HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > National Hockey League Talk > Polls - (hockey-related only)
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2

Sakic/Crosby/Stamkos vs Jagr/Forsberg/OV

View Poll Results: Which Trio
Sakic/Crosby/Stamkos 102 56.35%
Jagr/Forsberg/OV 75 41.44%
Even 4 2.21%
Voters: 181. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
11-15-2012, 12:32 PM
  #101
Crabovski*
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Toronto
Posts: 742
vCash: 500
Ussually I dont go tie.. but this is too even IMO. If we're playing on intl ice than I go with Sids line but if were playing NHL ice, or pre 2005 rule, I go Foppas line.

Crabovski* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-15-2012, 12:37 PM
  #102
pdd
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,576
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by LancelotLink View Post
IMO it's more likely that Stamkos>Ovechkin than Crosby>Jagr when they are all finished.
IMO Me>Ovechkin is more likely than Crosby>Jagr.

pdd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-15-2012, 01:10 PM
  #103
TAnnala
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Oulu
Posts: 11,918
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by LancelotLink View Post
IMO it's more likely that Stamkos>Ovechkin than Crosby>Jagr when they are all finished.
Well, i am not on board on that one.
Stamkos sounds reasonable, altough it means he steps up a notch.

Crosby i dont find that reasonable. Given his track record and injuries i would go and make a bet basically on anything that Crosby never surpasses Jagr. The guy is on some peoples all-time 10 list. (Even if i don't agree with that)

TAnnala is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-15-2012, 01:17 PM
  #104
ToddRundgren
A Wizard A True Star
 
ToddRundgren's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Somerville MA
Country: United States
Posts: 12,926
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
Well, i am not on board on that one.
Stamkos sounds reasonable, altough it means he steps up a notch.

Crosby i dont find that reasonable. Given his track record and injuries i would go and make a bet basically on anything that Crosby never surpasses Jagr. The guy is on some peoples all-time 10 list. (Even if i don't agree with that)
My wording may have been a bit confusing. I don't think Crosby can surpass Jagr.

But I think Stamkos has a chance to pass Ovechkin. It will be very tough but I think he does it.

ToddRundgren is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
11-15-2012, 01:51 PM
  #105
TAnnala
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Oulu
Posts: 11,918
vCash: 500
Just out of curiosity i checked out the stat's and accolades of these players. I left out post-season. Not sure if other group would have gained some ground based on that. Stats show Jagr and Sakic to be very damn close to each others. Closer than i thought. Damn this is not too easy.

Here is group A:

A1: Physically dominant elite offensive center. Great skating abilities and responsible two-way player. A threat to win the scoring title every year. Borderline generational playmaking/passing abilities.
Serious injuries in past, likely to retire young/miss a lot of games.
Mediocore/good goalscoring abilities.

708 Games played:
249 Goals
636 Assists
885 Points

Adjusted stats:
278 Goals
699 Assists
977 Points

Calder trophy
Art Ross trophy
Hart trophy
3x First team all-star

A2: Physically dominant generational offensive RW. Elite vision/passing and elite goalscorer. Strong on skates and in corners. Practically impossible to knock off the puck. Favorite to win Art Ross year in and out.
Lazy defensive player, altough good back checker if demanded. Suits best on offensive role.

1346 Games played:
665 Goals
988 Assists
1653 Points

Adjusted stats:
715 Goals
1041 Assists
1756Points


5x Art Ross winner
3xLindsay/Pearson winner
Hart Trophy winner
7x First team all-star

A3: Physically dominant elite offensive LW. Generational/elite goalscoring abilities. Elite hitter and one of the best shooters in history. Somewhat lazy defensively. Most likely to win goal scoring race/threat to win Art Ross. Best suited for PP and offensive role.

553 Games Played:
339 Goals
340 Assists
679 Points

Adjusted stats:
364 Goals
352 Assists
716 Points

Art Ross winner
2x Rocket Richard winner
2x Hart trophy winner
3x Lindsay/Pearson winner
5x First team all-star

Group B:

B1: Elite offensive center with generational shooting ability. Especially wrist shot. Defensively sound, not great. Great captain material and leader type. Plays a lot of minutes and rarely loses any level of play. Threat for scoring race, but not the absolute best. Will mostly crack top-10 in scoring.

1378 Games played:
625 Goals
1016 Assists
1642 Points

Adjusted stats:
643 Goals
1036 Assists
1679 Points

Conn Smythe trophy
Hart trophy
Ted Lindsay award
Lady Byng award
3x First Team all-star

B2: Elite/generational offensive center with defensively average play. Plays good physical game. Elite shooting and playmaking skills. Will be threat to win Art Ross/goal scoring race. Very strong at skates. Hard to knock off balance and strong in corners. Serious injury issues. Most likely will retire early/miss lot of games.

