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AAA 2012 Draft

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Old
11-15-2012, 12:13 AM
  #451
seventieslord
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Round 10

My favourites:


1. Kyle McLaren. It's surprising to look back and see how relied on this guy actually was, for very good teams.
2. Bret Hedican. A 21 minute, 1000 game player. It was usually for bad teams, but then these teams tended to get hot and get to the finals, and he was a part of that. An interesting career.
3. Lowell MacDonald. Best offensive prime among wingers when he was taken.

Need more selling on:

Errol Thompson. For a guy who, correct me if I'm wrong, was an offense-only player, a career high of 80 points playing with Sittler, and an otherwise career high of 54 points, is not AAA scoring line material.

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11-15-2012, 12:14 AM
  #452
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Need more selling on:

Fred Higginbotham. What is out there on this guy?
His bio is upcoming... (there's more than there is for James Stewart)


Last edited by Hedberg: 11-15-2012 at 12:32 AM.
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11-15-2012, 12:19 AM
  #453
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The Macon Whoopee select Wes Walz, C


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Old
11-15-2012, 12:20 AM
  #454
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Round 11

My favourites:


1. Herbert Collins. I would have been fine with him, but couldn't sell my co-GM on him. Admittedly, there is not much out there, and the case is circumstantial.
2. Ron Murphy. Great consistency/longevity for when he played. It's just really hard trying to figure out what he did. Didn't really have an offensive peak, aside from that season with Espo, but topped 27 points 11 times. Didn't appear to be physical, and has no SHP in his career, so was likely not a defensive guy. Still, I like it because even if you assume he was a below average player for 900 games, that's good considering it was the O6 era. (same standard I'd apply to a defenseman right now). See AA10 when VI selected him, and we had the same conversation; we didn't really know what we liked about him; we just knew we did, and it was at the point where he deserved selection even if he was a mystery.
3. Greg Malone. Another Ron Schock lite.

Need more selling on:

Errol Thompson. For a guy who, correct me if I'm wrong, was an offense-only player, a career high of 80 points playing with Sittler, and an otherwise career high of 54 points, is not AAA scoring line material.

Also, James Neal is in about the same boat, although I think his Malkin-driven peak season is a little more impressive, plus he made the AST (he almost made both!) and has much more of an edge to his game, counteracted by a shorter career.

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11-15-2012, 12:25 AM
  #455
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Round 12

My favourites:


1. Laurie Boschman. We coveted him hard for our 4th line C spot.
2. Bep Guidolin. One of the better O6 scoring wingers left, and he had an edge to him too.
3. Mark Osborne. A good guy to win puck battles for a scoring line. You lose something in offense with him, but he is one of the best here for that role.

Need more selling on:

1. Kevin McClelland. Nothing wrong with players who fight, but there are so many guys who were much more useful overall.
2. Dan Cleary. What am I missing? career high 46 points, so nothing special offensively. Not much of a defensive forward. Not a big physical presence. Kills some penalties, but not much. "competent" is the best word for him but I just don't see what separates him from other available players.

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11-15-2012, 12:31 AM
  #456
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Round 13

My favourites:


1. Martin Lapointe. We were extremely close to taking him for a 2nd line puckwinning role but decided to go with the guy with more upside. But we still had him on the backburner for later. If we had known you were taking all ATD2011 players, maybe we would have grabbed him
2. Tomas Plekanec. Good offensive and defensive peak. If he keeps this up longer he's a future ATDer.
3. George Ferguson. Versatile, good defensively and a consistently decent ES scorer. I've always liked him.

Need more selling on:

Benoit Hogue. Only because I have to pick someone. He's not a bad pick, but I didn't think he was near the top of the pile offensively, defensively, or overall, and he didn't bring any particular one skill that would fill a niche that I know of.

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11-15-2012, 02:52 AM
  #457
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Man, I always look forward to reading your assessments of the picks. But I'm surprised you'd need more selling on Benoit Hogue while considering Plekanec a favourite pick, as he basically did as much for much longer. Also surprised that you picked the leech prototype Burrows and then mention Derek King relying on his centers.

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11-15-2012, 02:54 AM
  #458
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
1. Ron Schock. Excellent defensive game, and what makes his offensive record any worse than Tim Young's?
So, we have established that seventies doesn't like Tim Young.

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11-15-2012, 05:21 AM
  #459
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Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
Man, I always look forward to reading your assessments of the picks. But I'm surprised you'd need more selling on Benoit Hogue while considering Plekanec a favourite pick, as he basically did as much for much longer. Also surprised that you picked the leech prototype Burrows and then mention Derek King relying on his centers.
First off, Burrows wasn't drafted for his offense. He brings a lot of other things to the Sedin line - grit, annoyance, speed, defense, PK, etc - and that's what we drafted him for.

The fact that he outscored the guys that he was leeching off of for 4 straight seasons is just a bonus!

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11-15-2012, 06:57 AM
  #460
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Really? What separates him from a Dan Cleary then, if not his Sedin-fueled offense? 'Annoyance'? That's a reason to draft a player?

