Not at all. It just fascinates me that some people spend their time and energy on something that angers them so much. I like hockey, I like the players, so I follow it. If I thought hockey players were fat and happy and overpaid, I'd probably be mad all the time too.
I've never understood this argument. It's completely possible to love the game of hockey and hate all of the ******** that goes along with it.
If I was a mom and the NHL/NHL players were my kids, this would totally be an "I love you but I don't like you very much right now" moment.
I must have missed all the stories about owners who gave up their other sources of income when they decided to lockout the NHL. Ference has some nerve. . .
I don't begrudge Ference or any other player playing over seas if that what this tongue in cheek comment is supposed to highlight. Good for them honestly, and as I've already said, I'd rather see them play and stay in shape. The fact that someone tries to feed us some line of BS that they're not making money going over there in order to evoke what, sympathy/pity for their plight is pretty ludicrous.
There seems to be a real "The Man versus the Little Guy" mindset around the owners versus the players and it's silly. There is no little guy in this, unless you include the fans in the conversation, other then that there is a league and it's health and a bunch of rich people trying to pad their own bank accounts. There are two sides, both of them with more money then they know what to do with fighting over the little guys money. The difference is the majority of one side is losing money on the NHL, and if that side continues to lose money the NHL will suffer badly because fans will suffer badly.
It's like people don't understand what will happen if player salaries continue to rise. Who do you think foots the bill? It won't be the owners, they won't continue to lose money hand over fist to support your addiction. They'll increase ticket prices and if the areas won't support it economically you'll get a bunch of GM's refusing to spend to the cap while others take full advantage and stack their teams, or worse, you'll end up with a situation similar to what Jersey is going through. I can just imagine the rabble here if JJ implemented an internal cap of $60mill so he could turn a profit (which business folks tend to like to do) while the leagues actual cap was $72 and other teams spent to it. I could just imagine if franchises in the states attempted to raise ticket prices to compare with a franchise like Toronto's, literally gouging fans so they can make their money. Torches and pitchforks, all because the players had to get their money. Apparently, being able to pull down 14mill in one year just isn't enough. Funny thing is a player making that profits significantly more in one season then 80% of the franchises do.
I wasn't specifically talking about Ference but the players in general. There have been plenty of tweets over the course of this situation that have been pretty "woe is me".
If you say so. I don't follow enough players, I guess.
I wonder if the players ever think about how so few people care about whether they are playing or not.. 99% of them could never make the same money in the real world..I was so mad last time there was no hockey... This time, yeah I'd love to have it, but it's nowhere near a necessity..Plenty of things around to keep my interest....I would imagine (and hope) I would miss it more when the NFL ends, but I'm apathethic right now...
I've never understood this argument. It's completely possible to love the game of hockey and hate all of the ******** that goes along with it.
If I was a mom and the NHL/NHL players were my kids, this would totally be an "I love you but I don't like you very much right now" moment.
Love the game and hate the players? (Not talking about the lockout, but in general.) Sure, I guess it's possible, I mean, we see it a lot, right? I just think it must not be much fun. How can you enjoy a team's success if you think the players are a bunch of jerks?
Love the game and hate the players? (Not talking about the lockout, but in general.) Sure, I guess it's possible, I mean, we see it a lot, right? I just think it must not be much fun. How can you enjoy a team's success if you think the players are a bunch of jerks?
Not sure if you're criticizing people for thinking that the players are jerks but this is definitely something a lot of fans are struggling with right now. Considering that the billions in revenue that these guys are squabbling over comes from the fans who come to watch them play, a 3rd work stoppage in 20 years is definitely a good way to alienate the fans and makes a lot of us feel like these guys are ungrateful and unappreciative that anyone cares to pay to watch them participate in a recreational activity.
Love the game and hate the players? (Not talking about the lockout, but in general.) Sure, I guess it's possible, I mean, we see it a lot, right? I just think it must not be much fun. How can you enjoy a team's success if you think the players are a bunch of jerks?
The players change....I will always love the group that won us the Cup...I will also think those left from that group last year underacheived. Love em when they deserve it, and get on them when they don't.
It seems of the two of us, I'm the one closest to bringing anything like facts to the table so far. Sorry, you made the comment. You've brought speculation and conjecture to this point. If you have more accurate financial figures, please feel free to throw them out there.
First, facts to back up my point that even teams showing minimal profit in that report likely lost money... at the very top of the Operating Income column you'll notice that it specifically mentions those profits are before things such as "Interest, Taxes, Depreciation and Amortization". Also... The NHL's Problem: Only Three Teams Are Making Real Money
Bottom line, based on that information most teams are losing money (or aren't making any). I look forward to any reports you can provide that show the contrary.
