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Does Anybody Here Remember Vera Lynn? (CBA & Lockout Discussion) XXVIII ‎

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Old
11-15-2012, 02:43 PM
  #576
Kegsey
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Originally Posted by SidTheKid8787 View Post
I'd prefer to define whats unfair
An example being during a negotiation, one side says this is "take it or leave it"

How is that considered negotiating at all infact?
Have you been paying attention at all? The League has been making all the proposals and concessions, frankly I'm surprised it took them this long to to say "take it or leave it." The PA refuses to work off of any proposal except for their ridiculous delinkage ideas. How is that negotiating?

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11-15-2012, 02:44 PM
  #577
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Originally Posted by CerebralGenesis View Post
I'm not shocked at all. They have essentially been talking to themselves since last season. Say what you want about the NHLPA's stance and whether you agree with it or not, but they have been proposing the same thing every single time with the only changes being what the page order has been and what type of font they have used.

Add in the reports of the union head coming to meetings late, taking years to fetch a water, and forgetting documents just to troll you and you don't have a situation I would want to be part of. Frustrated fans? Frustrated negotiations as well.

Some player pressure should change this shortly though.
Fehr is guilty of this? Where and when did all this come out?

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11-15-2012, 02:45 PM
  #578
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Originally Posted by Crows View Post
"But I'm more discouraged now than I have been at any point in the process," Daly added.

Wtf....
Let's take a little quiz. The lawyer for the owners, speaking on the record and knowing the players will see his quote:

A. Is being completely honest
B. Is not being entirely accurate
C. Lying through his teeth in an attempt to increase pressure on the other side
D. Had just ingested copious amounts of peyote and had no idea what he was saying

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Old
11-15-2012, 02:46 PM
  #579
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Originally Posted by CerebralGenesis View Post
I'm not shocked at all. They have essentially been talking to themselves since last season. Say what you want about the NHLPA's stance and whether you agree with it or not, but they have been proposing the same thing every single time with the only changes being what the page order has been and what type of font they have used.

Add in the reports of the union head coming to meetings late, taking years to fetch a water, and forgetting documents just to troll you and you don't have a situation I would want to be part of. Frustrated fans? Frustrated negotiations as well.

Some player pressure should change this shortly though.
This is what concerns me. The players are kept in line by Fehr. He's extremely good and keeping them informed and thus under control.

Player pressure is irrelevant when the leadership keeps absorbing the pressure like Fehr has been. I do admit, this guy is ruthless and extremely good at what he does. I work in conflict resolution myself and this is the first step in getting control over a situation. He's an expert at it and is achieved through thorough communication.

Nothing will change until Fehr cracks and that's just not going to happen. The owners need these changes, so their back end support is implicit.

My optimism is fading fast...

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11-15-2012, 02:46 PM
  #580
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Quote:
Originally Posted by santiclaws View Post
Let's take a little quiz. The lawyer for the owners, speaking on the record and knowing the players will see his quote:

A. Is being completely honest
B. Is not being entirely accurate
C. Lying through his teeth in an attempt to increase pressure on the other side
D. Had just ingested copious amounts of peyote and had no idea what he was saying
I would say the first 3 are equally possible.

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11-15-2012, 02:46 PM
  #581
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Originally Posted by wondeROY View Post
I think this is what the owners should have done 6 weeks ago. The players aren't giving up squat really, they are still making millions and the (most) owners to this point are still losing money every year.

This is exactly what Fehr and the PA needed to have done, they need a dose of reality and need to realize this system is not working, for the owners. If they want to play so badly, they can go to russia and play for a fraction of what the NHL pays them.

If losing another season is what it takes then I'm all for it, NHL players think they deserve top tier salary when they are bottom tier sport in north america. The math just doesn't add up.
Yet I'm sure you, much like myself, would LOVE to see NHL players get top tier salary, more than the NFL and MLB COMBINED because that should mean the NHL is doing great financially. Thing is the players need to understand that they would get top dollar in due time (as long as the league continues to grow)! I think, after losing the last CBA war (yet still making out like bandits in the long run) the players have been convinced by Fehr that the Owners will continue to dig into their pockets every time they negotiate which is why we see the players taking such a hardline stance, so they can't be bullied.

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11-15-2012, 02:47 PM
  #582
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Originally Posted by Rinzler View Post
It would seem that the owners have had it with Fehr. It's unfortunate but they are simply done negotiating with themselves and are finished with the passive aggressive path the Players are taking.

I am for the first time concerned that this season is finished. If the players don't work with the League on the contract issues and come to a middle ground, it's over. Their stance of not wanting to change anything on the contract issues will not fly, not after the Weber fiasco (among many others).
But that's just it, the NHL is not interested in meeting half way on contract issues, it's their way or the the highway, there's no middle ground with the owners, they want their cake and eat it too.

