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AAA 2012 Draft

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Old
11-15-2012, 12:19 PM
  #476
BudsBuster
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Burrows.... Is he Crying?

http://youtu.be/unNPFNXNsJ0

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Old
11-15-2012, 12:22 PM
  #477
seventieslord
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
And you believe that a guy like Cleary who is less physical or a highlight reel player is better captured in stats than Burrows?
Yes. Since I believe Cleary is fairly well described by his offensive numbers (with everything else being secondary to that), and Burrows is anything but that. Burrows' offense and PK ability are captured in numbers and there are even stats for hits and fights. But you can't really measure agitation and even strength defense, cycling and forechecking are difficult to capture as well.

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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
Of course King is the weakest, he was second-last taken in the round.
we're down in the 1300s now. this would make sense in the ATD, where, for the first half at least, the players at the start of the round are typically clearly better than the players at the end of the round. Down here, judgments vary so greatly that it's easily possible for me to like the entire 21st round better than the entire 12th, for example.

Though I do agree that, year after year,the lists make more and more sense.

FWIW, if all the best wingers got taken, and then you got King, who was then the best by elimination, yet still weaker than the others, I'd never critique that; I'd commend you for getting the best player you could. I just don't think that is what happened.

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I specifically wanted a speedy goal scorer to skate beside Don Raleigh. If he's dependent on having a good center, that's fine. Look who he's skating with.
Two things:

1) he was not speedy; all scouting reports say he was not a good skater. (they all say he is a good finisher who needs someone to get him the puck)

2) this is an old ATD/MLD argument. Let's face facts. Not being dependent on your center/someone to get you the puck is much better than being dependent.

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It would have been nice if he was a great penalty killer, or could play the hitting game, or could juggle chainsaws. Unfortunately there aren't too many fast, tough, goal-scoring two-way left wingers available in AAA Round 7.
indeed. But there were better one dimensional scorers out there, IMO. Fast ones, too.

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Old
11-15-2012, 12:25 PM
  #478
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bring Back Scuderi View Post
According to Benoit Hogue, Benoit Hogue could have been a lot better than Guy Carbonneau, so doubt it

Seriously though I was really happy with the articles I found on Hogue's intangibles, I think he's a perfect third liner in this setting. Agreed though Plekanec is on a different level defensively. Offensive Plekanec is probably better too, but Hogue's offense should stand up well compared to other third line wingers, I think.
Hogue does make up ground with longevity.

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Originally Posted by BudsBuster View Post
Burrows.... Is he Crying?

http://youtu.be/unNPFNXNsJ0
I'm gonna say no.

and this is a lot different from what you were emailing me, saying he regularly cries after fights.

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Old
11-15-2012, 12:25 PM
  #479
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The St.John's Monsters select Head Coach Ron Wilson



Wilson has the most career NHL wins of any available coach at 648 and is a 2 time head coach for the U.S. men's Olympic team.

Next has been pmed.

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Old
11-15-2012, 12:31 PM
  #480
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Quote:
I'm gonna say no.

and this is a lot different from what you were emailing me, saying he regularly cries after fights.
I just think he is a bit of a P*ssy. But that is just me. And it seemed like he was crying or about to cry in that video.

He is an aggitator. but also a winer.


Last edited by seventieslord: 11-15-2012 at 12:53 PM. Reason: fixed your quote for you.
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Old
11-15-2012, 12:53 PM
  #481
seventieslord
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BudsBuster View Post
I just think he is a bit of a P*ssy. But that is just me. And it seemed like he was crying or about to cry in that video.

He is an aggitator. but also a winer.
Gilmour, Gretzky and Lemieux were notorious whiners too.

and I don't know how whether or not Burrows was about to cry in that video has any bearing on his value as a player.

