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Does Anybody Here Remember Vera Lynn? (CBA & Lockout Discussion) XXVIII ‎

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Old
11-15-2012, 02:21 PM
  #526
JMT21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wings View Post
As a fan, how can you not like 2-year ELC's and 5-year contract limits? To me, it means more player movement, young guys getting into real money earlier, and less dead-weight contracts. Come on, every fan here probably has someone on the roster of their favorite team that they wish was a couple of years further along in his contract because he simply didn't pan out, and isn't producing.

It would create more of a competitive environment amongst the players. If you're a rookie who is good enough to stay in the bigs, you get out of your ELC a year earlier. If not, too bad. And old vets should be looking over their shoulder at the young ones coming up. They better keep their skills and conditioning up because they'll need to sign a new contract every 5 years.

I mean isn't this the way it should be? Pay and position based more on performance, and less on potential or prospect?
You wouldn't be referring to Antropov & Hainsey now....... would you???

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11-15-2012, 02:27 PM
  #527
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Originally Posted by DyerMaker66 View Post
So this group of people can't wait to circumvent their own rules (rules that were made to make their businesses stronger) and the other group is supposed to watch them run their businesses into the ground?
Yes, because if they agreed in a back-room not to poach each others players for more money, that would be collusion, so instead they lockout the players and force them to sign an agreement that says that teams cannot poach players. So that it's all legal-like.

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11-15-2012, 02:29 PM
  #528
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Originally Posted by SidTheKid8787 View Post
When i say history i mean before the last CBA was even signed.
I'm talking about the level of mistrust that remains between player and commissioner/owner. It's the whole reason the NHLPA went out and got their own bully.
They had their own bully, Bob Goodenow. He was advised by and reportedly borrowed his strategy from Donald Fehr.

When the players rebelled after losing an entire year, and put in Saskin, he got tossed. When they voted in Kelly he was overthrown buy a cabal of Goodenow loyalists, union hacks and others who feared losing their influence, money and power.

They were advised by one Donald Fehr who became the next leader. There is supposedly an agreement to install his brother as the next leader. So this same group of old style belligerent union hardliners will be in control of the PA for the foreseeable future.

The structure of the union has been changed so that is virtually impossible to have another coup which is just as well but which has also concentrated almost all power in to the hands of the executive director with few paths for those who disagree to exert influence.

Bettman was bullied early on by the PA to the detriment of the league overall. He has to stand up to them and if he wasn't there, another commissioner would have to do the same. He is just a convenient target for the PA.

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11-15-2012, 02:34 PM
  #529
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Originally Posted by Crows View Post
Ray Ferraro saying he knows lots of players and there is a big under current of the pa saying " we gotta sign this and play now"
I'm really hoping this is the case.

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11-15-2012, 02:34 PM
  #530
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These days the flood of tweets and articles even when nothing is happening just keeps me plugged in the entire time and more frustrated.
Welcome to the downside of social media.

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11-15-2012, 02:37 PM
  #531
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepty View Post
They had their own bully, Bob Goodenow. He was advised by and reportedly borrowed his strategy from Donald Fehr.

When the players rebelled after losing an entire year, and put in Saskin, he got tossed. When they voted in Kelly he was overthrown buy a cabal of Goodenow loyalists, union hacks and others who feared losing their influence, money and power.

They were advised by one Donald Fehr who became the next leader. There is supposedly an agreement to install his brother as the next leader. So this same group of old style belligerent union hardliners will be in control of the PA for the foreseeable future.

The structure of the union has been changed so that is virtually impossible to have another coup which is just as well but which has also concentrated almost all power in to the hands of the executive director with few paths for those who disagree to exert influence.

Bettman was bullied early on by the PA to the detriment of the league overall. He has to stand up to them and if he wasn't there, another commissioner would have to do the same. He is just a convenient target for the PA.
Honest question - how was Bettman bullied by the PA? I haven't paid attention to the business aspect of the game until more recently and haven't read up on what's happened a decade or so back. I have never that kind of statement before.

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11-15-2012, 02:37 PM
  #532
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crows
Ray Ferraro saying he knows lots of players and there is a big under current of the pa saying " we gotta sign this and play now"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Epoch View Post
I'm really hoping this is the case.
The player that I would talk to before my beer league games has been in Europe for a couple of weeks, but this sentiment was just starting to gain steam before he left...

