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Round 2, Vote 4 (HOH Top Goaltenders)

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Old
11-15-2012, 03:00 AM
  #1
TheDevilMadeMe
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Round 2, Vote 4 (HOH Top Goaltenders)

IMPORTANT NOTE: I will NOT be collecting votes for every vote this time. The second post of every voting thread will contain instructions as to who to send your votes to (it will be either seventieslord or TheDevilMadeMe). If you send your votes to the wrong person, we can't guarantee that they will be counted.

Before we begin, just a recap on how Round 2 will operate:

Round 2
  • The top 7-10 ranked players from the aggregate list will be posted in a thread
  • Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
  • Voters will rank their top available goaltenders
  • Final results will be posted and the top 4 vote getters will be added to the final list in order.
  • The process will be repeated for the next 4 places with remaining players until a list of 60 players is obtained

These might be tweaked to allow longer or shorter debating periods depending on how the process moves along.

Additionally, there are a couple guidelines we'd ask that everyone agree to abide by:
  • Please try to stay on-topic in the thread
  • Please remember that this is a debate on opinions and there is no right or wrong. Please try to avoid words like "stupid" "dumb" "wrong" "sophistry" etc. when debating.
  • Please treat other debaters with respect
  • Please don't be a wallflower. All eligible voters are VERY HIGHLY encouraged to be active participants in the debate.
  • Please maintain an open mind. The purpose of the debate is to convince others that your views are more valid. If nobody is willing to accept their opinions as flexible there really is no point in debating.

Eliglible Voters (27):
Bring Back Scuderi; Canadiens1958; ContrarianGoaltender; DaveG; Dennis Bonvie; Dreakmur; foame; Hawkey Town 18; intylerwetrust; Jagorim Jarg; Johnny Engine; MadArcand; Mike Farkas; MXD; Nalyd Psycho; pappyline; quoipourquoi; reckoning; seventieslord; steve141; Sturminator; Taco MacArthur; tarheelhockey; TheDevilMadeMe; tony D; VanIslander; vecens24

All posters are encouraged to participate in the debates and discussions, but only those listed above will be eligible for the final votes.

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11-15-2012, 03:06 AM
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Vote 3 will begin now and debates are scheduled to run through Tuesday, November 27th at 7:00 PM EST. You may PM votes to me (TheDevilMadeMe) starting on November 25th.

I will be sending out confirmations when I receive ballots from the voters. Any voter who does not get a confirmation within 24 hours of submitting a ballot should assume I never received it and should either resubmit it or contact me to arrange a different method to submit the ballots.

Please note that you are ranking 8 of 10 candidates this time.

Vote 4 will be for places 13 through 16 on the Top 40 list.

Here are the candidates, listed alphabetically:

Ed Belfour
Johnny Bower
Turk Broda
Bill Durnan
Tony Esposito
Jiri Holecek
Bernie Parent
Billy Smith
Tiny Thompson
Roy Worters

MOD NOTE: Posts that don't focus on the available goalies will be deleted or moved at the discretion of the moderators.


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 11-25-2012 at 03:00 PM.
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11-15-2012, 03:50 AM
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All Star Teams for Roy Worters and Tiny Thompson

Roy Worters

Note that we don't have official All-Star Teams from before 1930-31. However, we have this hockey card from the 1930s indicates that he was voted "The League's Best Goalie" 4 times. And later, we found an unofficial GM-voted All-Star team from 1927-28 with Worters as the 1st Teamer. Based on Hart voting, I think it's likely that Worters was the 1st Teamer in 1926, 1927, 1928, and 1929 in unofficial voting.
  • 1st Team All Star (1926) over ? (Charles Stewart was 2nd in Hart voting among goalies)
  • 1st Team All Star (1927) over ?
  • 1st Team All Star (1928) over George Hainsworth and Alec Connell
  • 1st Team All Star (1929)
  • no records for 1930 (but Charlie Gardiner led goalies in Hart voting)
  • 3rd Team All Star (1931) behind Charlie Gardiner and Tiny Thompson
  • 2nd Team All Star (1932) behind Charlie Gardiner, ahead of George Hainsworth
  • 3rd Team All Star (1933) behind John Ross Roach and Charlie Gardiner
  • 2nd Team All Star (1934) behind Charlie Gardiner, ahead of Tiny Thompson
  • 3rd Team All Star (1935) behind Lorne Chabot and Tiny Thompson

Certainly an impressive all-star record. One downside to Worters is that nobody seems to have remembered him as the best goalie of all time as of the 1940s. People mention Charlie Gardiner, and then skip Worters generation looking back and mention Georges Vezina and Clint Benedict. Another downside is the playoffs - Worters never won a playoff series and has a 3-6 record overall in the playoffs.