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11-15-2012, 08:08 AM
  #461
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Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
Really? What separates him from a Dan Cleary then, if not his Sedin-fueled offense? 'Annoyance'? That's a reason to draft a player?
Sedin-feuled or not, leading an elite team in even strength scoring for 4 consecutive seasons is a pretty good offensive peak.

Burrows is a good forechecker, a solid two-way player, a gritty competitor, and a good aggitator. He's also been part of Vancouver's go-to PK unit since 2006.

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Old
11-15-2012, 08:40 AM
  #462
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Goalscoring, not scoring. Fairly logical, with playmaking-biased Sedins as linemates.

Anyway, I'm not saying Burrows ain't a good player, but as I said, it's odd to trash the likes of King and Cleary when only a little separates him from them.

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11-15-2012, 09:48 AM
  #463
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Sedin-feuled or not, leading an elite team in even strength scoring for 4 consecutive seasons is a pretty good offensive peak.

Burrows is a good forechecker, a solid two-way player, a gritty competitor, and a good aggitator. He's also been part of Vancouver's go-to PK unit since 2006.
Offensive zone starts of ~75% with the Sedins really boosts his stats. Compare that to Cleary who people for some reason slag off in comparison who had 55% offensive zone starts. Burrows plays 1 and a minute more per game. Cleary scored 33 points last season with Drew Miller and Darren Helm as his most regular linesmates and Burrows scored a whopping 52 on Vancouvers first line.

There is reasons to believe that any agitator with a nack for goalscoring would produce similiar results as Burrows.

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11-15-2012, 09:49 AM
  #464
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We pick Cooney Weiland, Coach

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Old
11-15-2012, 10:04 AM
  #465
seventieslord
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
Man, I always look forward to reading your assessments of the picks. But I'm surprised you'd need more selling on Benoit Hogue while considering Plekanec a favourite pick, as he basically did as much for much longer. Also surprised that you picked the leech prototype Burrows and then mention Derek King relying on his centers.
Hogue was never in Plekanec' league defensively. Some have called Plekanec one of the best in the league. I never heard of Hogue being in that category. And offensively, Plek also has two seasons better than Hogue ever did, and if I'm not mistaken, in hogue's three best seasons (adjusted pts 68, 63, 61) he benefitted greatly from Turgeon. Hogue peaked at 4th on his team in scoring despite this, and Plekanec has led his team twice and been 2nd one.

As far as King goes, it's not just that he relied on his centers, it's that he brought nothing else at all to the table. Looking at both King and Hogue, it looks like their centers outscored them at ES in both goals and assists across the board, usually by a lot, except for King's 1997, when he led a weak Hartford team.

So statistically, Burrows is not the same kind of animal, as he has outscored his linemates in goals four years running now. Not that I'm not aware they have had a positive effect on his totals, of course.

And as for Cleary, you must be joking if you think he provides close to the same speed, toughness, grit, forechecking, defense, agitation and penalty killing that Burrows does. How many first line players in today's NHL are this multi-faceted?

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11-15-2012, 10:14 AM
  #466
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I could add that Cleary out scored his linesmates in 2011.

Edit: He was signed by the Red Wings as a defensive minded glue guy to their top-6 but yet he is not that good defensively?

Edit2: McClelland brings everything Burrows brings to a checking line except offense. He was fast, gritty, tough and a great hitter.


Last edited by jkrx: 11-15-2012 at 10:34 AM.
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11-15-2012, 10:29 AM
  #467
seventieslord
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
I could add that Cleary out scored his linesmates in 2011.
if he did, that's great, now let's see him do it four times.

Quote:
Edit: He was signed by the Red Wings as a defensive minded glue guy to their top-6 but yet he is not that good defensively?
As I recall, he was signed by the wings as a reclamation project, his career nearly off life support. Everyone was surprised at how competent he's been and how he fit into their team. It's not like he's been an offensive or defensive star. He's just been a decent player.

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11-15-2012, 10:32 AM
  #468
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
So, we have established that seventies doesn't like Tim Young.
I had to laugh at this, only because last year the guy who had Tim Young ended up making almost the exact same comment!

to clarify, I like every player. there's a right time to pick anyone.

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11-15-2012, 10:39 AM
  #469
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to clarify, I like every player.
This would be more believable if you didn't wage long-term campaigns against the ones you chose not to draft.

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11-15-2012, 10:42 AM
  #470
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As I recall, he was signed by the wings as a reclamation project, his career nearly off life support. Everyone was surprised at how competent he's been and how he fit into their team. It's not like he's been an offensive or defensive star. He's just been a decent player.
I'm actually referring to statements made by Holland and Babcock after his one-year contract were up. Nobody calls him a star though which makes it even more funny that you seem to pretend that Burrows are.

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11-15-2012, 10:45 AM
  #471
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looks like Hedberg was skipped and we are up.

We select the guy who we are pretty sure is the best PK forward remaining - Bill Collins, RW.



Collins' career PK usage number is 54%, giving him the highest usage among any post-expansion forward remaining. He played throughout the 1970s, when the balance of power was heavily unbalanced, yet managed to run PKs that were just 4% below the league average.

