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Does Anybody Here Remember Vera Lynn? (CBA & Lockout Discussion) XXVIII ‎

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Old
11-15-2012, 02:03 PM
  #551
DPyro
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Originally Posted by Kreator View Post
Or it will go back to being an original 6 league... + Canadian teams.
I'm fine with that...

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11-15-2012, 02:04 PM
  #552
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Fehr comes off as a saboteur to me. To continue bargaining off his own proposal that will never, ever be signed by the NHL is just a way to keep the talks from progressing. IMO I don't see there being a season while he is in charge of the union. I think he is just going for the salary cap and that's been his plan from the start -- just like he did in MLB.

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11-15-2012, 02:12 PM
  #553
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Originally Posted by Slads View Post
Fehr comes off as a saboteur to me. To continue bargaining off his own proposal that will never, ever be signed by the NHL is just a way to keep the talks from progressing. IMO I don't see there being a season while he is in charge of the union. I think he is just going for the salary cap and that's been his plan from the start -- just like he did in MLB.
If Fehr's endgame is to get rid of the salary cap be prepared for more than 1 lost NHL season.

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Old
11-15-2012, 02:12 PM
  #554
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slads View Post
Fehr comes off as a saboteur to me. To continue bargaining off his own proposal that will never, ever be signed by the NHL is just a way to keep the talks from progressing. IMO I don't see there being a season while he is in charge of the union. I think he is just going for the salary cap and that's been his plan from the start -- just like he did in MLB.
Why is Fehr any more obligated to negotiate off of the NHL's proposal than the NHL is to negotiate off of his?

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11-15-2012, 02:15 PM
  #555
Samzilla
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Originally Posted by LetangInTheSO View Post
Why is Fehr any more obligated to negotiate off of the NHL's proposal than the NHL is to negotiate off of his?
He's not obligated but if Fehr doesn't let go of de-linkage, we'll never have another NHL season.

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Old
11-15-2012, 02:17 PM
  #556
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Originally Posted by LetangInTheSO View Post
Why is Fehr any more obligated to negotiate off of the NHL's proposal than the NHL is to negotiate off of his?
Why?
#notSureIfSerious

Bettman and the owners canceled the entire 2004-2005 season to get LINKAGE.

The NHLPA's proposals have been all based on DE-LINKAGE.

If you want to make any progress in fighting a fire, do you dump more kerosene on it or do you use a non-flammable substance?

I dunno about you, but if I have a grease fire on my stove, I grab baking soda, not kerosene...

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Old
11-15-2012, 02:23 PM
  #557
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Everyone is sooo scared of the big bad boogeyman Fehr...without looking across the table at the man facing him.

If the players see a fair deal on the table WITH LINKAGE, it will be signed. It's really that simple. None of the LINKED proposals from the league are fair at all to the players. Period.

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11-15-2012, 02:25 PM
  #558
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"But I'm more discouraged now than I have been at any point in the process," Daly added.

Wtf....
Probably because they met for 30+ hours and are really no closer to an agreement. Revenue sharing is about it.

The players just find new things to be upset about without actually negotiated for them. The players have yet to table ANYTHING besides the delinked HRR split. No contract terms, no player saftey terms, nothing.

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11-15-2012, 02:25 PM
  #559
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Originally Posted by SidTheKid8787 View Post
Everyone is sooo scared of the big bad boogeyman Fehr...without looking across the table at the man facing him.

If the players see a fair deal on the table WITH LINKAGE, it will be signed. It's really that simple. None of the LINKED proposals from the league are fair at all to the players. Period.
Define "fair".....

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Old
11-15-2012, 02:25 PM
  #560
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So I've been away from this process for a while. What happened with all the optimism of those long meetings happening every day? Seemed like real progress was being made. What was the purpose of all those hours then, if there's this sudden doom and gloom now?

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Old
11-15-2012, 02:26 PM
  #561
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SidTheKid8787 View Post
Everyone is sooo scared of the big bad boogeyman Fehr...without looking across the table at the man facing him.