Tiny Thompson
  • In 1930, Thompson was awarded the Vezina for best GAA but Charlie Gardiner is the only goalie who got significant Hart votes. No record of All Star Teams.
  • 2nd Team All Star (1931) behind Charlie Gardiner, ahead of Roy Worters
  • In 1933, Thompson won the Vezina for best GAA but was 4th in All Star voting behind John Ross Roach, Charlie Gardiner, and Roy Worters. Otherwise unheard of in this era and points to a perception that he was a product of his team.
  • 3rd Team All Star (1934) behind Charlie Gardiner and Roy Worters
  • 2nd Team All Star (1935) behind Lorne Chabot, ahead of Roy Worters
  • 1st Team All Star (1936) ahead of Wilf Cude and Mike Karakas (Thompson's 3rd Vezina season)
  • 3rd Team All Star (1937) behind Normie Smith and Wilf Cude
  • 1st Team All Star (1938) ahead of Dave Kerr and Wilf Cude (Thompson's 4th Vezina)

I think there is good reason to believe that Thompson was something of a product of his team. He was awarded 4 Vezinas for best GAA, but finished behind Gardiner in Hart voting in 1930, and finished behind 3 other goalies in All Star voting in 1933. He was a 1st Team All Star in 1936 and 1938 but against historically terrible competition.

Charlie Gardiner died after 1934 and the generation of HHOFers he competed against (guys like Worters, Hainsworth, and Connell) were on their way out due to age. From 1935-1938 (when Thompson got 3 of his 4 official postseason All Star nods), competition was awful with the only HHOFers left in the league aging and non-HHOFers like Wilf Cude, Normie Smith, and Dave Kerr getting All-Star nods.

The Bruins finished 1st in the regular season 4 times with Thompson in goal, but only won a single Cup. As soon as Thompson was replaced by Brimsek, they won 2 in 3 years.

Thompson starts this round out of my top 8. At the very least, he should be ranked under Roy Worters.


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11-15-2012, 04:07 AM
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Postseason All Star votes for the rest

Turk Broda

1st Team All Star (1941, 1948)
2nd Team All Star (1942)
3rd Team All Star (1943, 1947, 1949, 1950)

Broda was a rookie in 1937, but not an All Star until 1941. He was top 3 in All Star voting every year for a decade except the 3 seasons he missed due to World War 2. (He only played 16 games in 1945-46, as a late return from the war).

Bill Durnan

1st Team All Star (1944, 1945, 1946, 1947, 1949, 1950)
3rd Team All Star (1948)

Durnan's career lasted only 7 seasons, but he was a 1st Team All Star all 6 times his team made the playoffs, and 3rd in voting the 1 season his team didn't. Two important caveats:

1) The 1st Team AS seemed to automatically go to the leader in GAA so long as he played the full season.

2) His 1944 and 1945 All Star Teams were literally against AHL competition, and his 1946 All Star Team wasn't much better. Every other NHL starter from 1943 went off to war for 1944 and 1945 (including the only 3 to get All Star votes in 1943 - Johnny Mowers, Frank Brimsek, and Turk Broda), and Durnan was left to beat up on what was left. Durnan's 1946 All Star Team wasn't much better, as Brimsek (34 of 50 games) and Broda (16 of 50 games) arrived late from the war. Brimsek was a 2nd Teamer, despite only playing 68% of the games in an era where starters usually played 100%

Johnny Bower

1st Team All Star (1961) - over Glenn Hall and Gump Worsley
3rd Team All Star (1962) - behind Jacques Plante and Glenn Hall
3rd Team All Star (1964) - behind Glenn Hall and Charlie Hodge
3rd Team All Star (1965) - behind Roger Crozier and Charlie Hodge
3rd Team All Star (1968) - behind Gump Worsley and Ed Giacomin