Interestingly, Collins’ teams were 17% worse than the league average at ES, when he had very little control over matters (i.e. he was one of just 12 forwards, on the ice only about 20% of the time). But on the PK, when he had LOTS of control over it, they were just 4% below average.

After another available guy at 53% usage, there are 10 wingers in the 35-41% range available now, so he stands out big time compared to the pack.

Another way he stands out: His even strength scoring. Collins averaged 29 adjusted ESP per season. Draft any other winger with high PK stats right now, and you're looking at 11-25 adjusted ESP/season.

In addition, with 768 games, he's played more NHL games than most other available PK forwards, making his per-game stats even more impressive in comparison.

Pasted from an earlier draft:

Quote:
When looking at penalty killing stats for available players, Bill Collins sticks out like a sore thumb. He was a journeyman, but everywhere he went, he was a major part of the penalty kill. Having killed 54% of his team's penalties, he's the most prolific PK forward out there, and his team's PK was only slightly below average, in a time where the average was badly skewed by a handful of very strong teams. His 0.35 ESPPG is also a tremendous number for a player of his ilk: when looking down the list of prolific penalty killers, you have to go all the way down to a 42% penalty killer to find a player who scored more often at even strength (and this is an active player in his prime; his PK average and ESPPG will both likely regress to the mean like most stats do in longer careers)

Collins was the North Stars' top penalty killing forward in 1969 and 1970, then both the Habs (top PK in NHL) and the Wings in 1971 in partial seasons with each, then also on the 1973 wings (3rd best PK in NHL) and 1975 Blues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Complete Handbook Of Pro Hockey 1972
an expert penalty killer and handyman type who checks very well...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Complete Handbook Of Pro Hockey 1975
primarily a defensive winger, but collected 21 goals two years ago... excels as a penalty killer... earned reputation as an "honest" hockey player.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Complete Handbook Of Pro Hockey 1978
workhorse type with a love for the game, who is handy to have around... can help Caps because of his work habits and maturity... in spite of many moves, retains winning attitude he developed while with canadiens... a true handyman.

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11-15-2012, 10:49 AM
  #472
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
This would be more believable if you didn't wage long-term campaigns against the ones you chose not to draft.
Come on now, be nice. Yeah, it was at Young's expense, but it was meant to be a compliment to Schock. If a guy can get a player with peak offense similar to Young, and a much more established all-around game, after you got Young, he did pretty well there, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
I'm actually referring to statements made by Holland and Babcock after his one-year contract were up. Nobody calls him a star though which makes it even more funny that you seem to pretend that Burrows are.
I'm not pretending Burrows is a star, but I'm sure he brings a lot more to the table than Cleary. His position as the "third wheel" on a high scoring line concerned me too - ask Dreakmur - but there was so much more to like. Like any AAA player, there are positives and negatives to both Cleary and Burrows; I just happen to think there are a lot more positives to Burrows, and a lot of it can't be effectively captured in stats.

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11-15-2012, 10:54 AM
  #473
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Come on now, be nice. Yeah, it was at Young's expense, but it was meant to be a compliment to Schock. If a guy can get a player with peak offense similar to Young, and a much more established all-around game, after you got Young, he did pretty well there, right?



I'm not pretending Burrows is a star, but I'm sure he brings a lot more to the table than Cleary. His position as the "third wheel" on a high scoring line concerned me too - ask Dreakmur - but there was so much more to like. Like any AAA player, there are positives and negatives to both Cleary and Burrows; I just happen to think there are a lot more positives to Burrows, and a lot of it can't be effectively captured in stats.
And you believe that a guy like Cleary who is less physical or a highlight reel player is better captured in stats than Burrows?

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11-15-2012, 10:56 AM
  #474
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Derek King. Pretty good collection of wingers taken this round, but he just stands out as the weakest. He brought nothing else to the table, and seemed a lot more reliant on his center than most scoring wingers. A bit of a glorified Hoglund.
Of course King is the weakest, he was second-last taken in the round.

I specifically wanted a speedy goal scorer to skate beside Don Raleigh. If he's dependent on having a good center, that's fine. Look who he's skating with.

It would have been nice if he was a great penalty killer, or could play the hitting game, or could juggle chainsaws. Unfortunately there aren't too many fast, tough, goal-scoring two-way left wingers available in AAA Round 7.

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11-15-2012, 11:06 AM
  #475
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Hogue was never in Plekanec' league defensively. Some have called Plekanec one of the best in the league. I never heard of Hogue being in that category. And offensively, Plek also has two seasons better than Hogue ever did, and if I'm not mistaken, in hogue's three best seasons (adjusted pts 68, 63, 61) he benefitted greatly from Turgeon. Hogue peaked at 4th on his team in scoring despite this, and Plekanec has led his team twice and been 2nd one.
According to Benoit Hogue, Benoit Hogue could have been a lot better than Guy Carbonneau, so doubt it

Seriously though I was really happy with the articles I found on Hogue's intangibles, I think he's a perfect third liner in this setting. Agreed though Plekanec is on a different level defensively. Offensive Plekanec is probably better too, but Hogue's offense should stand up well compared to other third line wingers, I think.

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