If the players see a fair deal on the table WITH LINKAGE, it will be signed. It's really that simple. None of the LINKED proposals from the league are fair at all to the players. Period.
Fair is a funny word. Not only does it mean different things to different people. What is "fair" also varies greatly from person to person.

Fair is irrelevant in this situation. Its a negotiation. The end goal is not fair, its to get a good deal for your end goals. Negotiations are always driven by leverage. Leverage is the key in this situation as well, not fairness.

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11-15-2012, 02:28 PM
  #562
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Originally Posted by SidTheKid8787 View Post
Everyone is sooo scared of the big bad boogeyman Fehr...without looking across the table at the man facing him.

If the players see a fair deal on the table WITH LINKAGE, it will be signed. It's really that simple. None of the LINKED proposals from the league are fair at all to the players. Period.
Who are these players and what is fair? Because the NHLPA negotiations have indicated that their term of fair is guaranteed raises regardless of what happens. Go tell your boss that you want that and have your resume ready.

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Old
11-15-2012, 02:29 PM
  #563
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It would seem that the owners have had it with Fehr. It's unfortunate but they are simply done negotiating with themselves and are finished with the passive aggressive path the Players are taking.

I am for the first time concerned that this season is finished. If the players don't work with the League on the contract issues and come to a middle ground, it's over. Their stance of not wanting to change anything on the contract issues will not fly, not after the Weber fiasco (among many others).

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Old
11-15-2012, 02:31 PM
  #564
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SidTheKid8787 View Post
Everyone is sooo scared of the big bad boogeyman Fehr...without looking across the table at the man facing him.

If the players see a fair deal on the table WITH LINKAGE, it will be signed. It's really that simple. None of the LINKED proposals from the league are fair at all to the players. Period.
Somehow I don't believe that's true and I'm not taking your word for it

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Old
11-15-2012, 02:32 PM
  #565
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Keep in mind who you're arguing with.

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Old
11-15-2012, 02:33 PM
  #566
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SidTheKid8787 View Post
Everyone is sooo scared of the big bad boogeyman Fehr...without looking across the table at the man facing him.

If the players see a fair deal on the table WITH LINKAGE, it will be signed. It's really that simple. None of the LINKED proposals from the league are fair at all to the players. Period.
So are you saying that the PA's proposal with de-linkage is fair to the owners? Be reasonable.

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Old
11-15-2012, 02:33 PM
  #567
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Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
Define "fair".....
I'd prefer to define whats unfair
An example being during a negotiation, one side says this is "take it or leave it"

How is that considered negotiating at all infact?

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11-15-2012, 02:33 PM
  #568
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I'm thinking that I'd like to either see a deal done soon, somewhere around what everyone has assumed the deal was going to be from the day 1, start up December 1st, and make the last two months somewhat less pointless than they already are.

Or...

Something so catastrophic, that it'll be impossible to predict what the league looks like if it gets back to doing business. If this season gets cancelled, I don't want to see just a year. Been there, done that, boooooring. I'd like to see what happens if Fehr goes for the cap. Or a few owners who want out completely. Small market owners who want to be bought out by the big market owners, and/or even the Leafs somehow taking all their money and just creating a Toronto Hockey League with like 10 teams in the Golden Horseshoe and screw everyone else. Something different.

If a year gets cancelled, but we still have a cap, and a 50/50 split, and all contract rights remain the same as today, etc, that will have been wasting everybody's time.

Give me hockey, or give me annihilation! I want to be entertained.

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Old
11-15-2012, 02:34 PM
  #569
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SidTheKid8787 View Post
Everyone is sooo scared of the big bad boogeyman Fehr...without looking across the table at the man facing him.

If the players see a fair deal on the table WITH LINKAGE, it will be signed. It's really that simple. None of the LINKED proposals from the league are fair at all to the players. Period.
You mean if FEHR likes the deal on the table, he might actually relate it to the players, without leaving things out and tailoring his description of the proposal to get his personal opinion of it across, and THEN the players would sign it? Because I don't see the players being directly handed any proposals or getting together to collectively vote on what is proposed. I see Fehr being given proposals and turning around and telling the PA "well... this is what's being offered, but here's why it's a terrible offer and we don't want it".