To deal with your points individually. Re. the hard cap and the owners rejecting the proposal in the last CBA. The hard cap you seem to be talking about was actually put in place, being definied as a cap that must be strictly adhered to. When I say hard cap I mean a static figure that doesn't grow as revenues grow, as revenue growth figures are often skewed by one or two teams. The majority of NHL teams are losing money or are barely breaking even (again, unless you have numbers to the contrary.
Re. players wanting a hard cap and owners rejecting it last time around. The PA wanted nothing to do with any type of salary cap. I know you're a stickler for proof, so...
Re. Teams always being able to find a buyer. The LA Kings have been rumored to have been up for sale for 3 years now. We all know the debacle going on in Phoenix. No one's pulled the trigger on the Devils yet and they're now in a massive hole. And don't forget the proof:
The owners aren't crying poor, they're saying the NHL isn't profitable and by all appearances (again, unless you bring some proof to the contrary) they're absolutely right. If your argument is "it's all common sense" simply look at the teams that stayed well below the salary cap last year and still lost money.
Hopefully that suffices, but if not feel free to throw it out there again. The information is plastered all over the internet for everyone to see. It seems to be the norm for people to say "oh well, they'r erich, this is just a hobby for them". That's ridiculous, no one wants to lose money on a venture no matter what their current bankroll is..
very good logical post but ill play devils advocate just to try to show im not totally an owners apologist myself
you end up saying no one wants to lose money on their venture but we know these owners will spend obscene amounts on all sorts of stuff. they buy 5000 dollar bottles of wine or 500 000 dollar cars when they obviously dont need to.
so they are willing to lose money on their ventures... but what they really need is choice in how much they will lose... what they will lose it on
their is a problem when someone is telling them to revenue share with their rivals. there is no sex appeal in that. spending 100 mill on an ufa is a choice they are willing to make... giving 5 mill to pheonix is not.
thats simple cold hard reality people... deal with it
Love the game and hate the players? (Not talking about the lockout, but in general.) Sure, I guess it's possible, I mean, we see it a lot, right? I just think it must not be much fun. How can you enjoy a team's success if you think the players are a bunch of jerks?
I don't hate the players. I don't think they're a bunch of jerks. I don't think that anyone hates the players. I do think they are partially to blame for this whole fiasco, and crowing about solidarity and then going to Europe to play until things get resolved just doesn't add up. I'll be over it once the puck drops again, but I'm not impressed at how either side is handling this. The players aren't infalliable here, but that doesn't mean I won't be in my seat with my Ference jersey when we have hockey again.
I guess it's not as black and white to me as it is to you.
Not sure if you're criticizing people for thinking that the players are jerks but this is definitely something a lot of fans are struggling with right now. Considering that the billions in revenue that these guys are squabbling over comes from the fans who come to watch them play, a 3rd work stoppage in 20 years is definitely a good way to alienate the fans and makes a lot of us feel like these guys are ungrateful and unappreciative that anyone cares to pay to watch them participate in a recreational activity.
I hardly think the players should cave, and think the owners are evil incarnate, but at some point the players I think need to realize they get paid alot of money to play a game only a select percent of the population care about...I remember the President of the United States commenting how the NFL needs to get worked out.... You think he even knows hockey is on lockout?
I don't hate the players. I don't think they're a bunch of jerks. I don't think that anyone hates the players. I do think they are partially to blame for this whole fiasco, and crowing about solidarity and then going to Europe to play until things get resolved just doesn't add up. I'll be over it once the puck drops again, but I'm not impressed at how either side is handling this. The players aren't infalliable here, but that doesn't mean I won't be in my seat with my Ference jersey when we have hockey again.
I guess it's not as black and white to me as it is to you.
Can you think of one other industry that has a labor stoppage / lockout then scatters all over the world? Put 400-500 of these guys in front of the NHL headquarters every day of the week....**** would have been hammered out by now.
I don't hate the players. I don't think they're a bunch of jerks. I don't think that anyone hates the players. I do think they are partially to blame for this whole fiasco, and crowing about solidarity and then going to Europe to play until things get resolved just doesn't add up. I'll be over it once the puck drops again, but I'm not impressed at how either side is handling this. The players aren't infalliable here, but that doesn't mean I won't be in my seat with my Ference jersey when we have hockey again.
I guess it's not as black and white to me as it is to you.
It's not black and white to me at all. Just the opposite.