Tony Esposito

1st Team All Star (1970) - over Ed Giacomin and Jacques Plante
3rd Team All Star (1971) - behind Ed Giacomin and Jacques Plante
1st Team All Star (1972) - ahead of Ken Dryden and Gerry Cheevers
2nd Team All Star (1973) - behind Ken Dryden, ahead of Gilles Villemure
2nd Team All Star (1974) - behind Bernie Parent, ahead of Gilles Gilbert
3rd Team All Star (1978) - behind Ken Dryden and Don Edwards
1st Team All Star (1980) - ahead of Don Edwards and Mike Liut

The only time Esposito finished ahead of Dryden was when Dryden was a rookie. Plante was 41 and 42 years old in 1970 and 71. Esposito got signiificant All-Star consideration, but the Ed Giacomin was the best goalie who was in his prime when Esposito beat him for an All-Star nod (if we assume Parent's prime was those 2 great years).

Bernie Parent

1st Team All Star (1974) - over Tony Esposito and Gilles Gilbert
1st Team All Star (1975) - over Rogie Vachon and Gary Smith

Parent is hurt by stopping at the "3rd Team," as he was 4th in All Star voting in both 1969 and 1970.

Billy Smith

1st Team All Star (1982) - over Grant Fuhr and Rick Wamsley

Smith was a 1st Team All Star in 1982 by a wide margin, but this is the only season he received a significant number of votes. GMs gave him the Vezina in 1982 (the first voted on Vezina), and he was 4th in Vezina voting in 1983 (much higher than he was in All Star voting).

Smith was outstanding in the playoffs for a dynasty, but so were Turk Broda and Johnny Bower. Smith platooned in the regular season with Chico Resch, who was good enough to be a solid starter in the league, which definitely hurt Smith when it came to All Star votes. Even so, I think he ranks at least a little below Broda and Bower. Smith starts this round as the other guy out of my top 8.

Ed Belfour

1st Team All Star (1991) - over Patrick Roy and Andy Moog
3rd Team All Star (1992) - behind Patrick Roy and Kirk MacLean
1st Team All Star (1993) - ahead of Tom Barrasso and Felix Potvin
2nd Team All Star (1995) - behind Dominik Hasek, ahead of Jim Carey
3rd Team All Star (1998) - behind Dominik Hasek and Martin Brodeur
3rd Team All Star (2003) - behind Martin Brodeur and Marty Turco

Belfour was 4th in All Star voting in both 2000 and 2004. I find his record quite impressive, when you consider the competition.

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11-15-2012, 05:50 AM
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intylerwetrust
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hmm, I had Worters quite lower....

Broda and Durnan are locks imo, followed by Parent and Bower for me.

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11-15-2012, 06:47 AM
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I don't think there could possibly be a round where no. 9 and no. 10 would be so obvious.

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11-15-2012, 06:50 AM
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Really? Which two out of Thompson, Smith and Esposito?

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11-15-2012, 06:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
Really? Which two out of Thompson, Smith and Esposito?
Curious question, considering Esposito was really close to Top-8 last round...

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11-15-2012, 07:04 AM
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MadArcand
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Just pointing out that perceptions differ. And those three are my bottom 3, pending discussion and arguments in their favor.

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11-15-2012, 07:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
Just pointing out that perceptions differ. And those three are my bottom 3, pending discussion and arguments in their favor.
Being close to Top-8 last round was a fact. Not a perception. If Esposito was Bottom-2 material IN THE PRESENT ROUND, he probably wouldn't have been ranked at all last round.

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11-15-2012, 07:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MXD View Post
Being close to Top-8 last round was a fact. Not a perception. If Esposito was Bottom-2 material IN THE PRESENT ROUND, he probably wouldn't have been ranked at all last round.
What? He was bottom-2 last round. You do realize that we had only 10 names up for vote, and he finished 9th?

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11-15-2012, 07:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
What? He was bottom-2 last round. You do realize that we had only 10 names up for vote, and he finished 9th?
Yeah.