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11-15-2012, 12:55 PM
  #482
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I'll take RW, Ken Schinkel


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Old
11-15-2012, 01:01 PM
  #483
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Yes. Since I believe Cleary is fairly well described by his offensive numbers (with everything else being secondary to that), and Burrows is anything but that. Burrows' offense and PK ability are captured in numbers and there are even stats for hits and fights. But you can't really measure agitation and even strength defense, cycling and forechecking are difficult to capture as well.
Its funny that you want us to view Burrows as a defensive player while Cleary should be viewed as defensive player. Now enlighten us, what makes Cleary worse defensively than Burrows? What is your evidence of Cleary being worse than Burrows when it comes to forechecking?

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11-15-2012, 01:15 PM
  #484
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Fort Saskatchewan selects LW Adam Brown

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Old
11-15-2012, 01:17 PM
  #485
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I'll take RW, Ken Schinkel


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Great pick, that's who I wanted for my third line.

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Old
11-15-2012, 01:20 PM
  #486
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Gilmour, Gretzky and Lemieux were notorious whiners too.

and I don't know how whether or not Burrows was about to cry in that video has any bearing on his value as a player.
Difference being Gilmour, Gretzky and Lemieux didnt piss off referees to such a degree that they started to actually become a third opponent out there.

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Old
11-15-2012, 01:22 PM
  #487
seventieslord
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
Its funny that you want us to view Burrows as a defensive player while Cleary should be viewed as defensive player. Now enlighten us, what makes Cleary worse defensively than Burrows? What is your evidence of Cleary being worse than Burrows when it comes to forechecking?
- What I've seen when watching them
- What I've read in numerous scouting reports
- What I perceive to be the widespread perceptions of each player.

Also, I'm pretty skeptical of any player whose career is on the skids, comes to Detroit and thrives. That organization has proved it can make anyone look good. Bertuzzi was seen as a washed up, useless bum before he came to Detroit, for example.

Don't take that as a slight on one of your guys. Take it as a compliement to the entire franchise.

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Fort Saskatchewan selects LW Adam Brown
Good one.

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Old
11-15-2012, 01:45 PM
  #488
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
- What I've seen when watching them
- What I've read in numerous scouting reports
- What I perceive to be the widespread perceptions of each player.

Also, I'm pretty skeptical of any player whose career is on the skids, comes to Detroit and thrives. That organization has proved it can make anyone look good. Bertuzzi was seen as a washed up, useless bum before he came to Detroit, for example.

Don't take that as a slight on one of your guys. Take it as a compliement to the entire franchise.
So basically you are saying we should discredit Cleary for having a good surrounding but credit Burrows for the exact same thing?

There were an article not to long ago about Sedin being the best in league at increasing his teammates shot quality. Sedin boosted Burrows shot quality with almost 7%.

and finally here we have the history of Sedins linemates.

http://www.soyoureanexpert.com/2012/...so-bad_17.html

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11-15-2012, 01:47 PM
  #489
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
Difference being Gilmour, Gretzky and Lemieux didnt piss off referees to such a degree that they started to actually become a third opponent out there.
It's only Auger. He's hardly the paragon of integrity.

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Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
Its funny that you want us to view Burrows as a defensive player while Cleary should be viewed as defensive player. Now enlighten us, what makes Cleary worse defensively than Burrows?
Before Burrows played with the Sedins, him and Kesler made up one of the top checking lines in the league and there wasn't much separating him and Kesler defensively (I don't mean this as a slight on Cleary, I don't have a problem with the pick).

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Old
11-15-2012, 01:49 PM
  #490
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Hmm, thought about picking Bill Collins, but wasn't sure I knew enough about how good he was. I'm having a hard time distinguishing these type of forwards from the 70's and early 80's...I seemingly put three in a hat and draw one out...sometimes laurels, sometimes darts...

Re: Dan Cleary. Highly touted prospect from the Maritimes, moved to Ontario and was a high pick in the OHL draft. Outstanding junior player with Belleville, very very good. By many accounts, had a dominant U18 WJC campaign in 1995 with Canada. Was invited to three U20 WJCs evaluation camps and was a late cut from all three...then was traded not long after testing the icy waters of NHL hockey. May have derailed him a bit, probably lost a lot of confidence.

