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Does Anybody Here Remember Vera Lynn? (CBA & Lockout Discussion) XXVIII ‎

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Old
11-15-2012, 02:56 PM
  #601
habfan1968
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SIDthekid8787


in considering the actuality that the NHLPA has no agreement in place, removing the old CBA as an argument what in the NHL's most recent offer is not fair to the players?

5 year cap on term? give the player more flexibility in where he wants to play more times over his career.

2 year ELC, less time making lower money than RFA status contract ?

5 -10 % variance year to year so the front or back loaded contracts don't circumvent the cap?

Waht are you saying is unfair to the players?

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11-15-2012, 02:57 PM
  #602
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Originally Posted by albator71 View Post
But that's just it, the NHL is not interested in meeting half way on contract issues, it's their way or the the highway, there's no middle ground with the owners, they want their cake and eat it too.
I disagree. I believe they are willing to flex on some of the contract issues. The problem is that the players aren't countering.

I personally believe the owners would move from the 5 year max to something managable like 7-8 years and are also probably willing to move off the arbitration rules.

Heck if the players entered into a serious dialogue, I bet they might even get that extra year back too.

The contract max, 5% variance and the 2 year ELC is all they really want. The rest are there so that they can come to a middle ground.

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11-15-2012, 02:57 PM
  #603
SidTheKid8787
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Originally Posted by HockeyCrazed101 View Post
Every PA proposal has included delinkage. The unfaltering insistence on this framework is just as much 'take it or leave it' as what the league has done. The PA doesn't need to come out and say those words because their tactics are saying it for them. In fact, Dan Boyle, a current PA member said that BOTH sides were playing the 'my way or the highway' game.

So if you feel that isn't considered negotiating, then at the very least, we should agree that NEITHER side is negotiating and both are being unfair. Correct?
Nope. Cuz i've seen proposals with slight delinkage that make sense. DELINKAGE!!! Everyone say it with me now!

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11-15-2012, 02:57 PM
  #604
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Originally Posted by Capt Zachy Poo View Post
I hope the players stay strong. They have no reason to give in to owners' demands - they bring in the cash. This is a situation where the players know their value and owners disagree, eventually the owners will give in when players go to KHL or a concurring league is founded.
The reason is to get paid, the few owners of teams that make a significant profit don't need their NHL profits nearly as much as the players need their salaries.

By the time this new league can pay 700 players an average 2.4 million dollars, most of these current players will be retired.

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11-15-2012, 02:57 PM
  #605
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Daly is the using the Proskauer Rose script

Change the names and its the same script. NBA backed off and a deal was struck.

Quote:
Sources said that the union did not conduct a formal vote of the players assembled in the room Tuesday, opting instead for an informal "everyone agrees" consensus that authorizes Hunter and Fisher to accept a 50-50 split of basketball related income in future negotiations as long as the league makes some concessions on some of the remaining system issues. But sources briefed on the owners' thinking insisted to ESPN.com that there will be no further budging from the owners, no matter how close a deal seems on paper. Wednesday will be the 132nd day of the second lockout in NBA history to bleed into the regular season.

"It's sad," one ownership source said. "I think they've seen their best offer."
http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/72...-further-talks

Quote:
Bill Daly discouraged after reading own quotes about how NHL will not meet with PA unless players agree to league proposal on table.
https://twitter.com/NYP_Brooksie/sta...78822526640128

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Old
11-15-2012, 02:59 PM
  #606
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Originally Posted by SidTheKid8787 View Post
You must not read what the players are saying on a daily basis...
Which players? The same 40 guys on twitter?

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Old
11-15-2012, 03:00 PM
  #607
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Originally Posted by santiclaws View Post
Let's take a little quiz. The lawyer for the owners, speaking on the record and knowing the players will see his quote:

A. Is being completely honest
B. Is not being entirely accurate
C. Lying through his teeth in an attempt to increase pressure on the other side
D. Had just ingested copious amounts of peyote and had no idea what he was saying
Whenever you see a quote from Bettman/Daly/Fehr it's because they want it out there. It's not like they're being grilled by 60 minutes.

That doesn't automatically mean that what they want out there is false.