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11-15-2012, 02:38 PM
  #533
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SidTheKid8787 View Post
When i say history i mean before the last CBA was even signed.
I'm talking about the level of mistrust that remains between player and commissioner/owner. It's the whole reason the NHLPA went out and got their own bully.
Yeah!! - because NHLPA members were being sooo mistreated...

mistrust? give me that much money for 9 months of "work" and I don't need to trust you!

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Old
11-15-2012, 02:39 PM
  #534
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Anyone seen if there's been discussions about whether to keep a year on the contracts or contracts will lose a year?

Just looking at 2014, a lot of good value contracts/good players becoming UFAs seems like owners would probably be hearing it from their GMs to do their best to avoid this.

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11-15-2012, 02:39 PM
  #535
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Originally Posted by bozak911 View Post
The player that I would talk to before my beer league games has been in Europe for a couple of weeks, but this sentiment was just starting to gain steam before he left...
When did he leave? I wonder how much momentum is has gained.

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11-15-2012, 02:40 PM
  #536
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I'm really hoping this is the case.
So do I - but they have to speak and stand up or else one or more seasons are lost because of their union's foolish leadership.

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11-15-2012, 02:40 PM
  #537
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liberation View Post
Anyone seen if there's been discussions about whether to keep a year on the contracts or contracts will lose a year?

Just looking at 2014, a lot of good value contracts/good players becoming UFAs seems like owners would probably be hearing it from their GMs to do their best to avoid this.
Why? If there are so many that hit UFA, then the price should potentially come down for the higher end guys. Why sign A when I can just go for B. Unless you get a Miami Heat situation...

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Old
11-15-2012, 02:43 PM
  #538
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Originally Posted by c4fn8d View Post
Yes, because if they agreed in a back-room not to poach each others players for more money, that would be collusion, so instead they lockout the players and force them to sign an agreement that says that teams cannot poach players. So that it's all legal-like.
It'd be very easy for me to say that I didn't sign P.K. Subban to an offer sheet because I:

A) "didn't feel it was the right move for our club"
B) "didn't feel he was what our team needed"
C) "felt as though 'player X' was a better option"

There are countless ways a team can spin not going after the BPA (I'm not saying he is; he was just the first RFA that a saw listed).

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Old
11-15-2012, 02:44 PM
  #539
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Originally Posted by HockeyCrazed101 View Post
Honest question - how was Bettman bullied by the PA? I haven't paid attention to the business aspect of the game until more recently and haven't read up on what's happened a decade or so back. I have never that kind of statement before.
I don't think it was necessarily just Bettman being bullied, but the entire Board of Governors.

Fehr put off negotiations in the summer of 2011 to “get up to speed”. Someone can correct me if I am wrong, but hadn’t he already been ExecDir for the PA for 8 months at that point? Shortly after that, the PA turned down the re-alignment plan that Bettman, himself, put together for the BoG. The BoG approved, but not unanimously. IIRC here as well, it passed with 26 out of 29 BoGs approving.

The kick in the nuts for me was when Nick Schultz, the union rep for the Wild at the time, parroted the Fehr line about needing more “proof” this would benefit the players. Uhm, wut? We were heading into a season where the first road game played in the CENTRAL time zone (same time zone as MSP) was in Winnipeg, a member of the SE Division on December 15th…

Maybe that is considered bullying, but really, just dickish moves by the PA.

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Old
11-15-2012, 02:45 PM
  #540
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@RenLavoieRDS The NBA said on Nov. 14 last year the season was in danger. Twelve days later, a deal was done.

When was the season first signalled as in danger?

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Old
11-15-2012, 02:47 PM
  #541
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http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=409553

Asked on Thursday if the labour dispute had put the entire year in jeopardy, deputy commissioner Bill Daly replied "I hope not."

"But I'm more discouraged now than I have been at any point in the process," Daly added.

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Old
11-15-2012, 02:48 PM
  #542
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I think they get a deal done to save some of the season. Neither sides can afford another lockout. It's really that simple.