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Old
11-15-2012, 02:35 PM
  #570
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Originally Posted by Rinzler View Post
It would seem that the owners have had it with Fehr. It's unfortunate but they are simply done negotiating with themselves and are finished with the passive aggressive path the Players are taking.

I am for the first time concerned that this season is finished. If the players don't work with the League on the contract issues and come to a middle ground, it's over. Their stance of not wanting to change anything on the contract issues will not fly, not after the Weber fiasco (among many others).
I think this is what the owners should have done 6 weeks ago. The players aren't giving up squat really, they are still making millions and the (most) owners to this point are still losing money every year.

This is exactly what Fehr and the PA needed to have done, they need a dose of reality and need to realize this system is not working, for the owners. If they want to play so badly, they can go to russia and play for a fraction of what the NHL pays them.

If losing another season is what it takes then I'm all for it, NHL players think they deserve top tier salary when they are bottom tier sport in north america. The math just doesn't add up.

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Old
11-15-2012, 02:35 PM
  #571
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So far it's been all give from the PA and no give from the NHL. When you negotiate with your boss do you start negotiations with a pay decrease and then hope to only make the decrease a smaller percent than initially offered? Does that make any sense to you?
When a business is forced to cut costs to survive, sometimes the workers have to take a reduction in salary. I've seen it happen a number of times - either take the reduction or face layoffs. The NHL is not sustainable under the current cost structure.

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11-15-2012, 02:35 PM
  #572
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Originally Posted by SidTheKid8787 View Post
I'd prefer to define whats unfair
An example being during a negotiation, one side says this is "take it or leave it"

How is that considered negotiating at all infact?
How is repeatedly pushing negotiations off and not putting forth an offer considered negotiating?

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Old
11-15-2012, 02:39 PM
  #573
CerebralGenesis
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"But I'm more discouraged now than I have been at any point in the process," Daly added.

Wtf....
I'm not shocked at all. They have essentially been talking to themselves since last season. Say what you want about the NHLPA's stance and whether you agree with it or not, but they have been proposing the same thing every single time with the only changes being what the page order has been and what type of font they have used.

Add in the reports of the union head coming to meetings late, taking years to fetch a water, and forgetting documents just to troll you and you don't have a situation I would want to be part of. Frustrated fans? Frustrated negotiations as well.

Some player pressure should change this shortly though.

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Old
11-15-2012, 02:42 PM
  #574
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The fact that this is a financial stalemate, and not a fundamental one, is what pisses me off most.

However, I suppose that means this is technically the easiest stalemate to resolve since eventually one party will reach their breaking point, and both parties need each other. This is why I've always felt this isn't a negotiation so much as a game of chicken, and I think both sides have a line in the sand where they intend to swerve, and I bet both lines are before the entire season is lost.

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Old
11-15-2012, 02:43 PM
  #575
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Anyone seen if there's been discussions about whether to keep a year on the contracts or contracts will lose a year?

Just looking at 2014, a lot of good value contracts/good players becoming UFAs seems like owners would probably be hearing it from their GMs to do their best to avoid this.
Actually, I would guess that a larger UFA pool works in favour of the GMs and is a disadvantage to the players as a whole. GMs have more quality options to explore and having more options in the UFA pool most likely means that players may not be able to extract more money on their contract than if there was lesser amount of quality players to choose from.

In a smaller UFA pool, Lupul (for example) might be the 8th best UFA available at the end of this season. If he plays no games (his case is special though because his history of injury, this season would be critical to the kind of contract he could land and by not playing, he's potentially screwing himself here but anyways...), with a greater UFA pool, Lupul may go from 8th best UFA available to 17th best UFA available. This takes away from how valuable his services are to a GM when the GM has more better options availableto him to invest the money in.

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