I also like when someone says, if Pouliot's last name was Pouliotov, people would be loving it. As the years pass and I read more public opinion here, I believe that to be more and more true.
I don't think many people would be ecstatic about taking a very debatable BPA defenseman at #8, no matter what his nationality.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JTG
I personally think the Pens are playing to the "player economics" of the league. Currently offensive defensemen and top 6 scoring centers are the most valuable commodities in the league. I think the Pens have shown, and are showing, the ability to develop offensive defensemen. No problem in drafting them, developing them, and then having a very valuable asset on our hands. For instance, a good, but not great, offensive defenseman fetched us a guy who was able to score 40 goals and another offensive defenseman.
We have two guys who can score 50 or more, and a winger who can score 40. I don't think our offensive situation is as bad as some think.
Doesn't that run contrary to BPA, though?
If we doubted our ability to develop forwards, I would hope that Shero would take strides to address the problem rather than avoid taking the BPA because of it.
I don't think many people would be ecstatic about taking a very debatable BPA defenseman at #8, no matter what his nationality.
Doesn't that run contrary to BPA, though?
If we doubted our ability to develop forwards, I would hope that Shero would take strides to address the problem rather than avoid taking the BPA because of it.
Well now we're back at this point.
Who is the world is to say DP wasn't Shero's BPA? Because a couple "draft experts" said he wasn't? Because he isn't the guy people liked here?
Every single bit of literature I read had DP going where he went. I think he was, at most, over-drafted by a 2-4 spots, but if Ray and his staff feel that this kid can be a game breaker from the back end, no reason to wait around.
And with how this team plays the game, a defenseman who can retrieve pucks and seamlessly get it up to the forwards is vastly more important than a winger.
Who is the world is to say DP wasn't Shero's BPA? Because a couple "draft experts" said he wasn't? Because he isn't the guy people liked here?
Every single bit of literature I read had DP going where he went. I think he was, at most, over-drafted by a 2-4 spots, but if Ray and his staff feel that this kid can be a game breaker from the back end, no reason to wait around.
And with how this team plays the game, a defenseman who can retrieve pucks and seamlessly get it up to the forwards is vastly more important than a winger.
They may well have thought Pouliot was BPA.
But if - as you suggested - they defer to picking defensemen because they've shown they can develop them (and shy away from selecting a highly-skilled forward because they don't have confidence they can develop him), then that would go beyond BPA, and be a serious problem that would need to get addressed rather than avoided.
But if - as you suggested - they defer to picking defensemen because they've shown they can develop them (and shy away from selecting a highly-skilled forward because they don't have confidence they can develop him), then that would go beyond BPA, and be a serious problem that would need to get addressed rather than avoided.
BPA =/= most skilled.
If I have two guys in front of me, one is a flashy 1st line potential winger who has some question marks, is developing in a league I'm not very familiar with, or currently within an organization I'm not fond of, and is the definition of a boom or bust prospect that more than likely has to switch positions to fit into my team. The other is an offensive defenseman who has top 4 potential (more than likely middle pairing, but has real PPQB potential) but plays for an organization that I'm comfortable with, has the tools and attributes that I look for in defensemen I have successfully developed in the past, and fits what I want to do...the guy with top line potential represents the best potential, but not the best player, in my opinion.
The kid has another year of Junior left after this one. He's on track to match Joe Morrow's 19 year-old season as an 18 year-old. 1 year of development at his age is an eternity. Just some food for thought before the lineup on the bridge gets too long....
What things come down to for me...I think he has the stuff you cannot teach. We can coach him positioning and have him lift weights. That's the easy stuff.
You cannot teach his vision, his passing ability, or the ease he operates with in the offensive zone. Same goes for a guy like Joe Morrow, except with Morrow, it's rumored he has freakish type strength for his size.
If I have two guys in front of me, one is a flashy 1st line potential winger who has some question marks, is developing in a league I'm not very familiar with, or currently within an organization I'm not fond of, and is the definition of a boom or bust prospect that more than likely has to switch positions to fit into my team. The other is an offensive defenseman who has top 4 potential (more than likely middle pairing, but has real PPQB potential) but plays for an organization that I'm comfortable with, has the tools and attributes that I look for in defensemen I have successfully developed in the past, and fits what I want to do...the guy with top line potential represents the best potential, but not the best player, in my opinion.
That's BS, JTG, as far as I'm concerned. There's no excuse for a scouting staff to be "not very familiar" with a well-known junior league - it's their job to be familiar to form a balanced and representative opinion of the prospects available. Prospects also generally have very little say in which junior team they're drafted by, so it seems goofy to hold it against them. And not drafting players because they play a position you already have well-filled is definitely contrary to BPA.
What's more, I'm not sure what makes Grigorenko any more of a boom/bust prospect than Pouliot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sideline
The kid has another year of Junior left after this one. He's on track to match Joe Morrow's 19 year-old season as an 18 year-old. 1 year of development at his age is an eternity. Just some food for thought before the lineup on the bridge gets too long....
Again, for the record, I like Pouliot. I just seriously doubt whether he was the BPA at #8 given what else was available.