434 Games played:
223 Goals
386 Assists
609 Points

Adjusted stats:
239 Goals
395 Assists
634 Points

Art Ross trophy
Hart trophy
Rocket Richard trophy (shared)
Lindsay award
1x First Team all-star

B3: Elite offensive center. Elite/generational goalscoring ability. Defensively average at best. Semi-physical game. Good skating. Elite shooting ability. Young at age, potential to improve. Will be threat to win goal scoring race every year. Top-10 in points year in and out.

325 Games played:
179 Goals
150 Assists
329 Points

Adjusted stats:
198 Goals
159 Assists
357 Points

2x Rocket Richard trophy (1x shared)

TAnnala is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-15-2012, 01:57 PM
  #106
TAnnala
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Oulu
Posts: 11,918
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by LancelotLink View Post
My wording may have been a bit confusing. I don't think Crosby can surpass Jagr.

But I think Stamkos has a chance to pass Ovechkin. It will be very tough but I think he does it.
No, my reading comprehension was low. Sorry, i get what you meant now.

And i agree.

TAnnala is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-15-2012, 02:17 PM
  #107
quoipourquoi
Moderator
Goaltender
 
quoipourquoi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Hockeytown, MI
Country: United States
Posts: 3,645
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
Stats show Jagr and Sakic to be very damn close to each others. Closer than i thought.
I know, right? I always have trouble ranking those two too far apart from each other, because while Jagr clearly had a better prime/peak, there weren't many (if any) years outside of 1998-2000 and 2006 in which I would rather have Jagr on my team than Sakic. Especially when considering Sakic's playoffs outside those same four seasons.

But Forsberg/Ovechkin vs. Crosby/Stamkos is a win for Team Jagr, in my opinion. Ovechkin was a step above Stamkos, even if the last two seasons haven't treated him as well as expected.

quoipourquoi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-15-2012, 03:54 PM
  #108
Czech Your Math
Registered User
 
Czech Your Math's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: bohemia
Country: Czech_ Republic
Posts: 3,719
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
Just out of curiosity i checked out the stat's and accolades of these players. I left out post-season. Not sure if other group would have gained some ground based on that. Stats show Jagr and Sakic to be very damn close to each others. Closer than i thought.
Sakic's more than two years younger and began his NHL two years earlier. During the higher scoring years of '89-92, either Jagr was not in the NHL yet, or was given limited opportunity (ice/PP time), while Sakic was on a bottom dweller with full opportunity and closer to his prime level. This gives him a huge advantage thru '92: 367-126. Jagr playing in the KHL for 3 seasons after 2008 (and current lockout) prevented the negation of that early advantage.

Czech Your Math is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-15-2012, 04:05 PM
  #109
billybudd
5 Mike Rupps
 
billybudd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 12,057
vCash: 500
This is awful tough.

Went with the first group because its a collection of better centers. Can more easily move one of them to wing than you could put Jagr or Ovechkin at center.

billybudd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-15-2012, 04:08 PM
  #110
billybudd
5 Mike Rupps
 
billybudd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 12,057
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
Sakic's more than two years younger and began his NHL two years earlier. During the higher scoring years of '89-92, either Jagr was not in the NHL yet, or was given limited opportunity (ice/PP time), while Sakic was on a bottom dweller with full opportunity and closer to his prime level. This gives him a huge advantage thru '92: 367-126. Jagr playing in the KHL for 3 seasons after 2008 (and current lockout) prevented the negation of that early advantage.
Yeah, Jagr was on the third line until either 93 or 94. Pretty sure he wasn't on the top powerplay unit until 94 at the earliest.

And yeah, he missed a few years overseas. Really, he would have had a good shot ending up #2 all-time in points, if he hadn't.

billybudd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-15-2012, 05:05 PM
  #111
JAS 39 Gripen
Registered User
 
JAS 39 Gripen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Stockholm
Country: Sweden
Posts: 1,324
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
Just out of curiosity i checked out the stat's and accolades of these players. I left out post-season. Not sure if other group would have gained some ground based on that. Stats show Jagr and Sakic to be very damn close to each others. Closer than i thought. Damn this is not too easy.

Here is group A:

A1: Physically dominant elite offensive center. Great skating abilities and responsible two-way player. A threat to win the scoring title every year. Borderline generational playmaking/passing abilities.
Serious injuries in past, likely to retire young/miss a lot of games.
Mediocore/good goalscoring abilities.

