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Round 2 Voting Results (HOH Top Goaltenders)

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Old
11-15-2012, 06:52 AM
  #126
MadArcand
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I'm really surprised by Gardiner here.

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11-15-2012, 08:15 AM
  #127
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I've been reading most of the discussion, and I've been agreeing with the order so far (I do have some preferences, like Hasek over Roy, but the order is solid). I like the placement of George Vezina, but Charlie Gardiner over both Broda and Durnan is the first eye-popping results for me. I can see Gardiner over Parent, but over Benedict and those those two is hard to swallow. I'll need to re-read the discussion of round 3 to understand this one!

*Keep up the good work everyone*

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11-15-2012, 08:17 AM
  #128
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No surprise to see Brimsek at the top here, bit of a surprise to see Durnan not get selected this time around. Oh well, next time I guess.

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11-15-2012, 08:20 AM
  #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MXD View Post
When a good claim can be made that a goalie needed the playoffs to be a Top-3 goaltender in two distinct eras, that does not make him a Top-12 goaltender.
I agree.

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On the other hand, Durnan being out due to the era he played in pose a serious problem. Looks like he actually lost "points" for actually playing hockey.
Durnan isn't out due to era alone. As I said last night in the voting thread, he played only 5 meaningful seasons in the NHL. It was not convincingly shown that he was ahead of Brimsek for any more than a year or two of that. When he left, it wasn't due to external circumstance but personal choice. What are we to do with a guy who has 5 seasons and a heavily team-influenced portfolio? Vote him in over guys who played longer, against tougher competition, and were regarded as decisively the best of their era?

The only way I could see Durnan making it here would be to displace Gardiner, who might have had a more critical examination if we weren't so tied up with the 5 other pre-1950s candidates. The evidence presented for Gardiner was very strong, but I'd listen if someone can show we made a mistake with him.


Last edited by tarheelhockey: 11-15-2012 at 08:33 AM.
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Old
11-15-2012, 08:29 AM
  #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Last round was an absolute joke. Revisionism at its best. Rather obvious who was out to shaft Broda and Durnan. 5 and 4 not rates, pathetic.
This isn't the first round where people have made claims that others voted for political reasons.

I asked people to trust others' motives then, and I'm asking you to trust others' motives now.

This sort of thing needs to stop.

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11-15-2012, 08:44 AM
  #131
tarheelhockey
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One thing that Durnan and Broda had going for them... top-3 votes.

Brimsek 19
Gardiner 12
Durnan 9
Broda 8
Benedict 7
Vezina 6

Brimsek was the only thing close to a consensus top-3 pick here, and a substantial minority favored Durnan and Broda. But if you expand it to top-4...

Brimsek 20
Vezina 14
Gardiner 13
Durnan 11
Broda 10
Benedict 9

The top-3 pull away and the gap for 4th becomes razor-thin. Not that the voting patterns really mean much, but I find them interesting and revealing. Benedict had one of the most evenly distributed records I can remember from either top-X project, and Durnan/Broda were both highly polarized. In both cases the vote distribution seems to capture the mood of the board.

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11-15-2012, 08:59 AM
  #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
I've been reading most of the discussion, and I've been agreeing with the order so far (I do have some preferences, like Hasek over Roy, but the order is solid). I like the placement of George Vezina, but Charlie Gardiner over both Broda and Durnan is the first eye-popping results for me. I can see Gardiner over Parent, but over Benedict and those those two is hard to swallow. I'll need to re-read the discussion of round 3 to understand this one!

*Keep up the good work everyone*
As I see it, Gardiner was almost universally considered the best goalie in the world for 4-5 years, which nobody below him can say. (Durnan and Benedict were arguably the best goalies for some time, but there were other guys who had a case too). The case against Gardiner is lack of a resume outside of those 5 years (he was good in 1928-29, probably not great). But then Durnan basically has the 2 World War II years as the only NHL-calibre goalie in the league and 5 years afterwards, so he doesn't win on longevity either.

Based on the voting, it looks like Broda and Durnan all well situated to go next round.

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11-15-2012, 09:39 AM
  #133
Mike Farkas
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I'm surprised Broda didn't sneak in there really. Not as surprised on Durnan, all things considered. But I'm surprised the group took Benedict over Broda. I didn't get the impression that Benedict was up in the Vezina or Gardiner stratosphere...I think all the talk about the 40's goalies pushed two of them off the cliff and allowed the guy with the best stats to slide up by default. I'm not overly excited about how that vote turned out to be honest, but as someone that also struggled with it, I can understand it to a point...

With the inclusion of Benedict, what does it say about Percy Lesueur and Hugh Lehman? How far apart are they from him? Honest question, I don't know the answer to. I thought Lehman was the Vezina of the West, so to speak?