9 - 4 (guys that got in last round) = 5

Thus Espo bottom-2 this round is... extremely unlikely, considering 2 new entrants look extremely weak vis-เ-vis Espo.

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11-15-2012, 07:40 AM
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That's not necessarily true. All we can assume from the last round is that he's unlikely to be last, as Bower was behind him already.

So which two do you think are clearly behind him?

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11-15-2012, 09:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
That's not necessarily true. All we can assume from the last round is that he's unlikely to be last, as Bower was behind him already.

So which two do you think are clearly behind him?
I can only surmise that you think one Jacques Lemaire shot is worth about 6-7 spots on an all-time list. Without that, I can't imagine how one wouldn't consider his resume among the four best this round.

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11-15-2012, 09:48 AM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I can only surmise that you think one Jacques Lemaire shot is worth about 6-7 spots on an all-time list. Without that, I can't imagine how one wouldn't consider his resume among the four best this round.
I definitely have Esposito in my top 8, but I struggle to fit him in my top 4. Like I said, I think he's a clear step down from Eddie Belfour.

It's not just the Jacques Lemaire shot. Generally, scoring goes down in the playoffs across the board, but Esposito's GAA raises from 2.92 in the regular season to 3.07 in the playoffs. I know I argued in the defensemen thread that his defense has to take some blame too, but I don't think Esposito escapes blameless, either.

Edit: Here is the career playoff GVT for the post-1950 goalies here. Remember that this hurts Original 6 goalies who played when the playoffs were only 2 rounds long.

1. Patrick Roy 119.3
2. Ed Belfour 71.2
3. Billy Smith 59.5

4. Ken Dryden 57.4
5. Martin Brodeur 56.9 (as of 2011, my guess is 2012 bumped him to #3)
6. Dominik Hasek 56.3
7. Jacques Plante 49.4
8. Curtis Joseph 42.6
9. Grant Fuhr 33.6
10. Johnny Bower 31.3
11. Bernie Parent 31.1
12. Tom Barrasso 25.7
13. Chris Osgood 25.1
14. Tony Esposito 24.2
15. J.S Giguere 24.0
16. Olaf Kolzig 23.8
17. Felix Potvin 22.7
18. Mike Richter 22.0


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11-15-2012, 09:50 AM
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I'm still a huge Bower fan - I had him highly rated last round.

Can someone show me the error of my ways?

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11-15-2012, 10:06 AM
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My thought on first look here: Holecek prettymuch jumps out to be in my next voting group unless we can find reason to place him lower. A lot of the stronger points re: Holecek were made in the debate of Tretiak a couple threads back. While I did take away from (and enter into FWIW) that debate thinking that Tretiak was the stronger of the two, Holecek shouldn't be too far behind in inclusion on this list.

But that said, is Holecek good enough to jump Durnan and Broda? Because he might have to in order to get in this round.

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11-15-2012, 10:06 AM
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The fall of Bill Durnan needs to stop this round.

He's getting far too penalized for playing during the war.

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11-15-2012, 10:09 AM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
I'm still a huge Bower fan - I had him highly rated last round.

Can someone show me the error of my ways?
Just like Esposito, I compare Bower to Belfour. I see each of Bower and Belfour as the clear 4th best goalie of his generation. But Belfour has a significantly longer career with significantly more All Star consideration, against what I think is better competition (Sawchuk and Plante were both past their primes when Bower was in his and neither was a threat for the All Star teams most seasons). Bower was stuck in a platoon situation in Toronto, which hurt him in the All Star Teams, but how much? Bower was fantastic in the playoffs, but Belfour was fantastic too.

I'm entering this round thinking that Belfour's regular season advantage over Bower is larger than any playoff advantage that Bower might have over Belfour.

Keep in mind, however, I've always been part of the "Bower is probably overrated by hfboards" line of thought, so take my opinion accordingly.

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11-15-2012, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
I'm still a huge Bower fan - I had him highly rated last round.

Can someone show me the error of my ways?
No matter how beloved, he was a career AHLer who joined Toronto in his mid-30s and stuck around long enough to finally enjoy some team success as part of the last Leafs dynasty while in his late 30s/early 40s. I would, personally, have a hard time rating that too highly, regardless of team success and GAAs from ~10 game playoff samples and seasons platooning with Sawchuk as a 40 year old.