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11-15-2012, 03:00 PM
  #608
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Originally Posted by SidTheKid8787 View Post
You must not read what the players are saying on a daily basis...
They've been lying or confused since the beginning, not sure why anyone would pay attention to them.

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11-15-2012, 03:01 PM
  #609
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Originally Posted by Alesle View Post
So far it's been no give from the PA, only moving all the risk to the owners and guaranteeing themselves raises each year. The NHL has offered some small gives (hotel rooms++), made an attempt to pay the players their 'current salary' while sharing the risk with them, and tried to take away quite some contracting rights.
Lol how can you say that with a straight face when the players agreed to go from 57% to 50% (yes, they agreed to it, even if it may take a couple of years to get there), which is estimated to over a billion $ over the life of the next CBA, depending on growth.

All the NHL did was realize that their outrageous first offer was.... outrageous

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11-15-2012, 03:01 PM
  #610
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Originally Posted by Capt Zachy Poo View Post
I hope the players stay strong. They have no reason to give in to owners' demands - they bring in the cash. This is a situation where the players know their value and owners disagree, eventually the owners will give in when players go to KHL or a concurring league is founded.
Yes, let the current nhl'ers go to the KHL and see how much they make there, that will be fun to watch.

Do you understand the current business model does not make any sense to NHL owners?
If you are currently employed, and your boss was losing money every single year, and yet you not only made money every year but got raises every year, do you think that would continue?

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11-15-2012, 03:01 PM
  #611
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Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
Daly is the using the Proskauer Rose script

Change the names and its the same script. NBA backed off and a deal was struck.



http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/72...-further-talks



https://twitter.com/NYP_Brooksie/sta...78822526640128
Why do people quote Larry Brooks on this site?

The league didn't say they won't meet with the PA unless they agree to their proposals. The league said that they have no reason to meet because they're done making proposals. The league is telling the PA that if they want something done, they better come to them next time with something because the league won't be bringing anything new to the table.

Whether that's an empty threat remains to be seen but Brooks comment is pure spin.

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Old
11-15-2012, 03:01 PM
  #612
SidTheKid8787
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Originally Posted by guyincognito View Post
Which players? The same 40 guys on twitter?
Sid's not on twitter. Shall i name some more?

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Old
11-15-2012, 03:02 PM
  #613
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
Daly is the using the Proskauer Rose script

Change the names and its the same script. NBA backed off and a deal was struck.



http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/72...-further-talks



https://twitter.com/NYP_Brooksie/sta...78822526640128
Really don't understand the correlation here.

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Old
11-15-2012, 03:02 PM
  #614
albator71
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Originally Posted by Rinzler View Post
I disagree. I believe they are willing to flex on some of the contract issues. The problem is that the players aren't countering.

I personally believe the owners would move from the 5 year max to something managable like 7-8 years and are also probably willing to move off the arbitration rules.

Heck if the players entered into a serious dialogue, I bet they might even get that extra year back too.

The contract max, 5% variance and the 2 year ELC is all they really want. The rest are there so that they can come to a middle ground.
Last time they meet, it's not what Bettman said, he told the PA that they were past "give and take" on that issue.

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Old
11-15-2012, 03:03 PM
  #615
guyincognito
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Originally Posted by SidTheKid8787 View Post
Sid's not on twitter. Shall i name some more?
You know Sidney Crosby? You understand public consumption right? George Parros is an Econ Major from Princeton and has retweeted some awfully dumb stuff.

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11-15-2012, 03:05 PM
  #616
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Originally Posted by SidTheKid8787 View Post
Sid's not on twitter. Shall i name some more?
You probably should because they can't sound worse than Crosby.

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Old
11-15-2012, 03:05 PM
  #617
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Originally Posted by SidTheKid8787 View Post
You must not read what the players are saying on a daily basis...
The comments that we here are from a very small sample of the membership, and many of the comments are from known staunch union supporters.

Its pretty obvious that these guys are being told exactly what to say because the comments are all the same, almost word for word. It's a pretty transparent propaganda campaign.

I can't take the few comments we hear as representative of what the entire membership is thinking.

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11-15-2012, 03:05 PM
  #618
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Originally Posted by guyincognito View Post
You know Sidney Crosby? You understand public consumption right? George Parros is an Econ Major from Princeton and has retweeted some awfully dumb stuff.
Maybe he is Sidney Crosby, it would make sense considering some of the stuff he's spewing.