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11-15-2012, 09:43 AM
  #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
I'm surprised Broda didn't sneak in there really. Not as surprised on Durnan, all things considered. But I'm surprised the group took Benedict over Broda. I didn't get the impression that Benedict was up in the Vezina or Gardiner stratosphere...I think all the talk about the 40's goalies pushed two of them off the cliff and allowed the guy with the best stats to slide up by default. I'm not overly excited about how that vote turned out to be honest, but as someone that also struggled with it, I can understand it to a point...
I originally had Broda over Benedict, but flipped them this round (ended up voting Benedict 4th and Broda 5th). I took comments about the talent pool during the Great Depression and World War 2 to heart. And while I think Broda and Benedict were both better in the playoffs than the regular season, I did decide that Benedict was more accomplished in the regular season.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post

With the inclusion of Benedict, what does it say about Percy Lesueur and Hugh Lehman? How far apart are they from him? Honest question, I don't know the answer to. I thought Lehman was the Vezina of the West, so to speak?
Lesueur was from an earlier and probably weaker generation; definitely a step down, hard to say how much. The MacLean's article (which I still haven't fully digested) definitely makes him look good though.

I actually think Lehman was Vezina and Benedict's equal in the regular season, but he had an Esposito-like way of blowing things in the finals. So it makes sense that he's behind them. Count me among those who will consider voting for Lehman the instant he's available though.


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Old
11-15-2012, 10:02 AM
  #135
tarheelhockey
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I wasn't completely sold on Benedict's peak, but his success across a wide variety of team and league situations is noteworthy. I discount his Ottawa dynasty years due to obvious team factors, but his Montreal years validate his individual ability. Then the compilation aspect kicks in, which is a weak spot for most of the candidates here.

I agree that the lengthy 40s debate may have sidelined other important discussions. This is exactly the sort of situation that made it wise to reduce the number of inductees per round.

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11-15-2012, 10:04 AM
  #136
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I'm still trying to figure out how anyone could plausibly vote Broda first that round.

We'll leave it at my list looked very, very different from that one.

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11-15-2012, 11:59 AM
  #137
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This round sure shows the diversity of opinions when it comes to goalies. Every goalie received votes in at least 7 of 9 positions, and 3 of them received votes in all positions.

I was a little surprised to see so much agreement in Round 1, to be honest.

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11-15-2012, 12:06 PM
  #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Rather obvious who was out to shaft Broda and Durnan. 5 and 4 not rates, pathetic.
Yes, I found it interesting that Broda was left off of the same amount of ballots in Round 3 as he was in Round 2. However, I don't believe it is a disservice to them unless they don't place high in Round 4. Placing directly behind Clint Benedict isn't a crime.

Gardiner got more support at second and third than I had anticipated.

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Old
11-15-2012, 12:13 PM
  #139
TheDevilMadeMe
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Broda was definitely the most controversial candidate this round with 8 voters having him top 3, 6 having him 4th or 5th, nobody having him 6th or 7th, and 9 voters having him 8th or lower.

4 votes for 1st and 5 for "not top 8"

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11-15-2012, 12:23 PM
  #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Broda was definitely the most controversial candidate this round with 8 voters having him top 3, 6 having him 4th or 5th, nobody having him 6th or 7th, and 9 voters having him 8th or lower.

4 votes for 1st and 5 for "not top 8"
I think that's good though - even though as you said, the polarized opinions weren't as present in the prior rounds. We're still high enough on the list that we need some voices to nitpick about blemishes on the résumés.

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11-15-2012, 01:41 PM
  #141
tarheelhockey
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I'm going to take a shot in the dark and guess that the extremes of Broda's voting correlate to the number of voters who do/don't consider the playoffs to be of much more importance than the regular season when ranking goalies.

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Old
11-15-2012, 03:19 PM
  #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Broda was definitely the most controversial candidate this round with 8 voters having him top 3, 6 having him 4th or 5th, nobody having him 6th or 7th, and 9 voters having him 8th or lower.

4 votes for 1st and 5 for "not top 8"
Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
I think that's good though - even though as you said, the polarized opinions weren't as present in the prior rounds. We're still high enough on the list that we need some voices to nitpick about blemishes on the résumés.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
I'm going to take a shot in the dark and guess that the extremes of Broda's voting correlate to the number of voters who do/don't consider the playoffs to be of much more importance than the regular season when ranking goalies.
I had Broda out in Vote 3.
However, I also had him in in Vote 2.

Some "good" case was made about Benedict (and it's not like somebody "oversold" Benedict either) -- at least, that he was better than Broda. Pondering the case of Esposito made me realize that he's really close to Parent. And I still think Espo is slightly superior to Broda -- Broda has playoff excellence, but if we're to factor in Bill Durnan playing behind a great team -- while not really considering the pre-WWII Bruins were actually a better team, if I'm judging by the votes received by Brimsek -- then Broda playing behind a team just as good (and probably even better, look at that ridiculous center depth...) has to be considered as well.

Now, add in the fact that, for his career as a whole, Espo could be considered the 3rd best goalie in the NHL (ambivalent on Parent, but they're close, so I make it 3rd, but it could really be 2nd)... in a 16-team league.

Broda hovered between 3rd and 4th for his career... in a 6-to-7 team league... when, for one "part" of his career, Broda was, as a whole, outplayed by Dave Kerr, a good candidate for the 30-50 range. Actually, the more I think about it, I'm probably being kind to Broda, as I SUPPOSE I'm amongst the very few who has Dave Kerr in the Top-40. And regardless of what somebody might say about it, I still think Broda was outplayed by Chuck Rayner, according to all I could've read on the subject (and I probably underrated Rayner at first, but that's a story for another time).

