to fish or cut bait:
http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/i...l-be-permanent

Know this: s. The long-term damage incurred by this league and industry canít be undone, at this point. ...

And so at this point all that remains is salvaging whatís left of a chance to play hockey this season...

The NHL has informed the NHLPA that talks wonít resume unless/until the players have new ideas or a new proposal to reignite things. Owners donít want to move an inch at this point. Theyíre furious that their $211 million "make-whole" offer was rebuffed so easily....

NHLPA executive director Don Fehr.... has done a "masterful" job so far in terms of managing this lockout, getting the league to move on key issues such as revenue sharing, and keeping his players on board through it all. Heís also frustrated the league to no end. But Fehrís grading is far from complete. His most important test is coming. Unless Iím completely misreading the tea leaves, I canít think of very many NHL players who are willing to sacrifice an entire season of hockey just so they can make a point to commissioner Gary Bettman.

..... if Iím an NHL player, I demand that Fehr over the next 2-3 weeks cut his losses and try to make the best deal possible from whatís left on the table. ........

And hereís where the read on Fehr gets widely different takes. On the one hand, there are people who believe Fehr has always shown an ability to feel the pulse of his membership and if itís a deal they want, heíll deliver one when the time is right.

But there are others who doubt his true intentions.

"I think he wants to rewrite labor negotiations; the game is not his priority," said one NHL team executive.

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11-15-2012, 10:04 AM
  #396
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I'm mostly pro-owners on economics and pro-players on contracts so I can figure this one out myself.

Economics: players get 55%, 52%, 50%, 50%, 50% 50%. None of that make whose nonsense. Cap ceiling for this year $70M. They get to keep all other benefits negotiated upon and the increased revenue sharing.

Player contract: Contract can't differ more than 5% year to year and the NCAA loophole is closed. Everything else the players get to keep.

Problem solved. All we need to do is paint "Thank you Fans" on the ice and drop the puck.
what ncaa loophole?

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Old
11-15-2012, 10:06 AM
  #397
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If I'm 95% of the PA that's a terrifying article. Hopefully they are smart enough to speak up for what's in their best interest.

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11-15-2012, 10:06 AM
  #398
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what ncaa loophole?
Wheeler/Schultz becoming UFAs.

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11-15-2012, 10:07 AM
  #399
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I would agree, I don't think the game of hockey is a concern for Mr. Fehr. He'll go nuclear on the season if left with the choice. Hopefully he isn't left with that choice.

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11-15-2012, 10:09 AM
  #400
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I would agree, I don't think the game of hockey is a concern for Mr. Fehr. He'll go nuclear on the season if left with the choice. Hopefully he isn't left with that choice.
It's a union - isn't it the membership making the decisions?

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