I think NHL teams put a decent amount of emphasis on where a kid is developing. Odds are he'll be playing 1 or 2 more years there, at a critical stage in their development.
The Pens went very forward-heavy in 2010, and I'm pretty positive they will do the exact same thing in 2013.
Sure, if they're drafting at a spot where a Dman is by far the BPA, they may take him, but if things are close, I think they will draft almost only forwards, and perhaps a goalie at some point.
I think NHL teams put a decent amount of emphasis on where a kid is developing. Odds are he'll be playing 1 or 2 more years there, at a critical stage in their development.
Yeah I keep thinking how good Solomonson looked in the WJC. Then you here about how he was playing 4 mins a game in SWE and by the time he got to the Spok he was crappy. I remember someone seeing him at a Pens camp and saying that he could hardly skate. Maybe he had some problems off the ice but its a shame to see him not turn into anything after playing so well in the WJC's.
In the end I think with kids this age it's all about how they react to pressure. How do they react when you ask them to skate a little faster, make decisions quicker, against players who are bigger... when you ask them to change some element of their game?
Do they get intimidated or conservative, or do they jump at it? The intimidated guys usually get frustrated and wash out after a while, the conservative guys stay where they're at longer until they are comfortable being more assertive against the level of competition they're at / during call-ups to the next level (not applicable to junior guys but is to ECHL and AHL guys), and the ones who jump at it spend less time at the junior level after being drafted, ultimately. Doesn't mean their game is honed enough, just that it's the assertiveness that probably gives the coaches the feeling they can move the guy up and see what he does. I think that's what happened with Morrow last year. Clearly not ready now by accounts from WBS but he was very assertive and confident last year and he impressed coaches with his shot and so, he got that look in the pre-season. Went back to CHL, was playing above his level / confident, they moved him up to AHL (once he was age eligible I believe).
If they go to the AHL they're tested again and the same pattern evolves. If they get conservative or intimidated they may stay in the AHL for a few years... if they don't let their mistakes frustrate them and they keep asserting themselves / developing in their role, those guys could come up pretty quickly once a call-up is needed.
What I know of them Despres, Morrow and Pouliot all seem like the kind of players that will get about the same amount of time at each level after being drafted. A year more in the CHL (or until they're age-eligible), then an undetermined amount of time in AHL based on physical progression and system needs, then up. IOW, not guys who stay in the CHL a couple extra years to "season". And given that many of our prospects are very talented skaters and whatnot, I think it's the assertiveness that makes the difference there.
Anyone think that DP has a shot at Canadian WJC team? Theres alot of good defensemen to pick but the big ice and his skating might make him a viable option. What do you think?
Anyone think that DP has a shot at Canadian WJC team? Theres alot of good defensemen to pick but the big ice and his skating might make him a viable option. What do you think?
I doubt hell make it ny year. Hes hasnt been invited to any of the camps so far and that makes him a real longshot this year. And next year the returnees will have 1st dibs (they almost always do). And that will leave very few spots open next year as well.
Hes also quite one-dimensional and they already have a better option on that position in Rielly.
There won't be that many returnees next year. Hamilton won't be there, Harrington won't be there, Murray won't be there, Murphy won't be there, Rielly will probably be with Toronto next year, Oullette won't be there either. It's pretty wide open next year.
There won't be that many returnees next year. Hamilton won't be there, Harrington won't be there, Murray won't be there, Murphy won't be there, Rielly will probably be with Toronto next year, Oullette won't be there either. It's pretty wide open next year.
Yep, the Canadians are totally stacked on D this year. And they should just about all be gone next year.
Seems to me that DP if he keeps improving his game like he has is a near lock to make the team, and possibly play a significant role.
Yeah i forgot that teams always rush teir prospects I dunno about Rielly being in toronto tho. But even then there seems to be a lot of players ranked higher by team Canada. Dumba, Ceci have both been in camps/exhibition games. No idea why Pouliot havent even got a chance yet.
Lets hope he has the game of his lifetime in the subway series tonight and forces his way to at least a camp invite for the WJ20
Dumba brings a physical presence which is why he is liked by team canada but he will sacrifice positioning to make the hit. I dont see the hype on Ceci at all he is consistant but not exceptional at anything. I hope Canada does op for defencemen with good skating abilities or else it could turn out like the 2006 Olympics, when they tried to play North American hockey on European ice
Dumba brings a physical presence which is why he is liked by team canada but he will sacrifice positioning to make the hit. I dont see the hype on Ceci at all he is consistant but not exceptional at anything. I hope Canada does op for defencemen with good skating abilities or else it could turn out like the 2006 Olympics, when they tried to play North American hockey on European ice
It does not seem like they are looking to build the team around skating and puck movement.
Team Canada appears committed to playing the standard team building model, which means only 2 or 3 offensive defenseman are likely to play. Can't really complain myself, as I tend to favor the approach.
I dunno about Rielly being in toronto tho. But even then there seems to be a lot of players ranked higher by team Canada. Dumba, Ceci have both been in camps/exhibition games. No idea why Pouliot havent even got a chance yet.