My unranked goalie in vote 2 was Tretiak. I'd still rank him below Broda. It's just that ALL NEWCOMERS last in vote 3 were superior to Broda, except for Bower.

So, my initial mistake was having Benedict and Parent below Broda in round 2. I'd still end up ranking Broda in vote 2 (8th).

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11-15-2012, 05:39 PM
  #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
I'm surprised Broda didn't sneak in there really. Not as surprised on Durnan, all things considered. But I'm surprised the group took Benedict over Broda. I didn't get the impression that Benedict was up in the Vezina or Gardiner stratosphere...I think all the talk about the 40's goalies pushed two of them off the cliff and allowed the guy with the best stats to slide up by default. I'm not overly excited about how that vote turned out to be honest, but as someone that also struggled with it, I can understand it to a point...

With the inclusion of Benedict, what does it say about Percy Lesueur and Hugh Lehman? How far apart are they from him? Honest question, I don't know the answer to. I thought Lehman was the Vezina of the West, so to speak?
I'm a little bit more than surprised neither Durnan or Broda got in.

I thought it was too early for the way-back-when guys, but I guess I'm in the minority there.

Goalie is by far the hardest position to judge. We are quickly see that is case. At this point its really difficult to say anyone is really out-of-the-box with their votes.

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Old
11-15-2012, 05:45 PM
  #144
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Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
With the inclusion of Benedict, what does it say about Percy Lesueur and Hugh Lehman? How far apart are they from him? Honest question, I don't know the answer to. I thought Lehman was the Vezina of the West, so to speak?
Honestly, I would vote Lehman #1 this round if he was eligible for voting. There is really no point for him to be substantively different than Esposito and I don't for a moment see the argument for him to be behind Durnan.

But clearly I have a long way to go explaining Lehman's greatness.

Personally, I'm still not sold that Durnan, Broda and Brimsek were anything more than the best of an average lot. I also don't see why Rayner is so far removed from them.

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11-27-2012, 09:16 PM
  #145
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Here are the results of vote 3. There were 24 out of a possible 27 voters this round

PlayerTotal1st2nd3rd4th5th6th7th8thN/R
Turk Broda1451230131400
Bill Durnan141573421110
Ed Belfour110353411223
Tony Esposito102316222350
Bernie Parent97032536410
Roy Worters86033335214
Johnny Bower76004272162
Jiri Holecek74123312336
Tiny Thompson190000213216
Billy Smith140000031317

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11-27-2012, 09:25 PM
  #146
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Considering the minuscule gap between Durnan and Broda, wouldn't have it been wiser to wait for the three missing votes?

And is there a reason for stopping at 24 out of 27, as opposed to, say 23?

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11-27-2012, 09:31 PM
  #147
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Considering the minuscule gap between Durnan and Broda, wouldn't have it been wiser to wait for the three missing votes?

And is there a reason for stopping at 24 out of 27, as opposed to, say 23?
He set the deadline, and PMed all eligible voters of that deadline.

I presume that that's the reason (and I also think that 24/27 is fine, and that waiting longer may not have gotten the 3 additional votes anyhow).

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11-27-2012, 09:32 PM
  #148
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Considering the minuscule gap between Durnan and Broda, wouldn't have it been wiser to wait for the three missing votes?
One of the voters is VanIslander who announced he was dropping out of the process. He's still technically a voter if he ends up finding the time and wants to come back, so he's included in the 27. Another voter hasn't voted in a single Round 2 vote and hasn't signed into hfboards in weeks. So it's really 24/25 active voters

Quote:
And is there a reason for stopping at 24 out of 27, as opposed to 23?
Yes, because the 24th voter sent me a PM and told me he'd send in his votes shortly. So I waited for him.

Deadline was 3.5 hours ago...


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11-27-2012, 09:35 PM
  #149
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He set the deadline, and PMed all eligible voters of that deadline.

I presume that that's the reason (and I also think that 24/27 is fine, and that waiting longer may not have gotten the 3 additional votes anyhow).
Yeah, I noticed TDMM postponed the deadline for obvious reasons -- that was mentionned in the thread.

But that "postponement" was indefinite (from what I noticed). And 24 out of 27 is indeed a fine number. The thing is, only one vote (more likely two, but one is a possibility) could change the ranking of the five goalies that could end up being in the Top-4.

See message below

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11-27-2012, 09:36 PM
  #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
One of the voters is VanIslander who announced he was dropping out of the process. He's still technically a voter if he ends up finding the time and wants to come back, so he's included in the 27. Another voter hasn't voted in a single Round 2 vote and hasn't signed into hfboards in weeks. So it's really 24/25 active voters



Yes, because the 24th voter sent me a PM and told me he'd send in his votes shortly. So I waited for him.

Deadline was 3.5 hours ago...
I stand corrected (but I did miss the part where VanI said he dropped).

Fine work

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