I hope we get some movement on both sides this weekend. Thanksgiving is going to be great to see the players say its a fake deadline only to see another month wiped out. That will help out on the Christmas shopping lists.

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Old
11-15-2012, 03:05 PM
  #619
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SidTheKid8787 View Post
Sid's not on twitter. Shall i name some more?
Crosby said the owners were in no rush when clearly they are the only ones to have made lateral moves to get the discussions going.
Crosby has no idea what's going on in these talks.

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Old
11-15-2012, 03:06 PM
  #620
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The fact that this is a financial stalemate, and not a fundamental one, is what pisses me off most.

However, I suppose that means this is technically the easiest stalemate to resolve since eventually one party will reach their breaking point, and both parties need each other. This is why I've always felt this isn't a negotiation so much as a game of chicken, and I think both sides have a line in the sand where they intend to swerve, and I bet both lines are before the entire season is lost.
I think the financial divide is largely behind us now. It's the contract issues that are the sticking point. More or less the players and league agree in principal on a 50/50 split and the league has funded the decrease. They don't publicly say so but they agree on that, which is why they've moved on to the next and seemingly larger issue of contract issues.

The players have seen their last cap circumvention retirement contract. I am more sure of that going into this than the 50/50 split.

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Old
11-15-2012, 03:07 PM
  #621
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Originally Posted by SidTheKid8787 View Post
Nope. Cuz i've seen proposals with slight delinkage that make sense. DELINKAGE!!! Everyone say it with me now!
Maybe I should say hypocrite with you because that's what your argument is making you look like. I don't care whether you agree with the players idea of delinkage. YOU said that when you approach a negotiation with a 'take it or leave it' stance, that isn't negotiating.

The players continually push the delinkage without fail and show no compromise of letting go of that framework, essentially portraying that as a 'take it or leave it' concept, you say that it makes sense. But their tactic goes against the very thing you said a negotiation is about.

So you only want to throw stones when it suits you? Maybe hypocrite does make more sense than delinkage. Shall I start the hypocrite chant off for you or would you like the honours?

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Old
11-15-2012, 03:07 PM
  #622
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Originally Posted by CerebralGenesis View Post
What about the other 400 members of the union that won't have jobs any more? How long til this "new league" forms because the players will not make any more til then. So their 57%+1.7% of annual 0 will be worth the 50% of $3.3B?
If the situation keeps on going, I wouldnt be surprised if an idea of a new league gets brought up.

Other staff will find a new job, the players wont quit hockey, you know. If a vacuum is left, it will be filled.

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Old
11-15-2012, 03:09 PM
  #623
santiclaws
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Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
Whenever you see a quote from Bettman/Daly/Fehr it's because they want it out there. It's not like they're being grilled by 60 minutes.

That doesn't automatically mean that what they want out there is false.
True enough, but the problem is that we have no way of reliably judging which one it is. I tend to believe the answer is usually going to be "B" or "C."

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Old
11-15-2012, 03:10 PM
  #624
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Originally Posted by HockeyCrazed101 View Post
Maybe I should say hypocrite with you because that's what your argument is making you look like. I don't care whether you agree with the players idea of delinkage. YOU said that when you approach a negotiation with a 'take it or leave it' stance, that isn't negotiating.

The players continually push the delinkage without fail and show no compromise of letting go of that framework, essentially portraying that as a 'take it or leave it' concept, you say that it makes sense. But their tactic goes against the very thing you said a negotiation is about.

So you only want to throw stones when it suits you? Maybe hypocrite does make more sense than delinkage. Shall I start the hypocrite chant off for you or would you like the honours?
I've never heard the terms "take it or leave it" with PA proposals.

And i said when you use it, it's DETRIMENTAL to the process of negotiating.

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11-15-2012, 03:12 PM
  #625
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Originally Posted by SidTheKid8787 View Post
I've never heard the terms "take it or leave it" with PA proposals.
Ahh, so its just the words that bother you.

The PA offering only delinked proposals is essentially saying the words without actually saying them. But this is ok with you, since, they didnt actually say them.


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