Just wasn't quite good enough offensively to really make an impact in the NHL. Kept sliding down depth charts, got bought out by the Oilers, wasn't qualified by the Coyotes on a low-risk deal, wasn't signed by Detroit until he got the job from a training camp invite even...

Cleary started to specialize his game more to stay in the league. Becoming a harder working, more defensive-minded forward. Still has good offensive instincts. Not an obscene amount of skill or speed, but finds open space very well. Gets to the front of the net and can do alright for himself there. Good hand-eye, really good shot accuracy, even if it's not over powering. He can play in the top-six in a pinch, but isn't really cut out to play in that role full time. Also, isn't an elite defensive player, so he's not really a shutdown winger either. Not your first offensive guy, not your first defensive guy, not a very physical player, not really a specialist at anything. He can finish plays from a good playmaker (played with Modano and Bertuzzi a lot in 2011). Just kind of a jack of all trades, master of none type of player. Won't hurt you in any area, but you could probably replace him without losing sleep too. Quality, versatile roster player.

As for Burrows, he's a good defensive conscience and glue guy (as it's termed here) for the Sedin's who aren't very good at defense in my opinion and rarely have to be. Burrows is a good forechecker despite his iffy skating. Not a very natural skater, but has a good motor and he's strong, so he can get to where he's going, but it's not beautiful. I'm not sure that Burrows faces any sort of elite offensive players given how often I know the Sedin's start in the offensive zone against another team's top defensive players. He does play on the PK and really just hassles people at the point. He has good sense on when to attack too - bouncing pucks, awkward passes and other tough spots. Works well on the forecheck in that sense too, just very annoying to play against. He's not a monster physically like you might expect, but he finishes his checks and does better along the boards as opposed to putting people through them. He's learned a lot offensively from the Sedin's, and given how long they've looked for a complement to those two, the fact that Burrows has stuck with them and a contract that suggests he will stick with them is a compliment to him (I think a couple years ago he was with Kesler and Raymond or Hansen? someone fast). He works hard and can finish well, has underrated hands I think.

Kind of strange career arcs...Cleary, highly touted and skilled as a 15/16 year old, failed to meet expectations and then had a revival of sorts...Burrows, a nobody with Shawinigan, undrafted, went to the ECHL, hung around a little bit and got a break when his coach in Baton Rogue passed off his name to someone in Vancouver...

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Old
11-15-2012, 02:03 PM
  #491
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hedberg View Post
Before Burrows played with the Sedins, him and Kesler made up one of the top checking lines in the league and there wasn't much separating him and Kesler defensively (I don't mean this as a slight on Cleary, I don't have a problem with the pick).
Yes but look at PK minute/game and you see a pretty telling story about who of them actually were/are best. Burrows has gone from 2nd-5th while Kesler is still the top-PKer. Just avoid confusion, Im not saying Burrows is bad or even average defensively, he's just not that good as Seventies hyperbole would suggest.

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11-15-2012, 02:04 PM
  #492
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Hogue was never in Plekanec' league defensively. Some have called Plekanec one of the best in the league.
This I would call pure Montreal media bias and conjuration. I don't know in which parallel universe Plekanec even comes close to being one of the best in the league defensively, but it's not this one. Maybe I should ask Bryzgalov.

Quote:
I never heard of Hogue being in that category. And offensively, Plek also has two seasons better than Hogue ever did, and if I'm not mistaken, in hogue's three best seasons (adjusted pts 68, 63, 61) he benefitted greatly from Turgeon. Hogue peaked at 4th on his team in scoring despite this, and Plekanec has led his team twice and been 2nd one.
Of course, Plekanec massively benefited from being the least bad forward on a dreadful team full of extremely crappy forwards for years.

Quote:
So statistically, Burrows is not the same kind of animal, as he has outscored his linemates in goals four years running now. Not that I'm not aware they have had a positive effect on his totals, of course.
I could stick Nash on a line with Oates and Francis, have him score more goals than either of them and then proclaim this as some sort of proof that he's a supreme scorer, if that logic is to be followed.