Love the game and hate the players? (Not talking about the lockout, but in general.) Sure, I guess it's possible, I mean, we see it a lot, right? I just think it must not be much fun. How can you enjoy a team's success if you think the players are a bunch of jerks?
Because I can separate my love for the game with my opinions on other aspects of it. It's the same reason I and many others can approach a trade thread with a logical opinion on the players involved as opposed to unwillingness to even consider the possibility based purely on emotion. I'm realistic about my allegiance to individual players in that it in most cases only goes as far as the crest on the front of their Jersey.
If you haven't figured out yet that people who religiously visit a site called Hockeys Future at all times of the day and night are die hard fans of the game, instead feeling the need to constantly question them on just that, whatever answer they give you likely won't convince you. Probably be smarter to just stop asking such a ridiculous question in the first place.
It's fascinated me how badly fans of this sport want to designate the "bad guys" and "good guys" in these negotiations. There's no such thing.
Kaoz is right when he says that the league isn't financially profitable in the current state. The NHL is right to want cut the share that the players get. sj77 is right when he says that the players have made every single concession in the battle thus far. The players are right in their solution of revenue share being a key element in a healthy league.
To me, the biggest "bad guy" in all of this, has been an inability to pinpoint precisely where the numbers need to be. The communication between the two sides has been atrocious. The lack of effort to actually problem-solve is what frustrates ME.
If he just took the escrow and union allowance he'd probably be OK financially. What he's referring to is what it's costing him to play in the Czech Republic, i.e. how much he's earning vs. how much he's paying. Obviously he's not begging in the streets, but obviously he's not fattening his bank account either. He's breaking even or paying a little bit because he needs to play.
The notion that NHL players are all fat and happy in Europe is incorrect. Be mad at the players if you want; there's plenty to be mad over without false assumptions.
And as a fan, I'd rather see them play than get rusty.
i think its so interesting how the players continue to freak over the nhl owners saying they want a cut back in compensation... but then there is NO OTHER COMPETITOR ON THE PLANET paying anything close to NHL wages.
The players cry that they were given 100 million dollar contacts and now might lose 10% or whatever of it... but doesnt this still leave them with a 90 million dollar contact????
whats the alternative for these players... go play for 100k in some euro league???
i mean... is it really smart to shut the down or continue with a business model that will inevitably lead to contraction and less union jobs? or is it smarter to say 90 mill is still WAY WAY WAY WAY more then they could make doing anything else.
when these players complain that europe isnt actually an option for them... you think theyd do more to make the ONLY OPTION a bit more secure and viable. Again, they arent being abused in the current system. They would still be making filthy amounts of money even at 1/2 the current pay and NO ONE is suggesting a 50% paycut {except me}
the players do allright in the NHL... allright indeed
i think its so interesting how the players continue to freak over the nhl owners saying they want a cut back in compensation... but then there is NO OTHER COMPETITOR ON THE PLANET paying anything close to NHL wages.
The players cry that they were given 100 million dollar contacts and now might lose 10% or whatever of it... but doesnt this still leave them with a 90 million dollar contact????
whats the alternative for these players... go play for 100k in some euro league???
i mean... is it really smart to shut the down or continue with a business model that will inevitably lead to contraction and less union jobs? or is it smarter to say 90 mill is still WAY WAY WAY WAY more then they could make doing anything else.
when these players complain that europe isnt actually an option for them... you think theyd do more to make the ONLY OPTION a bit more secure and viable. Again, they arent being abused in the current system. They would still be making filthy amounts of money even at 1/2 the current pay and NO ONE is suggesting a 50% paycut {except me}
the players do allright in the NHL... allright indeed
To the greater point, I don't think the PA is fond of the idea that whenever a CBA expires, they're expected by the league to take a pay cut. And the league hasn't proposed anything to make the cut more palatable.
Instead of "take a cut in HRR share, and we'll give you THIS"... it's "take a cut in HRR share and we'll limit your contract leverage and versatility". Wha?
You're right AOF. They'll make more playing in the NHL than anywhere else. But this is a NEGOTIATION. Not a dictatorship. And without an underlined GOAL in mind, it just seems like the players take all the flack for an unprofitable league.
i think its so interesting how the players continue to freak over the nhl owners saying they want a cut back in compensation... but then there is NO OTHER COMPETITOR ON THE PLANET paying anything close to NHL wages.