708 Games played:
249 Goals
636 Assists
885 Points

Adjusted stats:
278 Goals
699 Assists
977 Points

Calder trophy
Art Ross trophy
Hart trophy
3x First team all-star

A2: Physically dominant generational offensive RW. Elite vision/passing and elite goalscorer. Strong on skates and in corners. Practically impossible to knock off the puck. Favorite to win Art Ross year in and out.
Lazy defensive player, altough good back checker if demanded. Suits best on offensive role.

1346 Games played:
665 Goals
988 Assists
1653 Points

Adjusted stats:
715 Goals
1041 Assists
1756Points


5x Art Ross winner
3xLindsay/Pearson winner
Hart Trophy winner
7x First team all-star

A3: Physically dominant elite offensive LW. Generational/elite goalscoring abilities. Elite hitter and one of the best shooters in history. Somewhat lazy defensively. Most likely to win goal scoring race/threat to win Art Ross. Best suited for PP and offensive role.

553 Games Played:
339 Goals
340 Assists
679 Points

Adjusted stats:
364 Goals
352 Assists
716 Points

Art Ross winner
2x Rocket Richard winner
2x Hart trophy winner
3x Lindsay/Pearson winner
5x First team all-star

Group B:

B1: Elite offensive center with generational shooting ability. Especially wrist shot. Defensively sound, not great. Great captain material and leader type. Plays a lot of minutes and rarely loses any level of play. Threat for scoring race, but not the absolute best. Will mostly crack top-10 in scoring.

1378 Games played:
625 Goals
1016 Assists
1642 Points

Adjusted stats:
643 Goals
1036 Assists
1679 Points

Conn Smythe trophy
Hart trophy
Ted Lindsay award
Lady Byng award
3x First Team all-star

B2: Elite/generational offensive center with defensively average play. Plays good physical game. Elite shooting and playmaking skills. Will be threat to win Art Ross/goal scoring race. Very strong at skates. Hard to knock off balance and strong in corners. Serious injury issues. Most likely will retire early/miss lot of games.

434 Games played:
223 Goals
386 Assists
609 Points

Adjusted stats:
239 Goals
395 Assists
634 Points

Art Ross trophy
Hart trophy
Rocket Richard trophy (shared)
Lindsay award
1x First Team all-star

B3: Elite offensive center. Elite/generational goalscoring ability. Defensively average at best. Semi-physical game. Good skating. Elite shooting ability. Young at age, potential to improve. Will be threat to win goal scoring race every year. Top-10 in points year in and out.

325 Games played:
179 Goals
150 Assists
329 Points

Adjusted stats:
198 Goals
159 Assists
357 Points

2x Rocket Richard trophy (1x shared)
ahaha why did you leave out the POs? how convenient

JAS 39 Gripen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-15-2012, 06:22 PM
  #112
quoipourquoi
Moderator
Goaltender
 
quoipourquoi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Hockeytown, MI
Country: United States
Posts: 3,645
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
Sakic's more than two years younger
Joe Sakic is older than Jaromir Jagr by more than two years and seven months...

quoipourquoi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-15-2012, 07:37 PM
  #113
Czech Your Math
Registered User
 
Czech Your Math's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: bohemia
Country: Czech_ Republic
Posts: 3,719
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Joe Sakic is older than Jaromir Jagr by more than two years and seven months...
Thanks, that's what I meant to say... brain took a wrong turn at Albuquerque.

Czech Your Math is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-15-2012, 07:44 PM
  #114
King Woodballs
MVP! MVP! MVP!
 
King Woodballs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Your Mind
Posts: 33,127
vCash: 50
Sakic is the best player on that list, and crosby is the best player playing now
So that one

King Woodballs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-15-2012, 07:59 PM
  #115
Ferros
Registered User
 
Ferros's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Country: Sweden
Posts: 393
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by King Woodballs View Post
Sakic is the best player on that list, and crosby is the best player playing now
So that one
I don't agree with Sakic over Forsberg but I can understand if people have different opinions there but how can you say that Sakic was better than Jagr?

Ferros is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-15-2012, 09:27 PM
  #116
livewell68
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 7,027
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferros View Post
I don't agree with Sakic over Forsberg but I can understand if people have different opinions there but how can you say that Sakic was better than Jagr?
Jagr is not very popular for some people.

People either love him or hate him. Most people saying things like Sakic, Forsberg or even Crosby being better than Jagr never actually saw him in his prime.