Of course a shoot-biased third wheel will outscore two playmakers he plays with. Doesn't prove anything. ******** did the same on a line with Sedins.


Last edited by seventieslord: 11-15-2012 at 02:34 PM. Reason: undrafted
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Old
11-15-2012, 02:17 PM
  #493
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did Plekanec not get to a conference finals on a supposed terrible team? I know (the goalie) helped. But he was very good and counted on the whole way.


Last edited by seventieslord: 11-15-2012 at 02:34 PM. Reason: edited out undrafted
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Old
11-15-2012, 02:34 PM
  #494
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
So basically you are saying we should discredit Cleary for having a good surrounding but credit Burrows for the exact same thing?

There were an article not to long ago about Sedin being the best in league at increasing his teammates shot quality. Sedin boosted Burrows shot quality with almost 7%.

and finally here we have the history of Sedins linemates.

http://www.soyoureanexpert.com/2012/...so-bad_17.html
No, I'm stating what's obvious to all of us - that players suddenly look a lot better in Detroit.

Burrows had already proved himself valuable before he was even with the Sedins. He just scores more now.

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Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
Not your first offensive guy, not your first defensive guy, not a very physical player, not really a specialist at anything. He can finish plays from a good playmaker (played with Modano and Bertuzzi a lot in 2011). Just kind of a jack of all trades, master of none type of player. Won't hurt you in any area, but you could probably replace him without losing sleep too. Quality, versatile roster player.
Those are pretty much my thoughts.

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Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
Yes but look at PK minute/game and you see a pretty telling story about who of them actually were/are best. Burrows has gone from 2nd-5th while Kesler is still the top-PKer. Just avoid confusion, Im not saying Burrows is bad or even average defensively, he's just not that good as Seventies hyperbole would suggest.
He's still on the ice for 1/4 of their PPGA, down from a 1/2 before his time with the Sedins. Back then he was a part of an elite checking line, and now he's maybe the best 1st line glue guy in the league.

Anyway, I don't think the numbers 50% or 25% should define his PK career. I am fine with the career-long number, which is more truthful: 31%, on a team 10% better than average on the PK. That is solid contribution for this level.

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Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
This I would call pure Montreal media bias and conjuration. I don't know in which parallel universe Plekanec even comes close to being one of the best in the league defensively, but it's not this one. Maybe I should ask Bryzgalov.
Well, he does get Selke votes, though I suppose they could be all from Montreal. I'll let BB field this if he cares.

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Of course, Plekanec massively benefited from being the least bad forward on a dreadful team full of extremely crappy forwards for years.
Which one? the one that had 88 points and went to round 3? Or the one that had 96 points and lost in game 7 of round 1? Sounds dreadful and crappy.

that said, I'm obviusly aware that team situations have a lot to do with whether a player ever leads a team in scoring. But we're talking about a guy who's ranked 1-1-2 versus a guy who was 4th at best. Let's be realistic here. There's no way in hell Benoit Hogue leads any team in scoring, ever.

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I could stick Nash on a line with Oates and Francis, have him score more goals than either of them and then proclaim this as some sort of proof that he's a supreme scorer, if that logic is to be followed.
No one said Burrows is a supreme scorer.

Quote:
Of course a shoot-biased third wheel will outscore two playmakers he plays with. Doesn't prove anything. ********* did the same on a line with Sedins.
Don't come into our draft and mention undrafted players please.

the guy you're talking about scored 30 ESP per season his whole career, and that's exactly what he had with the Sedins in 2006 as well. It just happened 18 of them were goals. Yes, he topped them in goals, and he did it once. Let's see him do it 4 times and then we'll talk.

Burrows has had 23-34 ESP and 43-54 ESP four straight seasons now, this is night and day.

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11-15-2012, 02:36 PM
  #495
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******** did the same on a line with Sedins.
The other brother scored half his goals on the PP.

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Old
11-15-2012, 02:52 PM
  #496
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Well, he does get Selke votes, though I suppose they could be all from Montreal. I'll let BB field this if he cares.
For 'one of the best defensively', one'd expect him to be a Selke finalist at least once.