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11-15-2012, 02:47 PM
  #583
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Originally Posted by bp13 View Post
The fact that this is a financial stalemate, and not a fundamental one, is what pisses me off most.

However, I suppose that means this is technically the easiest stalemate to resolve since eventually one party will reach their breaking point, and both parties need each other. This is why I've always felt this isn't a negotiation so much as a game of chicken, and I think both sides have a line in the sand where they intend to swerve, and I bet both lines are before the entire season is lost.
I don't think the owners need the players as much as the players need the owners.

In the context of the NHL, it may be equal, but most, if not all, the owners have other sustainable sources of income. The profit or loss of the NHL club they own is likely a drop in the bucket compared to what their other ventures generate for them.

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11-15-2012, 02:47 PM
  #584
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Originally Posted by Kegsey View Post
Have you been paying attention at all? The League has been making all the proposals and concessions, frankly I'm surprised it took them this long to to say "take it or leave it." The PA refuses to work off of any proposal except for their ridiculous delinkage ideas. How is that negotiating?
Because they don't want linkage. They've negotiated and said, "We don't want linkage." The fact that the system currently has linkage doesn't bind the players anymore than the owners are bound by the current 57% of HRR.

No one's failed to negotiate here; the parties just have a fundamental disagreement over philosophy. The players don't want to take a cut in aggregate pay and the owners have demanded that they do. The owners have also made a request for a bunch of contractual reforms that the players don't want.

The sides really aren't close on either major part -- cut in aggregate pay, or contractual reforms.

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11-15-2012, 02:50 PM
  #585
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kegsey View Post
Have you been paying attention at all? The League has been making all the proposals and concessions, frankly I'm surprised it took them this long to to say "take it or leave it." The PA refuses to work off of any proposal except for their ridiculous delinkage ideas. How is that negotiating?
A proposal with the connotation attached "take it or leave it" is more detrimental to the process than one without. Infact the players resolve has strengthened from the leagues actions during this.

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Old
11-15-2012, 02:50 PM
  #586
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Originally Posted by Kreator View Post
Or it will go back to being an original 6 league... + Canadian teams.
Or just create 2 leagues: one for Canadian teams and one for American teams. Country champions play for the Stanley Cup.

America has won the last 17 Cups, so it'll stay here until Canada wins it again, ok?

(no )

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11-15-2012, 02:50 PM
  #587
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Originally Posted by Greschner4 View Post
Because they don't want linkage. They've negotiated and said, "We don't want linkage."
They can sit and earn nothing while the most of the individual club owners feel little to no financial impact.

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Old
11-15-2012, 02:50 PM
  #588
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There's a poll right now on TSN asking "Do you think the lockout will carry over to the 2013-14 season."

Stupid poll question first of all but stupider response is that 65% of people have said yes

Shows how stupid people can be when they let their emotions get in the way. Carry over to 2013 lol

Quote:
Originally Posted by bp13 View Post
The fact that this is a financial stalemate, and not a fundamental one, is what pisses me off most.
I think it is fundamental for the NHLPA. One side asking why they need to take pay cuts again after revenues increase along with the other frustrations they feel over Bettman. That's probably the one aspect in which the NHL underestimated the PA in, it seems quite personal for the PA and they're willing to lose $ to prove that point.

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Old
11-15-2012, 02:50 PM
  #589
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Owners absorbing the make whole addresses the issue of the current players and their contracts not being what was originally stated so that argument doesn't hold much water.

Players will get their money now like they have been fighting for. Yet they haven't agreed to it because it isn't bearing risk for themselves, I mean not linked.

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Old
11-15-2012, 02:51 PM
  #590
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Originally Posted by HabsRock View Post
no, they cant but you are guaranteeing that all the best players end up on the top 10 richest teams and teams like Columbus and Phoenix are relegated to being farm teams for The Habs, Leafs, Bruins, Flyers, Rangers, Red Wings etc...
You are not making any sense. Columbus and Phoenix can still sign or at least try to sign the same players. THEY ALL ARE RESTRICTED BY THE SALARY CAP. Why is this is so hard for you to understand? They are all restricted by the rule about paying one player a max percentage of the cap. So, if Crosby was UFA today, he'd have every team that has the cap space offering him the max contract. If Columbus has the space, they can make the offer. If Toronto doesnt have the space, they can't. Then, it will be up to Crosby as to where he signs, as it should be.

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11-15-2012, 02:51 PM
  #591
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I hope the players stay strong. They have no reason to give in to owners' demands - they bring in the cash. This is a situation where the players know their value and owners disagree, eventually the owners will give in when players go to KHL or a concurring league is founded.

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Old
11-15-2012, 02:52 PM
  #592
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Originally Posted by SidTheKid8787 View Post
A proposal with the connotation attached "take it or leave it" is more detrimental to the process than one without. Infact the players resolve has strengthened from the leagues actions during this.
And you know this because?