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11-15-2012, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveG View Post
My thought on first look here: Holecek prettymuch jumps out to be in my next voting group unless we can find reason to place him lower. A lot of the stronger points re: Holecek were made in the debate of Tretiak a couple threads back. While I did take away from (and enter into FWIW) that debate thinking that Tretiak was the stronger of the two, Holecek shouldn't be too far behind in inclusion on this list.

But that said, is Holecek good enough to jump Durnan and Broda? Because he might have to in order to get in this round.
Holecek is definitely my favorite of the new candidates - I actually had him in my top 10 over Tretiak on my submitted list. That might have been a tad too high, but I do think he should be in the conversation with Parent and Esposito for 3rd best goalie of the 70s.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
The fall of Bill Durnan needs to stop this round.

He's getting far too penalized for playing during the war.
I think Durnan rightfully falls below Charlie Gardiner, but this might be the time to add him.

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11-15-2012, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
No matter how beloved, he was a career AHLer who joined Toronto in his mid-30s and stuck around long enough to finally enjoy some team success as part of the last Leafs dynasty while in his late 30s/early 40s. I would, personally, have a hard time rating that too highly, regardless of team success and GAAs from ~10 game playoff samples and seasons platooning with Sawchuk as a 40 year old.
I'm critical of Bower's high placement on past top 100 lists on this board too, but I think this is too far. He was a 3 time MVP of the AHL in an era where his only chance to play in the NHL was to beat out Toronto's existing starter in a 6 team league.

And when he platooned with post-prime Sawchuk, Bower usually badly outperformed Terry in both GAA and reconstructed save %

I did ask in a previous round what makes Bower's NHL career much better than Billy Smith's, though. I do think Bower's AHL dominance in the Original 6 adds to his resume, but how much?

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11-15-2012, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
The fall of Bill Durnan needs to stop this round.

He's getting far too penalized for playing during the war.
Do you think he's getting penalized for playing during the war, or not having enough on his resume outside of the war (on both ends of the age spectrum)? I think it's more the latter.

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11-15-2012, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I'm critical of Bower's high placement on past top 100 lists on this board too, but I think this is too far. He was a 3 time MVP of the AHL in an era where his only chance to play in the NHL was to beat out Toronto's existing starter in a 6 team league.

And when he platooned with post-prime Sawchuk, Bower usually badly outperformed Terry in both GAA and reconstructed save %

I did ask in a previous round what makes Bower's NHL career much better than Billy Smith's, though. I do think Bower's AHL dominance in the Original 6 adds to his resume, but how much?
It's important, of course, to realize that goalies in the day were certainly competing for limited spots compared to today. But I've never seen any argument formed that would convince me that any award at the AHL level should have much weight at all (even back then), given the "talent" in the league (based on gleaming rosters, top scoring lists, and goaltending competition over those years).

Treated like any other comparison that we do, who was his competition for those MVPs in the AHL? What was the quality of shooter/opponent/team? All of a sudden I have to ask, how long until we "find out" that Bower's individual career doesn't even match up to that of Tim Thomas, since we have to be fair and point out that he received similar awards in multiple pro leagues (Eliteserien, SM-Liiga) and was an AHL standout before getting his chance?

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11-15-2012, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I'm critical of Bower's high placement on past top 100 lists on this board too, but I think this is too far. He was a 3 time MVP of the AHL in an era where his only chance to play in the NHL was to beat out Toronto's existing starter in a 6 team league.

And when he platooned with post-prime Sawchuk, Bower usually badly outperformed Terry in both GAA and reconstructed save %

I did ask in a previous round what makes Bower's NHL career much better than Billy Smith's, though. I do think Bower's AHL dominance in the Original 6 adds to his resume, but how much?
Bower was not property of an NHL team for most of his AHL career. The Rangers traded for him, and Toronto claimed him in the Inter-League Draft.

Considering that the starting goalies in the NHL were 4-5 deep in future HHOFers, and the 5th-6th guy was usually pretty decent (Henry, Rollins, McNeil), it's not hard to see why nobody felt the need to trade for a goalie at the time. Even the Rangers probably wouldn't have if Rayner hadn't got hurt.

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