Quote:
Which one? the one that had 88 points and went to round 3? Or the one that had 96 points and lost in game 7 of round 1? Sounds dreadful and crappy.
Both had very weak forward corps. Overachieving and hot goalie in playoffs don't magically turn them into teams where Plekanec faced any serious competition among forwards.

Quote:
No one said Burrows is a supreme scorer.
Yet him outscoring his vastly superior playmaker linemates is pointed to as proof of his offensive ability.

Quote:
the guy you're talking about scored 30 ESP per season his whole career, and that's exactly what he had with the Sedins in 2006 as well. It just happened 18 of them were goals. Yes, he topped them in goals, and he did it once. Let's see him do it 4 times and then we'll talk.
Honestly, any semi-decent goalscorer is bound to outscore the Sedins at ES when playing with them. They're just that good at playmaking, it has very little to do with the third wheel's ability.

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Originally Posted by Dreakmur
The other brother scored half his goals on the PP.
He crushed them at ES too. Or rather, they propelled him above them.

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Old
11-15-2012, 02:55 PM
  #497
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Down here, judgments vary so greatly that it's easily possible for me to like the entire 21st round better than the entire 12th, for example.
Indeed.


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1) he was not speedy; all scouting reports say he was not a good skater. (they all say he is a good finisher who needs someone to get him the puck)
The Hall of Fame disagrees.

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Derek King was a left-winger with a fine offensive touch and above-average speed... preferred to use his speed to shed the opposition ... The fleet winger ... The fast-skating club under Pat Quinn in '98-'99 suited him better
Legends of Hockey is going awfully far out of their way to talk about his speed, for a slow guy.



Quote:
2) this is an old ATD/MLD argument. Let's face facts. Not being dependent on your center/someone to get you the puck is much better than being dependent.
And that factor is irrelevant when playing with a center who can, in fact, get you the puck.

I wanted a specific skill set for my team, based on its unique composition. That has nothing to do with your personal preference for a player or where he ranks in ATD canon.

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11-15-2012, 03:20 PM
  #498
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How does Plekanec terrible line mates have anything to do with the success he has had playing agianst better teams and lines?

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11-15-2012, 04:02 PM
  #499
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A bio for Cleary is definitely on my list of priorities, but JKRX has already scratched the surface of that.

As a quick little piece of info before I put any work into it, I'll throw out that he was invited to team Canada's traning camp with similar offensive output to Milan Lucic's at the time. Of course there were Red Wing management involved in putting together that team, but I don't see them wasting Hitchcock, Ruff, etc's time just because they wanted to hang around one of their boys for a week. All except one forward left from that camp have been drafted, and that guy is a 1D offensive centre - not a valuable ATD commodity at all.

As per Burrows, I wanted him too. Damn you all.

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11-15-2012, 08:28 PM
  #500
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BBS picked at 12:55PM, so chaosrevolver was skipped at 4:55PM. Velociraptor has until 8:55PM.

169 Mike Farkas - Buffalo Mugwumps - Sean O'Donnell, D
170 BudsBuster - Birmingham Barracudas - Mike Sillinger, C
171 tarheelhockey - Macon Whoopee - Wes Walz, C
172 jkrx & Hobnobs - Sheffield Steelers - Cooney Weiland, Coach
173 Hedberg - Fort Saskatchewan Traders - Adam Brown, LW
174 seventieslord & Dreakmur - Regina Pat Canadians - Bill Collins, RW
175 tony d - St. John's Monsters - Ron Wilson, Coach
176 Bring Back Scuderi - Pittsburgh Professionals - Ken Schinkel, RW
177 chaosrevolver - Belleville Bulls - SKIPPED
178 Velociraptor - Utah Grizzlies - ON THE CLOCK UNTIL 8:55PM EST
179 Johnny Engine - St. John's Ice Caps -
180 BillyShoe1721 - EHC Eisbären Berlin -

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