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11-15-2012, 02:52 PM
  #593
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Originally Posted by Kegsey View Post
Have you been paying attention at all? The League has been making all the proposals and concessions, frankly I'm surprised it took them this long to to say "take it or leave it." The PA refuses to work off of any proposal except for their ridiculous delinkage ideas. How is that negotiating?
The problem is perspective. The owners have made concessions from their perspective but in relation to the prior deal, they haven't many any as the players claim (though I believe the revenue sharing is in fact a concession in favour of the players).

This is the problem. The players are only willing to give 50/50 if everything else remains as it was. Unfortunately the 50/50 is a byproduct of the economic reality. The "concessions" are really the contracting issues vs revenue sharing.

50/50 is and always has been a foregone conclusion dictated by external factors. If the economy was still going strong as it had been in '04 with cheap oil and a strong US dollar, the old revenue shares would have been a non issue for the major sports leagues.

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11-15-2012, 02:53 PM
  #594
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Originally Posted by SidTheKid8787 View Post
I'd prefer to define whats unfair
An example being during a negotiation, one side says this is "take it or leave it"

How is that considered negotiating at all infact?
Every PA proposal has included delinkage. The unfaltering insistence on this framework is just as much 'take it or leave it' as what the league has done. The PA doesn't need to come out and say those words because their tactics are saying it for them. In fact, Dan Boyle, a current PA member said that BOTH sides were playing the 'my way or the highway' game.

So if you feel that isn't considered negotiating, then at the very least, we should agree that NEITHER side is negotiating and both are being unfair. Correct?

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11-15-2012, 02:53 PM
  #595
wondeROY
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Originally Posted by GordieHoweHatTrick View Post
Yet I'm sure you, much like myself, would LOVE to see NHL players get top tier salary, more than the NFL and MLB COMBINED because that should mean the NHL is doing great financially. Thing is the players need to understand that they would get top dollar in due time (as long as the league continues to grow)! I think, after losing the last CBA war (yet still making out like bandits in the long run) the players have been convinced by Fehr that the Owners will continue to dig into their pockets every time they negotiate which is why we see the players taking such a hardline stance, so they can't be bullied.
I'm definitely with you on that, I would love to see the NHL outpace the NFL and MLB, but the reality is that will never happen in the USA. And I'm sure players are aware of that; my biggest concern is that they simply don't care that the system isn't working for the owners. That to me is causing the biggest problem here, and it seems like a hurdle that is growing with every week that passes. Fehr is definitely not helping, but I think the players should/maybe are, smart enough to know better.

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Old
11-15-2012, 02:54 PM
  #596
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Originally Posted by guyincognito View Post
And you know this because?
You must not read what the players are saying on a daily basis...

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Old
11-15-2012, 02:55 PM
  #597
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So far it's been all give from the PA and no give from the NHL. When you negotiate with your boss do you start negotiations with a pay decrease and then hope to only make the decrease a smaller percent than initially offered? Does that make any sense to you?
So far it's been no give from the PA, only moving all the risk to the owners and guaranteeing themselves raises each year. The NHL has offered some small gives (hotel rooms++), made an attempt to pay the players their 'current salary' while sharing the risk with them, and tried to take away quite some contracting rights.

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11-15-2012, 02:55 PM
  #598
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As a fan, how can you not like 2-year ELC's and 5-year contract limits? To me, it means more player movement, young guys getting into real money earlier, and less dead-weight contracts. Come on, every fan here probably has someone on the roster of their favorite team that they wish was a couple of years further along in his contract because he simply didn't pan out, and isn't producing.

It would create more of a competitive environment amongst the players. If you're a rookie who is good enough to stay in the bigs, you get out of your ELC a year earlier. If not, too bad. And old vets should be looking over their shoulder at the young ones coming up. They better keep their skills and conditioning up because they'll need to sign a new contract every 5 years.

I mean isn't this the way it should be? Pay and position based more on performance, and less on potential or prospect?
The 2/5 setup looks scandalous when they ask for 8 years before UFA. I'd settle for the 5% up/down movement allowed in any one year of a contract. If you want to sign that guy for 10 years at 9.5 to 10.5 per season, knock yourself out. Just get rid of the last two years @1.2 million.

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11-15-2012, 02:55 PM
  #599
CerebralGenesis
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Originally Posted by Capt Zachy Poo View Post
I hope the players stay strong. They have no reason to give in to owners' demands - they bring in the cash. This is a situation where the players know their value and owners disagree, eventually the owners will give in when players go to KHL or a concurring league is founded.
What about the other 400 members of the union that won't have jobs any more? How long til this "new league" forms because the players will not make any more til then. So their 57%+1.7% of annual 0 will be worth the 50% of $3.3B?

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11-15-2012, 02:56 PM
  #600
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Originally Posted by SidTheKid8787 View Post
You must not read what the players are saying on a daily basis...
That solidifies that claim.

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