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Old
11-15-2012, 02:50 PM
  #543
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DyerMaker66 View Post
It'd be very easy for me to say that I didn't sign P.K. Subban to an offer sheet because I:

A) "didn't feel it was the right move for our club"
B) "didn't feel he was what our team needed"
C) "felt as though 'player X' was a better option"

There are countless ways a team can spin not going after the BPA (I'm not saying he is; he was just the first RFA that a saw listed).
I'm more specifically talking about the whole notion that the contract limits have to be put in place to protect owners from other owners. We already know that owners already have unwritten rules in place about poaching. 10 years until a player can get to free agency means a majority of players will never make it to FA. I think that the average career is 7 or 8 years in the NHL. 5 years ELC, with no arbitration rights, 5 year maximum contract lengths. I believe these provisions which have been there from day 1 have been a huge sticking point for the PA. If the owners threw all of these ludicrous demands out the window, we would see movement from the players.

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11-15-2012, 02:51 PM
  #544
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When did he leave? I wonder how much momentum is has gained.
Beginning of November... The "off the record" conversation he was having with a bunch of us was in late October.

I am hoping to figure out a way to run into a guy like Matt Cullen without it being to "stalkerish". It is the guys like him that are really getting dicked over by this work stoppage. A small DM conversation on twitter with Justin Falk (not Faulk) also proved to me that tweeners like him are very worried about their futures. That DM conversation happened two days before this article on PHT:
http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/2...a-season-here/

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11-15-2012, 02:52 PM
  #545
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So they have about a week to get a deal done before another two weeks of the schedule are cancelled.

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Old
11-15-2012, 02:56 PM
  #546
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Originally Posted by c4fn8d View Post
I'm more specifically talking about the whole notion that the contract limits have to be put in place to protect owners from other owners. We already know that owners already have unwritten rules in place about poaching. 10 years until a player can get to free agency means a majority of players will never make it to FA. I think that the average career is 7 or 8 years in the NHL. 5 years ELC, with no arbitration rights, 5 year maximum contract lengths. I believe these provisions which have been there from day 1 have been a huge sticking point for the PA. If the owners threw all of these ludicrous demands out the window, we would see movement from the players.
And if Fehr would get off of de-linked salary, we would see movement from the owners.

There's your deal. Each side gives to get. Players will give more, but that's how it goes when you don't have the money. Then of course the owners will try to find any way possible to spend as much money as they can, as they do every summer, with new record dollar amounts every year, and the players will end up with another boatload of money.

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Old
11-15-2012, 02:58 PM
  #547
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Quote:
Originally Posted by c4fn8d View Post
I'm more specifically talking about the whole notion that the contract limits have to be put in place to protect owners from other owners. We already know that owners already have unwritten rules in place about poaching. 10 years until a player can get to free agency means a majority of players will never make it to FA. I think that the average career is 7 or 8 years in the NHL. 5 years ELC, with no arbitration rights, 5 year maximum contract lengths. I believe these provisions which have been there from day 1 have been a huge sticking point for the PA. If the owners threw all of these ludicrous demands out the window, we would see movement from the players.
While I agree with you that many of the demands are harsh, I disagree that we would see movement from the players. They really haven't shown any movement that I can see. The notion that they're still expecting their full share of revenue for a full season while playing only a partial season is a reasonable testament to that. Of course we never/rarely seen any absolutely truthful renditions of what is going on in terms of offers as both sides are busily playing PR mind games but from all reports the players are largely delusional.

Average career length in NHL is 4.5 years btw.

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Old
11-15-2012, 02:59 PM
  #548
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Originally Posted by HeliDevil View Post
I think they get a deal done to save some of the season. Neither sides can afford another lockout. It's really that simple.
This is how I see it. The NHL will cease to exist if this year gets cancelled.

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11-15-2012, 03:00 PM
  #549
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Originally Posted by KingsFan7824 View Post
And if Fehr would get off of de-linked salary, we would see movement from the owners.

There's your deal. Each side gives to get. Players will give more, but that's how it goes when you don't have the money. Then of course the owners will try to find any way possible to spend as much money as they can, as they do every summer, with new record dollar amounts every year, and the players will end up with another boatload of money.
So far it's been all give from the PA and no give from the NHL. When you negotiate with your boss do you start negotiations with a pay decrease and then hope to only make the decrease a smaller percent than initially offered? Does that make any sense to you?

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11-15-2012, 03:02 PM
  #550
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This is how I see it. The NHL will cease to exist if this year gets cancelled.
Or it will go back to being an original 6 league... + Canadian teams.

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