If people think Jagr was dominant in 2005-06 (123 Pts) then they are missing on how truly dominant he was in Pittsburgh. He was just as strong on the puck then but he was much faster and his stamina and endurance (fitness) was legendary.

Without exaggerating this is how I see Jagr being (in his prime);

He's the fastest player, best stickhandler, strongest player on the puck, best at scoring/ setting up players of the bunch. There is no way any of the players come close except for maybe Sakic and Forsberg and even then they were a level below him.

livewell68 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-15-2012, 10:01 PM
  #117
CanadianHockey
Smith - Alfie
 
CanadianHockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Ottawa
Country: Canada
Posts: 28,806
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferros View Post
I don't agree with Sakic over Forsberg but I can understand if people have different opinions there but how can you say that Sakic was better than Jagr?
Perception over here that Jagr mailed in his last few Pens seasons and completely mailed in his time with the Caps.

__________________
CanadianHockey________ __ __________Sens, Oilers, and Team Canada
CanadianHockey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-15-2012, 11:47 PM
  #118
Czech Your Math
Registered User
 
Czech Your Math's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: bohemia
Country: Czech_ Republic
Posts: 3,719
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadianHockey View Post
Perception over here that Jagr mailed in his last few Pens seasons
How does a player mail it in while both winning the Ross and being nominated for the Hart in each of his last 4 seasons with the Pens... including a Hart (second by one point to Pronger and second to Hasek) and 2 Pearsons... when the competition included Sakic, Lindros, Forsberg, Selanne, Kariya, Bure, Hasek, Roy, Brodeur, etc. ... and lead a mediocre team to the playoffs each of the 4 seasons, where they upset the #1 seed in '99, the #2 seed in '00 and went to the ECF in '01 (with a goalie who had 9 total games of NHL experience entering the playoffs).

When perception doeesn't match facts, it's myth.

Czech Your Math is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-16-2012, 12:54 AM
  #119
TAnnala
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Oulu
Posts: 11,918
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JAS 39 Gripen View Post
ahaha why did you leave out the POs? how convenient
How so? I was just lazy and play-offs are hard to judge. Stamkos has not had any time to build up his resume. I feel that it would be a bit unfair to compare post-seasons too.

TAnnala is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-16-2012, 01:02 AM
  #120
TAnnala
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Oulu
Posts: 11,918
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferros View Post
I don't agree with Sakic over Forsberg but I can understand if people have different opinions there but how can you say that Sakic was better than Jagr?
I really don't have any other explanation to it that Jagr is disliked by many and Sakic is golden Canadian boy. The gap between them is not miles, but it is clear and everyone with no bias should be able to see it.

But there is a lot of posters here who assume Yzerman to be third best offensive player ever since he scored 155. (This is not a knock on Steve, but he gets overrated here by some)

TAnnala is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-16-2012, 12:45 PM
  #121
Harry Waters
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 156
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadianHockey View Post
Perception over here that Jagr mailed in his last few Pens seasons and completely mailed in his time with the Caps.
But when the player who "mailed it in" is still winning scoring titles, isn't that even more assuring that he is better than those compared to him? I'm not arguing that Jagr's seasons in Washington were good (they weren't) or that he had no issues, but he should have done more than enough before that time to be considered the better player, shouldn't he?

Harry Waters is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-16-2012, 02:10 PM
  #122
Legionnaire
Kill! Jeff, Kill!!!
 
Legionnaire's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: LA-LA Land
Country: United States
Posts: 35,535
vCash: 500
Even

__________________
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain
Legionnaire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-16-2012, 06:31 PM
  #123
livewell68
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 7,027
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Waters View Post
But when the player who "mailed it in" is still winning scoring titles, isn't that even more assuring that he is better than those compared to him? I'm not arguing that Jagr's seasons in Washington were good (they weren't) or that he had no issues, but he should have done more than enough before that time to be considered the better player, shouldn't he?
They were pretty good. For all of his mailing it in, he was still a PPG player in his 2 and half years in Washington and was actually 5th in scoring in his first season with them despite missing 13 games and playing on a completely different team.

livewell68 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-16-2012, 06:48 PM
  #124
Harry Waters
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 156
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
They were pretty good. For all of his mailing it in, he was still a PPG player in his 2 and half years in Washington and was actually 5th in scoring in his first season with them despite missing 13 games and playing on a completely different team.
Of course these seasons are not "bad" in the literal sense of the word. But for Jagr and especially compared to his previous seasons, they were below average. Everyone new that he was capable of more, as he showed in 2005/06.

Harry Waters is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:55 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.