The players cry that they were given 100 million dollar contacts and now might lose 10% or whatever of it... but doesnt this still leave them with a 90 million dollar contact????
whats the alternative for these players... go play for 100k in some euro league???
i mean... is it really smart to shut the down or continue with a business model that will inevitably lead to contraction and less union jobs? or is it smarter to say 90 mill is still WAY WAY WAY WAY more then they could make doing anything else.
when these players complain that europe isnt actually an option for them... you think theyd do more to make the ONLY OPTION a bit more secure and viable. Again, they arent being abused in the current system. They would still be making filthy amounts of money even at 1/2 the current pay and NO ONE is suggesting a 50% paycut {except me}
the players do allright in the NHL... allright indeed
It goes both ways though. The NHL makes money because it recruits the very best players in the world so it's not like they can just go out and get scabs and have a viable product.
i think its so interesting how the players continue to freak over the nhl owners saying they want a cut back in compensation... but then there is NO OTHER COMPETITOR ON THE PLANET paying anything close to NHL wages.
The players cry that they were given 100 million dollar contacts and now might lose 10% or whatever of it... but doesnt this still leave them with a 90 million dollar contact????
whats the alternative for these players... go play for 100k in some euro league???
i mean... is it really smart to shut the down or continue with a business model that will inevitably lead to contraction and less union jobs? or is it smarter to say 90 mill is still WAY WAY WAY WAY more then they could make doing anything else.
when these players complain that europe isnt actually an option for them... you think theyd do more to make the ONLY OPTION a bit more secure and viable. Again, they arent being abused in the current system. They would still be making filthy amounts of money even at 1/2 the current pay and NO ONE is suggesting a 50% paycut {except me}
the players do allright in the NHL... allright indeed
Good lord, how many players do you think have $100 mil contracts?
Here's something I've always wondered....it's clear that the players absolutely detest Bettman. Why don't they come out and say that they refuse to sign a new CBA until Bettman is replaced? I'm not even trying to be funny here....if I was an NHLPA member and wanted to ensure that this didn't happen again in another 6 years I'd insist that Bettman lose his job. It's funny that they were so quick to oust Paul Kelly but have not tried to pressure Bettman out of his position. I know they don't have any direct power to do so, but using the lockout as leverage is probably the only opportunity they'll ever have.
Because I can separate my love for the game with my opinions on other aspects of it. It's the same reason I and many others can approach a trade thread with a logical opinion on the players involved as opposed to unwillingness to even consider the possibility based purely on emotion. I'm realistic about my allegiance to individual players in that it in most cases only goes as far as the crest on the front of their Jersey.
If you haven't figured out yet that people who religiously visit a site called Hockeys Future at all times of the day and night are die hard fans of the game, instead feeling the need to constantly question them on just that, whatever answer they give you likely won't convince you. Probably be smarter to just stop asking such a ridiculous question in the first place.
So it's a ridiculous question to try to understand your point of view, rather than to just make assumptions? Gotcha.
I find it odd that someone who calls NHL players "fat and happy" can then turn around and root for them. I have to like someone before I wish him well. If you find me odd for that, feel free.
To the greater point, I don't think the PA is fond of the idea that whenever a CBA expires, they're expected by the league to take a pay cut. And the league hasn't proposed anything to make the cut more palatable.
Instead of "take a cut in HRR share, and we'll give you THIS"... it's "take a cut in HRR share and we'll limit your contract leverage and versatility". Wha?
You're right AOF. They'll make more playing in the NHL than anywhere else. But this is a NEGOTIATION. Not a dictatorship. And without an underlined GOAL in mind, it just seems like the players take all the flack for an unprofitable league.
It kind of is though, no? . If the players want to make this type of stupid money, they will have to do it by the rules set forth by the business owners, no? Many of these businesses are not even turning a profit. Maybe the league should be like a Starbucks and shut down all the locations that are unable to turn an acceptable profit. Now, the 1000 member NHLPA has to fight each other for 500 jobs. Honestly, what field of business would say Milan Lucic make 6 mil bucks? Marchand 4+ mil? Bergeron 5+ mil? Three quarters of these owners could use the money they invest in their hockey operations into some other investments and make more then they do now. I feel for the players...They get screwed at every turn...but you know what? So do I. I make very good money, but it's less then it was 5 years ago. My health coverage has doubled. My company pension plan liquidated and I am in charge of saving more for my retirement...like many of you...
So it's a ridiculous question to try to understand your point of view, rather than to just make assumptions? Gotcha.
I find it odd that someone who calls NHL players "fat and happy" can then turn around and root for them. I have to like someone before I wish him well. If you find me odd for that, feel free.
Last year's team was pretty fat and happy and I still rooted for 'em...
